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Family and Land

  • 04-04-2021 11:01pm
    #1
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭


    I'm not sure how to approach this with my parents so I'm hoping someone here could help.

    Short version: I was promised a plot of land by my parents but they are now giving it to my sister. My mother just mentioned it in a casual manner and I was shocked but before I could say too much the conversation was interrupted by someone joining us. That was 2 days ago.

    Long version: I'm due to take over a family business in the next 4-5 yrs. There's a plot of land beside the business and about a year ago my folks suggested my wife and I build on it to be close to the business. To be honest we had never thought to ask but really got into the idea and had really become excited about it.

    Fast forward to 2 days ago and I was told that the plot is now going to my sister. My sister had been offered it about a decade ago and wasn't interested but I think when she heard we were offered it decided she wanted it after all. Herself and her husband earn great money and offered my parents a lot of cash for it that we could never match.

    My parents don't need the cash at all (definitely don't) but it is their land so it's their call. But I am a bit shocked that the whole thing was decided without even discussing this with me.

    The other thing that hurts is that we had only planned to take a part of the field that would leave room for others (you could fit 3 fine houses on it) but my sister wants the whole thing.

    She was given another family business a number of years ago so it isn't a case of trying to balance things where she gets the field and I get the business. The one I'll be taking over doesn't generate much money but has been in the family for a few generations and I like the sector (hospitality).

    I recognise that I'm privileged but my own means wouldn't be enough to buy a plot elsewhere and realised our dream home and it wouldn't be next to the business where I could see more of the kids etc.

    I've accepted that our dream for the plot is now gone but I want to tell my parents how much we had planned for it and that by offering it, letting us dream of what could be and then taking it away it has really messed me and my wife about.

    How do I communicate this without burning bridges?


Comments

  • #2
    Big Bag of Chips
    Administrators Posts: 13,745 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Big Bag of Chips


    Can you not ask your parents to divide it so that you both get something. If it's big enough for 3 houses and gardens etc, then it'd be plenty big for 2. Your sister might have decided she wants to build there after all, but your parents should be able to split the plot. (is planning permission likely for 2 houses?)


  • #3
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    There is definitely space for two houses with gardens etc and I put that point to my mother in the few minutes we discussed this but was told that if they were giving it to my sister they only wanted one house there.

    I don't know if that has come from my parents or my sister who would be a "winner takes it all" type of person to put it mildly.

    Planning permission wouldn't be an issue for two or three houses there.


  • #4
    rock22
    Registered Users Posts: 1,547 ✭✭✭rock22


    You can only really advance this by speaking with your parents.
    You said the original conversation , offering you the plot, was casual. Perhaps, as you apparently had never talked about your plans for the plot, they assumed you have no interest in it.
    Best to discuss it with them, explain your plans , especially being beside your 'new' business, and ask the mwhy they changed their mind. Suggest a compromise of building two houses on the plot.


  • #5
    tea and coffee
    Registered Users Posts: 1,823 ✭✭✭tea and coffee


    If this goes ahead, I would be weighing up my options. Its all very well to take on a family business, but if it is being done for sentimental reasons mostly, with little benefit to you, I would have a think. Especially if you will have to commute in from elsewhere.
    I presume part of the sweetener in running the business would be that you would be able to live next door, and build a house for less than it would cost to buy one elsewhere- and that is fair enough!
    Having to run a business where it will be hard to make e do meet might make you feel resentful. Is it sentiment that is tying you to taki g the business on?

    I would talk to your parents and say that it might not be financially viable for you to do this, if you aren't able to live nearby. Surely they will be practical about this?


  • #6
    Princess Calla
    Registered Users Posts: 5,766 ✭✭✭Princess Calla


    You say your sister has offered alot of cash to your parents.......so she's buying it...she hasn't been given it.

    All anyone can advise is to sit down and talk to your parents about it.

    However I would be curious if they are prepared to buy land why they are picking this particular site....is there an element of spitefulness going on?


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  • #7
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Princess Calla wrote: »
    However I would be curious if they are prepared to buy land why they are picking this particular site....is there an element of spitefulness going on?

    She is quite entitled and is the type of person who never has enough. They offered a lot but it is still less than half what an inferior site is going for nearby. I believe they offered the money to put us out of the picture. It wouldn't make much difference to my parents overall finances. We could offer the same amount but my sister's pockets are so much deeper they would outbid us no matter what our price was. And I know my folks don't want a bidding war, that isn't their intention.

    I'll be putting a lot of space between me and my sister after this as I feel like she went behind my back to my parents. I had seen her do this to others in the past but had never been in the firing line myself.


  • #8
    Fakediamond
    Registered Users Posts: 1,054 ✭✭✭Fakediamond


    Would you like to live beside your sister? You need to be sure of that before bringing up the subject because you could be facing years of drama there. You’ve said she’s a winner takes all type so mightn’t make the best neighbour!


  • #9
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    tea and coffee wrote: »
    If this goes ahead, I would be weighing up my options. Its all very well to take on a family business, but if it is being done for sentimental reasons mostly, with little benefit to you, I would have a think. Especially if you will have to commute in from elsewhere.
    I presume part of the sweetener in running the business would be that you would be able to live next door, and build a house for less than it would cost to buy one elsewhere- and that is fair enough!
    Having to run a business where it will be hard to make e do meet might make you feel resentful. Is it sentiment that is tying you to taki g the business on?

    I would talk to your parents and say that it might not be financially viable for you to do this, if you aren't able to live nearby. Surely they will be practical about this?

    I would be able to keep going at my full time career away from the business but had planned to move to this part of the country to be close to it. The manager in charge is excellent and it almost runs itself but I would hope to get more involved over the years. So it is sentimental but does pay for itself too.

    But your core point is correct in that a lot of what was discussed with regard to the business was on trust and with this land thing I feel that trust has been broken somewhat.


  • #10
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Fakediamond wrote: »
    Would you like to live beside your sister? You need to be sure of that before bringing up the subject because you could be facing years of drama there. You’ve said she’s a winner takes all type so mightn’t make the best neighbour!

    Yeah we've been talking this over and it's not ideal! I could probably live with it because of the advantages of being close to the business. Plus it's where I grew up so I know plenty in the area.

    I do think the land is gone now but want to explain to my parents how gutted we are about this and how the decision was made without checking in with us. I know a poster said earlier maybe they didn't thing we were serious about it but I had said a few times that we were fully invested in the idea and looking forward to getting started on a design/build. I am easy going by nature and know now that my sister was badgering my parents about the site when I couldn't meet them due to covid (both she and my parents are now vaccinated).


  • #11
    JustAThought
    Registered Users Posts: 5,323 ✭✭✭JustAThought


    FamilyandLand wrote: »
    Yeah we've been talking this over and it's not ideal! I could probably live with it because of the advantages of being close to the business. Plus it's where I grew up so I know plenty in the area.

    I do think the land is gone now but want to explain to my parents how gutted we are about this and how the decision was made without checking in with us. I know a poster said earlier maybe they didn't thing we were serious about it but I had said a few times that we were fully invested in the idea and looking forward to getting started on a design/build. I am easy going by nature and know now that my sister was badgering my parents about the site when I couldn't meet them due to covid (both she and my parents are now vaccinated).

    Feelings don’t pay bills.
    Have you considered at all that your parents might want, or need the money or be worried about their financial future or have dreams of their own that this money your sisters offered might buy? Its not all about you.


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  • #12
    TherapyBoy
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 4,277 Mod ✭✭✭✭TherapyBoy


    FamilyandLand wrote: »
    I do think the land is gone now but want to explain to my parents how gutted we are about this and how the decision was made without checking in with us.

    I can’t see any possible positive benefit to anyone involved in doing this. Best to just move past it.

    Moderator: Non Drinkers Group & Grand Theft Auto



  • #13
    JustAThought
    Registered Users Posts: 5,323 ✭✭✭JustAThought


    TherapyBoy wrote: »
    I can’t see any possible positive benefit to anyone involved in doing this. Best to just move past it.

    yes - you could have that argument/ discussion better with your sister - or get a loan and approach your parents with a financial counter offer for half the land that leave them with an income from her and from you. You can be sure they just didn’t make the decision without taking that into account. And no - don’t go telling your parents how upset you are that they didn’t give you the land for free but sold it instead. It IS their land - not yours, and I understand you and your sister have already being gifted businesses. At what point do your parents have to keep handing you their assets? They have financial needs and future contingency planning too even if you think they don’t need it.


  • #14
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    I appreciate all the comments, it's good to get a sense of perspective from people outside our bubble. To the comments about my parents financial needs and financial future - like I said earlier they don't need this money, it's a drop in the ocean for them so that isn't a factor. They're now at the stage of giving all their children a leg up with the excess. But I spoke to them earlier and the money will be given to another brother to help with his first house which he'll be delighted about.

    It seems like there was a lot of talking from my sister to them to convince them it wouldn't suit my family but they never checked in with me! It's done now and I said my bit and had a respectful conversation with my folks. I'm happy to move on now but I'll be wary enough of my sister in the future.


  • #15
    wildwillow
    Registered Users Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭wildwillow


    Leaving the plot aside, are you sure you will be taking over the business in a few years. Is this written in stone or can your parents change their minds about this as well.

    I'd make sure the transfer was secure before making any changes or having expectations.


  • #16
    BingCrosbee
    Registered Users Posts: 260 ✭✭BingCrosbee


    Family land and businesses always end in conflict. It’s your families turn now. The more ye have the more ye want. Typical Ireland. My father had the same situation and I had to admire him as he walked away from it all and started from scratch with no bitterness and reared a big family on limited resources.


  • #17
    JupiterKid
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,555 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    It seems to me that in most situations with land and farms in Ireland, from relatives of mine from the country and friends who were/are in those situations, there is always - without fail - some level of acrimony, falling out of siblings and misunderstandings. Also happens to a lesser extent over executors’ sales of family houses in urban areas.

    Inheritance issues bring out the very worst in people, from my own experience.

    Hope it works out for you OP, but as the others here opined, when it comes to inheritance or bequeathments you can never take anything “agreed” verbally with anyone - parents, siblings, other relatives etc, unless it is in writing and legally permissible in court.


  • #18
    HildaOgdenx
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,383 Mod ✭✭✭✭HildaOgdenx


    +1 to what Jupiter said, especially about the acrimony that can be caused over land and property in general.

    I guess the important thing now, having had the respectful conversation with them, as you mentioned, is not to let it affect your relationship with your parents. And whatever decision you make in relation to the business, again, make it with a clear mind as to what is best, for you and your own family.

    You say you will be more wary of your sister, in future, and I think you would be absolutely right.


  • #19
    LimeFruitGum
    Registered Users Posts: 991 ✭✭✭LimeFruitGum


    They might have reasoned it as "OP is getting the business, sure Sister can have the land, and we'll give some money to the brother". Not excusing the sister here, but if the value of the business is the same (or more? Plus whatever value you would add to it) as the land, maybe you've come out tops?
    But I agree with a previous poster about getting the business locked down in writing. You know now you can't 100% trust your parents either on a verbal agreement.


  • #20
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Thanks again for the comments. I'm going to take a step back and reassess the whole family business thing. I was away for most of my twenties and some of my thirties and got on well in life doing my own thing.

    Jupiter, I think you're spot on. I find the family politics incredibly draining emotionally and miss the simpler life. That said I give a lot of support to my parents on certain things and our relationship will be strong despite this set back.

    I'll probably leave the thread at that. Anyone know a shebeen open to let off some steam?


  • #21
    An Ri rua
    Registered Users Posts: 4,475 ✭✭✭An Ri rua


    FamilyandLand wrote: »
    She is quite entitled and is the type of person who never has enough. They offered a lot but it is still less than half what an inferior site is going for nearby. I believe they offered the money to put us out of the picture. It wouldn't make much difference to my parents overall finances. We could offer the same amount but my sister's pockets are so much deeper they would outbid us no matter what our price was. And I know my folks don't want a bidding war, that isn't their intention.

    I'll be putting a lot of space between me and my sister after this as I feel like she went behind my back to my parents. I had seen her do this to others in the past but had never been in the firing line myself.

    If they offered less than half the price the site is worth, based on local prices, your parents could yet have tax audit trouble. And having multiple businesses, they will have been audited before. Even if they gift it, the gift has the market value, not just a notional figure pulled from the air.

    What you are describing is succession planning in families. I take the view of another poster re ensuring, before you compromise your professional and family life, that your parents promises are as locked down and legal as can be.
    Sound logic says that whoever lives there runs that business. That's just my perspective.


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  • #22
    embraer170
    Registered Users Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭embraer170


    The only way forward is to have a conversation with your parents. Explain your plans and what you had in mind, and see what their side of the story is. If you keep most emotions out of it (as you managed to do in the topic starter), there is no reason bridges should be burned. That conversation is probably worth a lot more than anyone could contribute here.


  • #23
    Xterminator
    Registered Users Posts: 4,716 ✭✭✭Xterminator


    And you are wary of you sister for agreeing to purchase land from your parents and then informing you when it was agreed?

    Not sure what your sister has done wrong here!

    If your parents promised it to you and broke that agreement - how does that reflect badly on your sister? It doesnt.


  • #24
    Upforthematch
    Registered Users Posts: 1,328 ✭✭✭Upforthematch


    FamilyandLand wrote: »
    It seems like there was a lot of talking from my sister to them to convince them it wouldn't suit my family but they never checked in with me! It's done now and I said my bit and had a respectful conversation with my folks. I'm happy to move on now but I'll be wary enough of my sister in the future.

    You don't sound like you're happy to move on now from the tone of your posts.

    Not to sound harsh, but I don't think you have a leg to stand on here. She purchased the site, whether it was at arms length or not, whether your folks needed the money or not, whether your sister was "really convincing" or not is not the point.

    You now have your sister's land next to the family business it appears you'll inherit. It's your call but if you or your family hold a grudge against your sister or your parents, it will only do you harm from here on out.

    Treat this as an expensive lesson to learn and remember a missed opportunity is only that.

    However, if you are given an offer in future... do something about it and make it legal, don't sit on it or stew on the resentment if someone else does something about it.


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