tefl or tesol in china

Mr. Loverman · 13-09-2011 10:47am

warofthebutton wrote: »

thanks a million both of ye
Daves cafe is a bit of a jungle but im getting used to it. Did any1 here go through a recruiter or do people tend more to do it themselves when it comes to TEFL in China?

It doesn't really matter. Just come here on a tourist visa, do a few job interviews, and decide which school sounds the best.

Unless you're an unbelievable freak you'll be offered every job you interview for.

18-09-2011 5:45pm

Mr. Loverman... in regards to your comment about the majority of FTs here being freaks, I would strongly disagree. Sure, there are some oddballs, but very few. Frankly China is such a shock to the system the first time that most freaks move on to easier places like Korea... Most Fts I have met here are quite normal people.. and quite young too. (I'm a minority here in Xian being over 30)

Although it should be noted that I have very few foreign friends here. I know loads from the expat bars, but I prefer to spend the majority of my time with the Chinese.

Lastly, some schools will be choosy because they can be. The chain schools will accept just about anyone although non-whites are still sometimes refused. Be careful of promoting the belief that being white and a native speaker are enough everywhere. That was true years ago, but china is changing and so too is the english teaching industry.

warofthebutton wrote: »

I'm thinking of going to China to do the whole teaching thing, I already have my TEFL course in the bag. I was wondering if any1 here has had any experience with the English First company? they seem to have 90% of the job postings..
Im looking at Dalian and Hangzhou,
Any help would be greatly appreciated you heroes

EF are just a major chain here in China. The vast majority of job postings on the net are covered by EF, Hampson, Aston etc. All these being Chain schools offering high hours and low wages. The standard of the schools themselves and how they treat with their FTs depends entirely on the particular school in question and its management. A change in management can improve or destroy a previously great school. Asking current staff is the only real way of finding out the situation, although be aware that it is their interests that you come. More teachers generally means less workload for the "older" teachers. Do read your contract and don't sign anything you're uncomfortable with. Get them to change it, and get the chinese version translated independently. They have a habit of having changes in the chinese version, and its the chinese version that counts in china.

As for Dalian, its a great city but way too cold at winter. Too many russians too, and locals will regularly mistake you for one. The problem with that is there is a bit of bad feeling towards Russian crime being brought in.

Hangzhou is also a fairly nice city although the heat has been mentioned. Don't understimate the effect such temperatures will have on you.. remember that you'll likely be teaching long hours in a room with little to no air con. Unless you're in a richer private school or some of the better universities. Hangzhou has a reputation of having some of the best looking women in China though...

Why these particular cities? There are plenty of 2nd tier cities in China that are just as good and without the temperature issues.

Mr. Loverman · 18-09-2011 6:20pm

klaz, we will have to agree to disagree! The strangest people I have ever met are English teachers in China, and my background is in IT which is freak central.

However I will say I am happy for these people. Back home they would probably have no chance with women, but in China they can easily get a nice girlfriend. So fair play to them for doing something and not sitting at home getting depressed.

ArphaRima · 18-09-2011 6:41pm

I live in Shanghai and I often spend 3000 on a Saturday night out, nevermind a month!

English teachers are generally looked down on within the expat community but I wouldnt let that put you off. It's more like we/they poke fun than anything else. If you're young you'll fit right in.

Seriously the weirdos here. I reckon half of them must come here because they can't make friends or meet women at home. They are that strange.

When people talk about the high percentage of weirdos in teaching that also applies across the entire expat spectrum. Its the 40 year olds trying to date their students that give the teachers a bad rep.

This place is full of bullsh1tters, freaks and weirdos. But there is also a huge international community of well educated, ambitious and generally successful people.

Do your homework, negotiate your terms and be prepared to walk away. Chinese budget accomodation would leave the average Irish student in tears after a few weeks. It is not as cheap as you would think either as one poster noted. Shanghai is around Dublin prices in mainstream places.

As long as you have a patient temperament and an open mind you'll love it; just do it on your terms.

18-09-2011 9:09pm

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

klaz, we will have to agree to disagree! The strangest people I have ever met are English teachers in China, and my background is in IT which is freak central.

I too have worked in IT, although my background is more finance orientated. Plenty of weirdo's there too. Generally, the people who choose to live in China are a little odd. We have to be to cope with the sheer amount of hassle thats involved even if i can safely say I dont want to live anywhere else. (most normal people I have met have broken their contracts and ran home to enjoy all the things they miss about home)

Teaching in China isn't like teaching anywhere else... You definitely need a certain mindset to enjoy it, and frankly being a little odd is a plus.

However I will say I am happy for these people. Back home they would probably have no chance with women, but in China they can easily get a nice girlfriend. So fair play to them for doing something and not sitting at home getting depressed.

Ahh those lovely stereotypes... which are outdated. Some may have problems, others dont. The very people who have issues at home will have some of the same issues here. Once more you seem to be living in the past. Chinese women have more money, options, and frankly chinese men have improved a thousandfold so foreigners aren't the wonderful attraction they used to be for all chinese women. Many like us, many are curious about us, some lust after us and many will outright ignore us.

I had issues getting women in Ireland. I had zero issues getting women in Australia, Continental europe, or the US. I have minimal issues getting women here in China. TBH my main problem is finding women past the age of 24 for a relationship... they're all either married/serious relationships or working 24/7.

fluffer wrote:

I live in Shanghai and I often spend 3000 on a Saturday night out, nevermind a month!

I spend about 3k a month in Xi'an. I could spend a lot more if I wished but there's no real need. And I go clubbing 4-5 nights a week. But then the major cities like Shanghai are really expensive especially if you enjoy the nightlife.

When people talk about the high percentage of weirdos in teaching that also applies across the entire expat spectrum. Its the 40 year olds trying to date their students that give the teachers a bad rep.

The problem is that if one teacher in one university does this then suddenly we're all doing so. I know of 4 teachers who have dated their students. Only 1 of them has dated them more than once. From what I gather its an experience either thats awful or if you're very very very lucky, wonderful. I don't date my students... and I'm not alone in this. There are plenty of opportunities but for many of us the complications involved are too messy considering how easy it is to get casual sex. There are always a few teachers that will take advantage of very impressionable young people.

But then reputations are easy to get here... and alas we're guilty by association.

Mr. Loverman · 19-09-2011 3:59am

If you can't spot the sucker at the poker table… it's probably you...?

19-09-2011 10:02am

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

If you can't spot the sucker at the poker table… it's probably you...?

And you were highlighting weirdo teachers in china? :rolleyes:

Mr. Loverman · 19-09-2011 2:48pm

Yes, I am a little embarrassed by the freaks I have met here. They are giving westerners a bad name. Of course there are some decent, normal people here, but there is a disproportionate number of serious weirdos.

WindSock · 21-09-2011 2:27pm

Right, applying for this CELTA thing. Any recommendations where, seems to be a few in Dublin, or are they all pretty much the same?

Mr. Loverman · 21-09-2011 3:41pm

WindSock wrote: »

Right, applying for this CELTA thing. Any recommendations where, seems to be a few in Dublin, or are they all pretty much the same?

You don't need a CELTA qualification to get a teaching job in China. IMO it's a waste of money, unless you reckon you would feel more confident in the classroom having an actual qualification. To give you a bit of perspective, a lot of the English teachers here aren't even native English speakers - they're just white!

Shelli2 · 21-09-2011 8:16pm

If your doing a CELTA course, try to do it in a well established Cambridge Exam center, they have the best connections with Cambridge Uni and so get the best resources, first job offers etc. Also, don't pay more than €1500, I know some places are charging more. Ask how many students are on the course, 12 is the max there should be.

I don't want to name and names on here, as I work in the industry myself. But if you'd like to PM I could give you my views on the schools running the courses.

HTH.

ETA: Like Mr. Loverman said it's prob not necessary to have CELTA or TEFL to get a job in China, but IMO with one you may get a better job, and if your planning on a future career then it's worth while. If your gettting away for a couple of years and just want to travel and see the sites and have a career plan to come back to, then it's prob not worth while. Weigh up your long term plans

Funglegunk · 26-09-2011 1:16pm

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

You don't need a CELTA qualification to get a teaching job in China. IMO it's a waste of money, unless you reckon you would feel more confident in the classroom having an actual qualification. To give you a bit of perspective, a lot of the English teachers here aren't even native English speakers - they're just white!

Really? Most schools I know strictly only hire native English speakers, giving preference to Canadians and Americans (one Irish lad was told to tell the parents of the kids that he was Canadian).

Mr. Loverman · 26-09-2011 2:58pm

Funglegunk wrote: »

Really? Most schools I know strictly only hire native English speakers, giving preference to Canadians and Americans (one Irish lad was told to tell the parents of the kids that he was Canadian).

Strange, my experience is different! For example, I know a couple of African lads with bad English, and a Polish lad with good English who are teaching here. I guess it depends on the school...?

kraggy · 27-09-2011 8:18am

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

I am currently living in Beijing. My girlfriend is an English teacher.

Current situation:

Beginner teachers should expect to get 12000 - 15000 RMB per month for 25 hours work a week.
Do not accept their accommodation; get your own in case things go bad and they kick you out!
You do not need a TEFL qualification. Officially you do but no one cares.

Just come here and look for a job. You will be offered every job you interview for. They cannot get enough English teachers here.

The biggest negative about teaching English here (according to people I know) is the other teachers. Most are absolute freaks who would be total social outcasts in Europe or the US.

12000? Isn't that around 1300 euro?

That's a lot more than the 200rmb mentioned as a salary in other parts of China.

How far would that go in Beijing? Could you save any of that?

Anyone know what's the job situation like in Shanghai and how much can one earn there (as a Teacher with experience)?

Thanks.

Funglegunk · 27-09-2011 10:12am

kraggy wrote: »

12000? Isn't that around 1300 euro?

That's a lot more than the 200rmb mentioned as a salary in other parts of China.

How far would that go in Beijing? Could you save any of that?

Anyone know what's the job situation like in Shanghai and how much can one earn there (as a Teacher with experience)?

Thanks.

I presume you mean €200, not 200RMB! I know a guy in Dalian who earns about 13,000 RMB for 25 hours a week with two years teaching experience, but he managed that by being so good at his job in the previous year (he speaks Chinese and met with the kids' parents after every class, this seems to be the fastest way to get a raise!).

Most teachers I know start off at 7000 RMB.

kraggy · 27-09-2011 2:12pm

Yeah sorry, meant €200.

Would you be able to save much on 7000RMB in Shanghai. How does it compare to the cost of living in Ireland?

What's Shanghai like to live in I wonder? Would it be one of the more interesting cities in China?

daithimacgroin · 28-09-2011 4:47am

7000rmb in shanghai would suck.
7000rmb with accommodation included in a 2nd tier city however would be more than plenty to enjoy urself

Mr. Loverman · 28-09-2011 8:24am

Chinese people in Beijing aim to spend somewhere between 15 - 25 kuai per day, excluding rent and bills. 15 - 25 kuai is EUR 1.50 - 2.50.

For example, in college today (in Beijing) I spent 4.5 kuai (45 cent) on lunch. This is neither really cheap nor really expensive. I had rice, tofu & onions.

So you can imagine how little you need to survive day to day here. Bear in mind it is quite normal for a Chinese person to earn less than 4000 kuai per month in Beijing. English teachers earn about three times this.

kraggy · 28-09-2011 2:24pm

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Chinese people in Beijing aim to spend somewhere between 15 - 25 kuai per day, excluding rent and bills. 15 - 25 kuai is EUR 1.50 - 2.50.

For example, in college today (in Beijing) I spent 4.5 kuai (45 cent) on lunch. This is neither really cheap nor really expensive. I had rice, tofu & onions.

So you can imagine how little you need to survive day to day here. Bear in mind it is quite normal for a Chinese person to earn less than 4000 kuai per month in Beijing. English teachers earn about three times this.

Thanks for that Loverman.

So a teacher could save a good bit. Any idea how much a teacher earns on average? And how much could one realistically save out of that?

And how much would rent for a decent apartment be?

Finally, do you enjoy living in Beijing? Which is considered the most happening city in China? Beijing? Shanghai?

ArphaRima · 28-09-2011 4:54pm

Hold on. A student is not a teacher.

You are there for employment. 7000RMB is not very much at all. I wouldnt recommend accepting a salary like that in Shanghai. I dont know Beijing enough to know if it would work there, but I doubt it.

Savings? Not a chance.

7000rmb with accommodation included in a 2nd tier city however would be more than plenty to enjoy urself

1 - 7000RMB net. 2 - Free accomodation. 3- 2nd tier city or lower.
With those 3 conditions met you might be alright. Listen to what is being said.

http://rightsite.asia/en/article/defining-chinas-second-and-third-tier-cities
In a recent document, AC Nielsen defined the tiers as follows:
1st tier: Key cities - Shanghai, Beijing, Guangzhou and Chengdu
2nd tier: Secondary provincial capitals (consisting of 23 cities)
3rd tier: Prefecture or county level city capitals

kraggy · 29-09-2011 1:54am

Thanks guys,

Ok so what is the going rate for an experienced teacher in Shanghai? Is Shanghai a good place to live do you know or are there more happening places to live in in China? How would it compare to Hong Kong?

And how much could one save out that going rate whatever it is?

Mr. Loverman · 29-09-2011 11:31am

kraggy wrote: »

So a teacher could save a good bit. Any idea how much a teacher earns on average? And how much could one realistically save out of that?

In Beijing you'll earn at least EUR 1200 per month. You can save half of that while living something of a hybrid Asian/Western lifestyle.

kraggy wrote: »

And how much would rent for a decent apartment be?

A room somewhere like Dongzhimen (fancy area) will cost about EUR 230 per month.

kraggy wrote: »

Finally, do you enjoy living in Beijing? Which is considered the most happening city in China? Beijing? Shanghai?

I love Beijing.

I don't know where is the most happening city, but for quality of life check out Dalian & Qingdao.

kraggy · 30-09-2011 5:05am

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

In Beijing you'll earn at least EUR 1200 per month. You can save half of that while living something of a hybrid Asian/Western lifestyle.

A room somewhere like Dongzhimen (fancy area) will cost about EUR 230 per month.

I love Beijing.

I don't know where is the most happening city, but for quality of life check out Dalian & Qingdao.

Cool, thanks for that Loverman.

When you say a room, do you mean sharing an aparment with someone else or an actual apartment to yourself? How much would an apartment be?

Mr. Loverman · 30-09-2011 7:26am

I mean sharing an apartment.

I rent a two bedroom apartment for around EUR 530 per month.

17-10-2011 11:03am

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

You don't need a CELTA qualification to get a teaching job in China. IMO it's a waste of money, unless you reckon you would feel more confident in the classroom having an actual qualification. To give you a bit of perspective, a lot of the English teachers here aren't even native English speakers - they're just white!

You don't need a Celta however if you feel that you will be teaching for more than a year, then its definitely worth it. Firstly, there are a number of University positions which are in demand and will require a Celta. The days of just needing a degree are disappearing quite quickly. Secondly, teaching can be very daunting when you have no experience. The Celta includes classroom practice, and will provide valuable tools/games for all ages. I didn't do the Celta and have regretted it since.

Loverman has a very different view of teaching here in China than I do. There are many kinds of teachers here. Some will have zero experience and zero qualifications. They'll get the chain schools and be screwed by the management because they don't have many real options. The people with just a degree can technically get any job, but they'll still be limited to the average positions. The people who have a degree & Celta will get a better position simply because they have more choice.

Any other teaching course other than Celta or Delta is a waste. However I would state that if you like your teaching experience in China, a Celta helps to allow you to get ESL teaching both in Europe, and the ME. Without the Celta, you're stuck with the countries with lower extrance requirements regardless of experience.

kraggy wrote: »

Thanks guys,

Ok so what is the going rate for an experienced teacher in Shanghai? Is Shanghai a good place to live do you know or are there more happening places to live in in China? How would it compare to Hong Kong?

And how much could one save out that going rate whatever it is?

Don't come to China expecting to earn and save much unless you're a qualified teacher capable of teaching something other than English. To put it simply, ESL can provide a great lifestyle but it won't really cover everything especially savings. China has varied costs and cities like Shanghai are really expensive. Sure, you can compare to the Euro and home, but you will be living on what you earn here. Not what you would earn at home...

As for Shanghai and Hong Kong, you've picked the two most expensive cities to live in China. Let me put it this way. The meter for a taxi starts at 6rmb in Xi'an. in Shanghai it starts at 12rmb. Hong Kong depending on the area can be much higher. But the real costs come in when considering Housing. You might get school housing, and you might not. Even when you do, many people go outside rather than accept it, and that is a rather large cost..

IF you're looking to make money and have the qualifications/experience... then Korea and the ME are still the places to go.

17-10-2011 1:27pm

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

In Beijing you'll earn at least EUR 1200 per month. You can save half of that while living something of a hybrid Asian/Western lifestyle.

With experience and qualifications you can earn 12000rmb per month with the free apartment. The plus side is that there are plenty of private schools with reasonable working hours for those that shop around. However for those with no experience, non-related teaching qualifications or such, you might find 12000rmb but you will likely be teaching anything from 20-30 actual teaching hours a week, and another 10-15 hours of mandatory administrative duties (lesson plans, sales, demonstrations, etc). [so you can save by working all the time, and having one day off a week... which you will likely sleep during]

There are great jobs in beijing or Shanghai. Some get lucky, but most people need to have the necessary skills/experience for decent money. Please remember that most foreigners go to the 1st tier cities like Beijing, Shanghai etc, and therefore the market is flooded with foreigners looking for work. Throw in the people that left Japan to come to China for a while, and those cities can be a nightmare to get decent work.

I'd prefer not to paint China as being that easy to succeed in... it can be a very difficult country for some.

I love Beijing.

Me too. Its far better than Shanghai in terms of cost, and the type of people you meet. Also its huge so its hard to really get bored, or to think you've seen all there is to see.

Saying that though, I do like the smaller cities to actually live in.

I don't know where is the most happening city, but for quality of life check out Dalian & Qingdao.

Shenzhen, Xi'an, and Chengdu are also worth looking at. With so many foreigners, there are plenty of western markets/good if you need them. Also plenty of tourists to play with.

Funglegunk · 17-10-2011 3:04pm

Might be of use to some here who are looking to move to China, a useful little primer on China and Chinese culture:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvEVEIzmYBc

It's a Chinese production but on-target and evenly handled IMO.

ArphaRima · 18-10-2011 10:42am

That video is bang on.

It will take a good while to practically apply what it talks about, but the principles are all correct. Even more difficult will be to find out how many of their social norms are expected of you.

Mr. Loverman · 18-10-2011 11:13am

Deleted User wrote: »

With experience and qualifications you can earn 12000rmb per month with the free apartment.

In fairness everyone I know in Beijing (without experience or qualifications) are earning over 15k per month for a 20 - 25 hour week. They aren't getting a free apartment though.

If you consider the average person in Beijing earns a lot less than half that, it's quite easy to live on!

The problem is maintaining a western lifestyle -- expensive. But if you can live somewhat like a Chinese person it should be quite easy to save money. (I couldn't live without my western comforts though.)

18-10-2011 2:31pm

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

In fairness everyone I know in Beijing (without experience or qualifications) are earning over 15k per month for a 20 - 25 hour week. They aren't getting a free apartment though.

Whereas I know quite a few people in BJ on 15k or over that are working 20-25 hours teaching and another 14 hours administrative. The admin is a pain.

If you consider the average person in Beijing earns a lot less than half that, it's quite easy to live on!

Foreigners are not Chinese though. Chinese people will drink hot water rather than spend 3rmb on a bottle of iced tea. They'll buy cheaper foods, get the bus/metro rather than a taxi, they'll go to KTV or a club with 8 friends to cut down overall costs, etc. Foreigners will spend a lot more than Chinese people, especially when they first come to China. That amount decreases once you find some regular places to eat or learn some decent mandarin, but we'll always spend more than Chinese people.

Frankly, I know very few foreigners capable of living as frugally as a Chinese person.

The problem is maintaining a western lifestyle -- expensive. But if you can live somewhat like a Chinese person it should be quite easy to save money. (I couldn't live without my western comforts though.)

And thats the kicker. Very few foreigners can resist spending 300rmb in a club simply because they convert the money to euro and compare to home. Or whats 30-40rmb for a taxi that saves an hour on the bus? The problem is that we're not chinese. We're not raised in the same culture and frankly most foreigners are incapable of holding to a budget here. EVEN if you decide to stick to a lower budget, your other foreign friends won't be and that brings on a whole host of problems especially for your own self-respect. Things do get easier when you start dating a chinese person... saving becomes a lot simpler.

I don't bother with much western comforts. I dont go for western food, but I do like to have a coffee in Starbucks twice a week. The main expenditure is the nightlife... even a reasonably cheap night will cost you 100-200 and you're likely to have an initial lifestyle of going clubbing 2-3 times a week. Especially if you're a single guy.

tefl or tesol in china

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