US Police killing of 13 year old Adam Toledo

BloodBath wrote: »

You've changed your tune.

It's what critical thinking people do when presented with new evidence.

Gone from quoting nonsense from Trevor Noah, a bad comedian and a bad analyst, to trying to be more reasonable but still trying to blame the police. But what has James Cordon got to say about it!

Not familiar with Cordon much at all tbf, and Trevor's prose statement is still equally fitting, that the cop in this case did not straight out murder a child in cold blood, is not some twisted vindication to argue the system is not broken or in need of massive reform.

Maybe yourself and Trevor should get down off your ivory tower and try a stint in the force to see how easy it is. If you're waiting for someone to shoot first you won't last very long.

Settle down? We are having a discussion here, you've arrived pissing vinegar.

As for the survival rate if a tactical force uses the rules of engagement to fire only if fired upon, I should remind you that the casualty rate for military service, which uses those rules, is remarkably low. The US military has spent 20 years in Afghanistan fighting war/peacekeeping against a hostile force intent to kill them. 2,312 troops have perished in Afghanistan in that timeframe. Every year in the US, however, police are killed at a rate that exceeds that, when the vast majority of people would not be outset with premeditation to engage with or kill these officers, the same way opposing forces to do so against military targets. 264 officers perished last year. Clearly, the argument cannot be made that Police rules of engagement keep them any safer than military style ROE.

Comparing a 13 year old running around a 2am firing off a handgun to yourself sneaking out at night when you were a kid is a bad analogy.

No, it's not. Any bystander can be in the area of any crime for any reason. Simply calling it a bad analogy, as well, is not a counterargument. If an officer positively ID's that person firing a handgun, or fleeing with a handgun, that's of course one thing, but if you just start chasing someone down an alleyway on the mere chance they might be a suspect, that is another. If I had been wandering around my town when gunshots were heard near by, I don't think we want to live in a society that supposes in that situation that I should be prepared to accept being shot at first with questions asked later.

The kid played a stupid game and won a stupid prize and his parents let him down big time.

Perhaps. But that is far from an absolution of police responsibility for its use of force. The system is quite broken if there is individual responsibility for thee, but not me. Both. Ways.

Your cynical view of it is clear. The kid clearly had his right hand hidden from view and in his hoodie pocket. He turned and pulled it out and was instantly shot. It's easy to say in hindsight and freezing a frame where his hands are visible but the cop had literally 1 second to determine his action and yes in hindsight it was the wrong action. In another scenario where he hesitates the cop get's shot.

The widespread use of guns is the problem. Maybe you will acknowledge that someday.

This is another baselessly snarky comment given that, indeed, we and I have acknowledged the problem of guns in this thread? I suggest going back to read all of what is posted. Again, it is one factor that doesn't tell the entire problem, which has no one locus. Guns have of course been brought up as a problem; the reality is they aren't going away, so the conversation had moved on to other use of force measures that don't inject risk of mortality for either suspect or officer.

If an armed US cop was chasing me down with a gun you can be sure I'd follow his commands and make sure my hands were visible and not do any sudden movements or cagey actions that could be interpreted as trying to pull a gun on them.

Okay. I might, too. And, so did Adam Toledo, incidentally.

Here, Adam Toledo did follow the command to stop, and show the officer his hands. A moment after seeing Toledo's empty palms, he was shot by the officer.

Again, though, since there is no empirical way to classify what counts as for instance, sudden and cagey movements, why should it make sense for cops to have the Rules of Engagement that say your cagey movements can ethically, legally, and morally result in your immediate death? You, BloodBath, who are being chased down an alleyway by a cop, and feel threatened and wish to surrender, you comply with the officers command, and triggered by some jittery movement or displeased with the angular velocity you used to turn around and face him, the officer empties his firearm into your chest per his standing rules of engagement... ?

The Chicago Police Union head for his part is pouring gasoline on the story.

The President of the Chicago Police Union, John Catanzara went on Cuomo Prime Time to discuss the fatal shooting of 13-year-old Adam Toledo. He called the actions of the police officer “100% justified” and added, “that officer’s actions were actually heroic.”

Adam Toledo was shot early March 29th by a Chicago police officer who was responding to a report of gunfire. The police said the incident was an “armed confrontation” and a gun was found nearby. Since the bodycam footage was released Thursday, there has been a debate over whether or not it shows Toledo holding a gun when he was shot.

Catanzara defended the officer saying, “In reality, an average human being could not block someone from slapping him in the face in less time than that…It’s a good reason why the officer only shot one. He would have been justified to shoot multiple times.”

He gave his sympathies to the officers at the scene, “What do you think the officers who responded to that scene and were rendering aid and trying to save his life are now stuck with for the rest of their life? And they got to bring that home to their families, and then their families are affected by this.” [They get to go home to their families.. - Overheal]

He continued, claiming that Toledo was a Latin Kings gang member. [Leveling accusations at the dead charging guilt that will never see a day in court - Overheal] “The poor young kid misguided made a horrible decision that cost him his life, but it was justified.” Remarking on Toledo’s age, Catanzara said, “I will say, he’s 13 years old. We talk about the public school system in Chicago specifically. He should have been in school. [Night Classes at 2 AM?? - Overheal] But we’re not in school learning, now are we?”

Catanzara is no stranger to controversy. Earlier this year he was stripped of his pay and suspended from the force for filing a false police report on former police Supt. Eddie Johnson for his participation in an anti-violence march. Catanzara also received complaints about social media posts where he suggested killing people and called Muslim people “savages” and that “they all deserve a bullet.” He defended the posts saying he was referring to cop killers and people who mutilate women in the name of Islam.

Host Chris Cuomo responded to Catanzara’s comments, “I don’t want to judge the officer as a person. I don’t want to judge the victim. I just want to judge the situation and whether it was reasonable in its midst. I appreciate your commentary. For me, I want to stick to the facts.”

I'm not sure how the actions were Heroic, honestly. I don't ever want to find a video clip of this encounter in the dictionary, under Heroism. Chasing people down alleyways you think might be armed, should be in the dictionary under Stupidity, honestly. And I have no idea how he thinks he is helping by saying 'well, if anything the kid's parents should just be grateful that they only shot him once, since they had every right to shoot him some more' - like, what point are you making, how are you trying to help your community with that statement, Union President Catanzara? Don't even have to consider Catanzara's past controversies, what he's said in this instance itself is, well, raw gasoline and in poor taste.