Wasted Heritage Buildings - Your nominations

Judgement Day · 16-09-2010 6:46pm

I blundered into the Dublin City Forum this evening and found this. I'm away from Dublin so long now that this sort of nonsense goes undetected by me but it looks like another Frascati in the making. :mad:

Thread on Archiseek here:http://www.archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=7878

Facebook page here: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=183090&id=98882993873&l=e4efd6e4ab

With dinner out of the way I can now come back to this issue. Am I alone (apart for some of you here) that find it incredible that in 2010 buildings as obviously as important as Aldborough House are still allowed to go to wrack and ruin? Apparently nothing has been learnt from the demolitions of the 1970s. An Taisce should be shouting about things like this from the rooftops but instead their magazine is banal to the point of being virtually unreadable. What is the answer?

owenc · 16-09-2010 8:52pm

CDfm wrote: »

our preservation policy is a bit of a disaster and as a country we do not have the resourses of the UK and the National Trust personally I am with your Mum and I would leave people reclaim and refurbish before they fall down.

On buildings like Youghal Clock Tower even if they were adapted and rented out to stop the deterioration well so what. I am sure there would be no shortage of takers.

Aye theres a wee ancient house down by me about 15 miles away called drenagh, they kept that good. Thats about the only proper house that people actually live in. All the old historic buildings are still here though like the musenden temple etc. The people who own drenagh actually passed it down from 500 years and are related to this famous king in scotland, the house was actually built before the plantation thats very interesting its even on wikipedia!

AI · 17-09-2010 8:31am

My book hits the shelves early October

http://www.collinspress.ie/products.asp?id=10

The book follows on from my abandoned ireland website but is a lot more polished, it documents a further fifty lost estates. A second volume will also follow if I can get somebody to publish it.

There's also a big exhibition of my documentary work on the lost estate houses in the Cork Vision Centre running for the month of November

Faust1 · 19-11-2010 2:20am

Boru House, Mulgrave St, Limerick

Former home of Limerick writer, Kate O'Brien

Not sure how to post a picture, so here is a link: http://www.flickr.com/photos/45755268@N00/2384156092/

V480 · 20-11-2010 4:09am

Fairly sickening looking at this thread.

While it is sad at the amount of neglected buildings/monuments we have in the country we should also bare in mind the fact that there are plently of fully re-developed historical sites all over the country that people hardly know exist.

Johnstown Castle in Co. Wexford has already been mentioned but one other I would add to that list is Barryscourt Castle in County Cork. The Lonely Planet guide advised tourists to see this towerhouse over Blarney Castle and I could not agree more.

The castle itself is situated ideally, in Carrigtwohill, just off the N25 Cork - Youghal Road. Unfortunately the signposting is crap. If you do manage to find it you will be pleasantly suprised. There are some beautiful gardens and an apple orchard with over 50 different types of Irish apple! There is also a lovely old fashioned little tea/coffee shop with some of the best home-made cakes you will ever taste in your life. As for the castle itself...

It is quite big - a guided tour (only access) will take about 40 mins - 1 hour, but it is worth it. The castle was purchased in the late 80's and redeveloped over a period of about 20 years! It is magnificent. The incredible thing is that it is free - yes FREE! Incredible considering what you would pay to see Blarney, Ross Castle, ect.

Talking to some of the staff there the impression I got is that the OPW have neglected the place since spending 6 million on restoring it. Minister Martin Mansergh visited recently and got lost trying to find it. He promised new signage straight away. That was 6 months ago. New signage / better advertising has been requested for about 5 or 6 years without any success. Incredible. For the govt to spend that much restoring a building and not even bothering to advertise it.

Incidentally, before visiting I rang OPW to enquire about their heritage card. I mentioned Barryscourt Castle and the reply from the woman on the phone was 'oh, is that privately run?' She did not even know it was an OPW site. Unbelievable.

Great thread by the way.

CDfm · 20-11-2010 7:38am

+1

Medieval Cork is great if you know what you are looking for.

From Carrigtwohill its just a few miles to Cloyne to the fantastic C of I Cathedral and Youghal's St Mary's Collegiate Church. Must see's really.

It is such a pity more isn't done to publicise it.

losthorizon · 20-11-2010 4:35pm

V480 wrote: »

I would add to that list is Barryscourt Castle in County Cork. The Lonely Planet guide advised tourists to see this towerhouse over Blarney Castle and I could not agree more.

The castle itself is situated ideally, in Carrigtwohill, just off the N25 Cork - Youghal Road. Unfortunately the signposting is crap. If you do manage to find it you will be pleasantly suprised. There are some beautiful gardens and an apple orchard with over 50 different types of Irish apple! There is also a lovely old fashioned little tea/coffee shop with some of the best home-made cakes you will ever taste in your life. As for the castle itself...

It is quite big - a guided tour (only access) will take about 40 mins - 1 hour, but it is worth it. The castle was purchased in the late 80's and redeveloped over a period of about 20 years! It is magnificent. The incredible thing is that it is free - yes FREE! Incredible considering what you would pay to see Blarney, Ross Castle, ect.

I was on the dig there years ago. I Found a few musket balls if I remember correctly.

V480 · 21-11-2010 6:56am

losthorizon wrote: »

I was on the dig there years ago. I Found a few musket balls if I remember correctly.

Interesting...I was told that there was nothing found there! What happened to them after do you know?

eh2010 · 15-12-2010 8:11pm

Great thread. Does asny one know of any books that catalogue all / most of the Big country houses of Ireland?

Judgement Day · 15-12-2010 8:45pm

Burke's Guide to Country Houses Volume .1. (Ireland) by Mark Bence Jones is the the most all embracing work on the subject. Packed with information and photographs. The new book Abandoned Mansions of Ireland by Tarquin Blake would also be a must have for anybody interested in surviving but derelict large houses.

Several copies of the Bence-Jones book are available on Abebooks.com here: http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=mark+bence-jones&kn=ireland&x=0&y=0

Simarillion · 15-12-2010 8:56pm

Still the most thorough book on Ireland's country houses is
Burke's Guide to Country Houses: Ireland written by Mark Bence-Jones in 1978

It's not the easiest to find, and there was a second release with an addendum of more houses that Bence-Jones has omitted during the first write up. Several owners had written to him complaining of being forgotten. But the key to it is that many of the houses he visited were still standing, and being lived in by their original owners, and there are many photographs he was given of houses before they were burned during the '20s or demolished during the 60's, 70's and 80's

After that you are looking at the handful that have been done predominantly by members of the Irish Georgian Society, who thankfully recorded many of the bigger houses that exist.
A few examples are;

Irish House and Castles; Hon. Desmond Guinnes & William Ryan
Great Houses of Ireland; Hugh Montgomery-Massingberd & Christophen Sykes
Great Irish Houses; Jacqueline O'Brian & Hon. Desmond Guinness
Irish Gardens; Madame Olda Fitzgerald
The Big House in Ireland; Valerie Pakenham
The Houses of Ireland; Brian de Breffny and Rosemary ffolliott
The Noble Dwellings of Ireland; John Fitzmaurice Mills
In An Irish House; Sybil Connolly
The Irish Georgian Society's 50th Anniversary Book of Irish Houses
Turtle Bunbury's Irish Country Houses (covers smaller houses)

Most of the above cover the same houses, namely the largest and more grand houses or the most famous ones, rather than smaller country houses or quieter families, so you'll regularly come across:
Castletown, Birr, Slane, Clandeboye, Mount Stewart, Tullynally, Curraghmore, Bantry, Florence Court, Leixlip, Westport, Lismore, Russborough & Powerscourt

Slightly different ones are;
The Lost Houses of Ireland; Count Randal McDonnell
Tarquin Blake's Abandoned Ireland (based on his website- really excellent!!)
both of which record houses which were burned/demolished etc.

Hope I haven't overloaded you with too much!

Sim

Judgement Day · 15-12-2010 11:43pm

In addition to all those listed by Simarillion, Vanishing Country Houses of Ireland is a superb book which was published back in 1988. High quality b/w pictures of all the best derelict houses in Ireland - a surprising number of which have been, or are being, restored since the book was published. Markree Castle nr.Collooney, Wilton Castle nr.Enniscorthy and Killua Castle in County Westmeath are a few that come to mind.

I cannot recommend this book highly enough and you can still find copies on Abebooks.com - Stokes Books in the Market Arcade (off Sth.Great Georges Street) is also a reliable source for this type of book.

owenc · 22-12-2010 12:08pm

There ain't many wasted heritage buildings here but i'd put in two that are the most dated and they would be drumachose old church and museden temple which is only 300 years old and its falling a part already!

Judgement Day · 22-12-2010 1:01pm

owenc wrote: »

There ain't many wasted heritage buildings here but i'd put in two that are the most dated and they would be drumachose old church and museden temple which is only 300 years old and its falling a part already!

I wouldn't have thought that Mussenden Temple could be classified as a 'wasted' heritage building given that it is looked after by the UK National Trust? It may be clinging on to the edge of a cliff but at least it has been preserved.

owenc · 22-12-2010 1:23pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

I wouldn't have thought that Mussenden Temple could be classified as a 'wasted' heritage building given that it is looked after by the UK National Trust? It may be clinging on to the edge of a cliff but at least it has been preserved.

When i say wasted i mean the bricks etc are falling apart. This building is also falling apart, fasinating how big the windows are though were they really that big!:eek: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Downhill_House.jpg

Judgement Day · 22-12-2010 1:30pm

We're talking cross purposes here - the Mussenden Temple has been in the care of the National Trust since the 1940s see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downhill_House while Downhill House was semi-dismantled in the 1950s.

owenc · 22-12-2010 1:48pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

We're talking cross purposes here - the Mussenden Temple has been in the care of the National Trust since the 1940s see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downhill_House while Downhill House was semi-dismantled in the 1950s.

and why was it dismantled.

Judgement Day · 22-12-2010 1:57pm

owenc wrote: »

and why was it dismantled.

Probably to avoid paying rates and/or to make money from sale of salvaged material - but I don't know for sure.

CDfm · 22-12-2010 2:20pm

I once heard an interview with the pop singer Donavan who was once a tax exile in Ireland.

He had bought a country house from the Sacred Heart Missionaries who had sold the lead off the roof ,only to have to buy the same lead back.

Lead is very expensive and often the value of the salvage from old properties falling into disrepair was worth more than the properties themselves. Roofs,gutters and windows etc were often removed to make the properties safe to be around and they were not totally demolished.

I once stayed for a while in a country house and I cant remember what I disliked most - the cold or the occasional rat infestation - one of the other guys living there woke up one night to discover a rat on his chest who bit his chin.

Michael Flately could restore and maintain such a house but it is hugely expensive to do so.

Judgement Day · 22-12-2010 2:59pm

Macmine Castle nr.Enniscorthy was 'dismantled' primarily for the lead off its extensive roofs. In another life I took the 19th century lead off the roof of a house that I was restoring and was paid a small fortune for it - great until I went to buy new and inferior quality replacement lead.

owenc · 22-12-2010 8:22pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

Probably to avoid paying rates and/or to make money from sale of salvaged material - but I don't know for sure.

What a disgrace ruining our national heritage for money that british government sell everything for money!

CDfm · 23-12-2010 2:04am

owenc wrote: »

What a disgrace ruining our national heritage for money that british government sell everything for money!

You cant preserve everything and these things cost money.

I love the buildings but I am not so sure I love them enough to want to live in one.

owenc · 23-12-2010 8:54am

CDfm wrote: »

You cant preserve everything and these things cost money.

I love the buildings but I am not so sure I love them enough to want to live in one.

Yes but it is part of our national heritage...... no wouldn't want to live in them not for me.

CDfm · 23-12-2010 10:24am

owenc wrote: »

Yes but it is part of our national heritage...... no wouldn't want to live in them not for me.

Ah but. That is one thing the British do well and they have people queueing up to live in National Trust Buildings in their lifetimes and putting their own money in to preserve something they will never own . It wouldnt be for me.

My Dad & a cousin redid an ancestoral cottage years back. A Blacksmiths forge and threshing machine too.

Pre-Celtic tiger and lots of gorgeous buildings in the area were falling really because the build quality and materials used them often were not great.

We were all sworn to secrecy about the heritage stuff in case some hairy arsed preservation type do gooder would nose around as the cost would have been astronomical. They did a great job and even returned a few old gravestones that had been used as flagstones to where they should have been.

I always like this restoration http://tyntescastle.com/ ; but if it was me I would want to live in it with all the mod cons.

owenc · 23-12-2010 10:35am

CDfm wrote: »

Ah but. That is one thing the British do well and they have people queueing up to live in National Trust Buildings in their lifetimes and putting their own money in to preserve something they will never own . It wouldnt be for me.

My Dad & a cousin redid an ancestoral cottage years back. A Blacksmiths forge and threshing machine too.

Pre-Celtic tiger and lots of gorgeous buildings in the area were falling really because the build quality and materials used them often were not great.

We were all sworn to secrecy about the heritage stuff in case some hairy arsed preservation type do gooder would nose around as the cost would have been astronomical. They did a great job and even returned a few old gravestones that had been used as flagstones to where they should have been.

I always like this restoration http://tyntescastle.com/ ; but if it was me I would want to live in it with all the mod cons.

HMMM that would be quite hard to do, would be very good to get my ancestors house turned back into what it looked like but no idea lol because it was knocked down last year its 250 years old!:mad:

Riamfada · 23-12-2010 1:41pm

Charleville Castle in Tullamore. The town desperately needs a large focal point and amenity for the area. Currently its privately owned. It always disappointed me that it was not taken into the care of the OPW and given the reworking it deserved to generate tourist revenue to Tullamore.

CDfm · 23-12-2010 2:01pm

Do you mind me asking what historical significance the castle has and what if the current owners do not want to sell.

It is private property and that is protected by the constitution.

Of course, if it would generate such revenue why haven't local business people bought it.

Do you have an equivalent castle in mind where this has worked.

Not wanting to rain on your parade but in Ennis last year I visited the Cloisters and paid a 3 or 5 euro entrance fee to see a wall. Visited Malahide castle recently and it was a disappointment.

Why would one go to Tullamore as a tourist anyway ?

owenc · 23-12-2010 4:29pm

Grimes wrote: »

Charleville Castle in Tullamore. The town desperately needs a large focal point and amenity for the area. Currently its privately owned. It always disappointed me that it was not taken into the care of the OPW and given the reworking it deserved to generate tourist revenue to Tullamore.

and why would that disappoint you thats part of that families heritage, if it were me i'd be keeping that to pass it on etc as its part of the family and i wouldn't be giving it away to some national company who would let it wreck and ruin like some of the buildings here.

CDfm · 23-12-2010 6:13pm

owenc wrote: »

and why would that disappoint you thats part of that families heritage, if it were me i'd be keeping that to pass it on etc as its part of the family and i wouldn't be giving it away to some national company who would let it wreck and ruin like some of the buildings here.

There are some great people out there that have kept the family homes going and they should be entitled to them as anyone with any inheritance.

There are lots of properties in public ownership -but it would not be a bad idea if some "pretentious gits" wanted to refurbish them and live in them like Lord and Lady of the Manor in their lifetimes.

I would even give them titles if it saved heritage and if it gave them pleasure I would be more than supportive.

We are a small country and we do not have huge resourses -so we should be realistic about what we can afford and achieve.

CDfm · 24-12-2010 4:46am

owenc wrote: »

and why would that disappoint you thats part of that families heritage, if it were me i'd be keeping that to pass it on etc as its part of the family and i wouldn't be giving it away to some national company who would let it wreck and ruin like some of the buildings here.

Here is a link to Charleville Castle and after being left decay from 1912 to 1970 -it seems to have been taken over by a bunch of tree hugging hippies

http://charlevillecastle.ie/_mgxroot/page_recent_history.html

Wasted Heritage Buildings - Your nominations

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