Information on soldiers in WW1

johnny_doyle · 17-04-2010 4:41pm

Irish Times Nov 16th 1907
John Henry Henzell Giltrap admitted as a solicitor having served apprenticeship with Messrs Montgomery and Chaytor of 13 Molesworth St. He intends to carry on the practice of his late uncle Charles Rextor M'Namara at 10 South Frederick St.

1882 John Harry Henzell Giltrap - prizes awarded at the Merchant Tailor's Endowed School.

Ponster · 17-04-2010 4:44pm

You win this round Johnny

Nice work !

Curiousgal · 17-04-2010 7:44pm

Echoing Ponster, not only do you win this round, you win my complete admiration!

Thank you sooo much for all of that fascinating information!! Not only have you solved a family mystery, you have brought a man to life whose story could so easily have been lost to posterity. I really appreciate your time, effort and generosity (I'm sure this information depends on having various subscriptions). It is great to know there are people who still take an interest in these men's lives, particularly the young ones who died so tragically in action, keeping their memory alive.

Thanks to you both for your interest in my 'case'!

It strikes me that 'Uncle Jim' was deeply motivated to do his duty in WWI and serve whichever way he could - despite the repeated rejection from the army in his later life! - No doubt due to a combination of age, lack of physical fitness and/or illness perhaps, and lack of stature(?!).

The information on his part in the 1916 Rising is wonderful to get. I've often been curious about my Protestant ancestors' experience of this event and am fascinated to see his humane and brave approach to helping the injured, which I'm hoping included people from both sides of the divide.

Thanks also for the Census links. I had the information on John Henry Henzell, as he is indeed James's older brother and my great grandfather. Brilliant that you found James in the Census, as I had only found his mother and 4 other unmarried siblings living together in Drumcondra but no trace of James. As you also discovered, my great grandfather went on to take over the solicitors' practice in Sth. Frederick St., passing it on to my grandfather. The location has since become Renard's nightclub (that was)!

That's fascinating about J.H.H. attending the Merchant Tailors' Endowed School, since it's only a matter of days since I discovered that his grandfather, Henry Giltrap, was indeed a tailor from Dunlavin, Co. Wicklow. That in turn brings it possibly full circle, as Wicklow appears to have been overrun(!) with Giltraps in the 17th and 18th centuries, which may well tie in with your wife's acquaintance, Sharon Giltrap, living not too far away in Rathfarnham.

So, Johnny, and Ponster, a wholehearted thank you once again - if there were any way I could return the favour, I would try...

Happily, 'Uncle Jim' sent his mother a photo of himself in 1916 with a group of other Red Cross men (seated in front of an odd statue of two men seemingly sharing a joke, with one's arms up to the sky, in France, I presume) letting her know all was fine - and proof that he managed to do his duty for at least a few months before being sent home...!

Thank you.

johnny_doyle · 18-04-2010 9:25am

happy to help.

Presumably your grandfather was Rupert Henry Giltrap? There's a 12th August 1922 marriage announcement for him in the Irish Times to Sydney Alexandra Carey, daughter of the late William Henry Cary of Westernra, Kildare and Mrs Carey of 365 North Circular Road. Marriage date 19th July 1922.

Any chance you could scan in the photo of James so we can see what he looks like (and maybe identify the location - longshot)?

Curiousgal · 18-04-2010 4:25pm

Yes, those are my grandparents - and useful to have my gran's mother's address at the time of her wedding, thanks!

My Australian cousin has the photo of James with the statue - he showed it to me on a recent visit to Dublin - which sparked the interest in finding out more. He is sending me a copy of it from Australia but I've asked him to try and send a scan of it by email. Not sure when I might get that but will definitely get back to this site when it arrives.

Thanks again for offering to help identify the place - judging by your detective work so far I have every confidence you'll know where it is!

Curiousgal · 21-04-2010 1:03am

Any chance you could scan in the photo of James so we can see what he looks like (and maybe identify the location - longshot)?

Well, I don't have the photo of James with the statue but I have found him in another photo online(!), which tells me exactly what he was doing during 1916/1917! The British Red Cross Society has a series of 15 photos from WWI on their website - and would you believe I spotted him in a group shot of volunteers who were crewing on the Red Cross ambulance train. If you'd like to see the face behind the name, he's in the tenth photo - group of approx. 40 men in front of the train. He is the older man kneeling in the 2nd row, 4th in from the right in front of the standing cook's white tunic, with the white hair and moustache, arms folded.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/britishredcross/sets/72157623534102272/show/

What a coincidence that the one train photo they put up was taken during his relatively short time there. The statue must be located at one of the stations along the ambulance train route - doesn't really matter now, as the mystery is solved!

Thanks again for all your help.

johnny_doyle · 21-04-2010 8:17pm

some very nice photos there. Thanks for this.

Good to put a face to a name!

I have to confess total ignorance of Ambulance Trains. Never come across a reference to them before - so must spend some time googling about them ;-)

Curiousgal · 21-04-2010 10:09pm

Enjoy!

Dazzler88 · 26-04-2010 8:40am

Hey guys..im back looking for more help.If anyone has access to Ancestry,would you be able to check for the following:

Bernard Kerrigan
Tawnmachugh,
Manorhamilton,
Co.Leitrim

Thats all the information I have on him.

Curiousgal · 30-04-2010 8:05am

Hi - I'm back again too!

It seems James A. Giltrap's military career includes a 5th discharge...

After finding out so much about the end of his military career and life with your invaluable help, I've now come across two letters he sent to his family in 1892 from Karachi (as a young man of 23), where he was serving in the 2nd Batallion of the Royal Dublin Fusiliers. He's listed as Private Giltrap, No. 4078 F. Co. on one letter, and G. Co. on the other. He was clearly getting himself into all sorts of trouble and ending up either confined to barracks or ill in hospital. I would love to access his record as I'd love to know if he ultimately served in the Boer War, as I found a book on same published in 1901 in the attic with his letters, which I'm guessing belonged to him.

I've searched for a current website run by the Royal Dublin Fusiliers, to see if they have records dating back to the 1890s, but I haven't found any obvious starting point for this. If it isn't too much to ask for your assistance on this again, would you know where best I could find out?

Thanks so much...

arnhem44 · 30-04-2010 9:30pm

There is every possible chance that this record is also on Ancestry,if it is and he served for any lenght of time it will list where he was and how long he was at each place.

johnny_doyle · 01-05-2010 7:41am

Curiousgal wrote: »

Hi - I'm back again too!

It seems James A. Giltrap's military career includes a 5th discharge...

After finding out so much about the end of his military career and life with your invaluable help, I've now come across two letters he sent to his family in 1892 from Karachi (as a young man of 23), where he was serving in the 2nd Batallion of the Royal Dublin Fusiliers. He's listed as Private Giltrap, No. 4078 F. Co. on one letter, and G. Co. on the other. He was clearly getting himself into all sorts of trouble and ending up either confined to barracks or ill in hospital. I would love to access his record as I'd love to know if he ultimately served in the Boer War, as I found a book on same published in 1901 in the attic with his letters, which I'm guessing belonged to him.

I've searched for a current website run by the Royal Dublin Fusiliers, to see if they have records dating back to the 1890s, but I haven't found any obvious starting point for this. If it isn't too much to ask for your assistance on this again, would you know where best I could find out?

Thanks so much...

this chap just gets more and more interesting.

johnny_doyle · 01-05-2010 7:42am

Dazzler88 wrote: »

Hey guys..im back looking for more help.If anyone has access to Ancestry,would you be able to check for the following:

Bernard Kerrigan
Tawnmachugh,
Manorhamilton,
Co.Leitrim

Thats all the information I have on him.

not seeing anything that ties all the above to one man.

There is a family tree with a Bernard Kerrigan born 1882 in Leitrim; father Hugh.

Curiousgal · 01-05-2010 12:16pm

Yeah... he seems to have been a troubled soul alright in his youth, admitting himself he didn't know what made him do the things he did that got him into trouble - one punishment being more than 20 days confined to barracks in searing heat, armed with bucket and dung fork! However, he seems to have got himself together in his more mature years :-)

Thanks Arnhem44 for the tip re Ancestry. I subscribed but can only find military records relating to WWI. The Royal Dublin Fusiliers web sites I have found also relate only to records of soldiers from WWI. I see that they are giving a talk in Collins Barracks on 22nd May as part of the Bealtaine Festival, to help people trace soldiers from their regiment in WWI. I might pop along and see if they know about records from the turn of the century, though at this stage I'm almost worried about what I'll find out next!

arnhem44 · 04-05-2010 12:03pm

Shame he did not live long enough to draw his Army pension,this would of linked his WW1 record to his previous record,is there any entry on his WW1 record showing a different number or an abbreviated name for a different regiment?,the entries on these records can sometimes be all over the place and often hard to read.

Curiousgal · 08-05-2010 10:19pm

Thanks, Arnhem44 - James Giltrap was in so many regiments... - but I made a mistake with one of them. I misread A.S.C. for A.P.C., so his last regiment was actually the Army Service Corps and it states on his death cert that he was a pensioner of the A.S.C. No. 877041, so maybe he was receiving a pension. Through unexpectedly finding other family connections on Ancestry, I now believe that a man who featured in both war photos with James was in fact his brother-in-law who also served in the Army Service Corps called Frederick William Jackson (in the photo link, directly left of the Red Cross sign on the train). According to his medal cards, he was awarded a Silver War Badge, which may have been what prompted James to apply for one, although he was sadly not successful.

If Johnny Doyle is still following this thread, I wonder would you mind doing me one last favour?! Would you mind looking up your 1916 Rebellion Handbook to see if a Freddy (Frederick William) Jackson or William (George A.) Jackson were mentioned at all, as James was?

I'd be so grateful.... - thanks!!

johnny_doyle · 09-05-2010 2:07pm

had a look at the 1916 Rebellion book but couldn't find anything. There is a reference to a Mrs Jackson at 11 Bushy Park Road whose house became a temporary hospital but looking at the 1911 census she appears to be from Australia and has no children listed.

Not every name is indexed so I'll have another look through to see if I stumble upon anything re the Jacksons.

Curiousgal · 09-05-2010 2:29pm

Thanks, Johnny - I really appreciate your help!

I think Freddy Jackson may have been in France during 1916 but it was worth a try.

Thank you!

Curiousgal · 02-10-2010 8:54pm

Hi - I'm back with another request!

I have a medal card for Private Jack Sullivan (born 1898 from Dublin) but it doesn't give dates or place of action. I know he was badly injured which would explain his changing from the Royal irish Fusiliers to the Royal Defence Corps but would be interested in what happened and where he was located with both regiments. Can anyone help?!

Royal Irish Fusiliers - Regiment No. 3795

Royal Defence Corps 73206

He received a Victory Medal and British Medal. Remarks on his medal card state: "Ret'd (1743.KR) 7956 Adt

Sev (?) B List

Thanks so much...

R.Dub.Fusilier · 04-10-2010 3:19pm

had a look at ancestry and only 1 Jack Sullivan with that number and regiment comes up.

details- says he was born in 1889 ,married to Sarah Jane Sullivan of Oakfield St Belfast . went to France 15-7-15 until 30-5-16 , he would have been entitled to the 1914/1915 star trio if this is the case,and seems to have been discharged in 1918, released for ship building. offical letter dated 1934 asking about his later death. another states he died 29-10-19.
he had 3 tattoos a snake , South Africa and Cheshire regiment badge, which would suggest he served with that regiment in the Boer War.
there is about 30 pages of info but am finding them hard to read some of them.
also gives 10 Croft Terrace Colne, Lancashire as an address.

is he a relative of yours?

Curiousgal · 04-10-2010 8:52pm

Thanks for that info R.Dub.Fusilier,

that guy sounds fascinating! Unfortunately, I don't think he is the Jack Sullivan I'm looking for. I must have the wrong medal card if the Regiment numbers match up with the man you found on Ancestry.

Jack Sullivan is a relative of a friend of mine. He was only 16 years old when war broke out in 1914, so I'm assuming he wouldn't have served before 1916. He was irish, from Dublin, so I thought that the Royal Irish Fusiliers would be a likely regiment for an Irish man.

He lost his leg but survived the war and worked in Dublin afterwards.

Thanks so much for your help though!

johnny_doyle · 05-10-2010 12:30am

Curiousgal wrote: »

Hi - I'm back with another request!

I have a medal card for Private Jack Sullivan (born 1898 from Dublin) but it doesn't give dates or place of action. I know he was badly injured which would explain his changing from the Royal irish Fusiliers to the Royal Defence Corps but would be interested in what happened and where he was located with both regiments. Can anyone help?!

Royal Irish Fusiliers - Regiment No. 3795

Royal Defence Corps 73206

He received a Victory Medal and British Medal. Remarks on his medal card state: "Ret'd (1743.KR) 7956 Adt

Sev (?) B List

Thanks so much...

Sev (?) B List is SWB List and is a pointer to the Silver War Badge rolls held at the National Archives in London.

Any other info re your Jack Sullivan that would help track him down? Do you have his records for the 1901/11 census?

Ponster · 05-10-2010 7:36am

Curiousgal wrote: »

so I thought that the Royal Irish Fusiliers would be a likely regiment for an Irish man.

I have found often that a lot was decided on where the person signed up and what the need was for at that particular time.

So in fact all we know is that his name was Jack Sullivan and he was born in 1898 in Dublin. He was injured but survived the war. Is that right ?

Curiousgal · 05-10-2010 8:11am

Hi Johnny and Ponster!

Thanks for the interest - this is what I know about Jack Sullivan:

"Jack Sullivan worked in the Inchicore works making trams and buses. Ex British Army, lost his leg from the knee down in the 14-18 war. He lived in Larkfield Road (in Harold's Cross/Kimmage)."

In the 1911 Census, he is living in Mark's Court, Trinity Ward, Dublin, aged 13 with his mother Catherine and others named Stone, Lloyd, Byrne.

Silver War Badge would definitely make sense - seems I have the wrong medal card though...

johnny_doyle · 05-10-2010 7:29pm

he's listed as John in the 1901 census

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Trinity/Mark_s_Court/1311060/

and as John for his baptism

http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/5a94931214783

I've had a quick look at service records and pension records and still not finding a match yet.

The brother Daniel appears with Suillivan as his surname

http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/97b9531221076

johnny_doyle · 05-10-2010 7:39pm

found a George Kelly of Mark's Court, Dublin b1898 who joined up in 1916

Name:George Kelly
Estimated birth year:abt 1898
Age at Enlistment:18
Residence:11 Marks Court, Off Marks St Dublin
Document Year:1916
Regimental Number:26077
Regiment Name:Royal Irish Regiment

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Trinity_Ward/Mark_s_Court/89872/

thought perhaps they might have joined up into the Royal Irish Regiment together and had similar numbers but no joy there.

Curiousgal · 05-10-2010 8:44pm

johnny_doyle wrote: »

he's listed as John in the 1901 census

Hi Johnny,

thanks for all that information. It would make sense for him to have signed up with a neighbour, particularly if they were the same age.

Am I definitely wrong about the medal card Reg. No. 3795 - it just seems it would fit with the Silver War Badge, and changing from Royal Irish Fusiliers to Royal Defence Corps if he couldn't fight because of his injury?

thanks for all your help so far - it's much appreciated.

arnhem44 · 05-10-2010 10:42pm

The Royal Defence Corps weren't formed till 1917 and these were made up of men who had become to old for front line duties or who had been wounded,these men were a full time force.Personally I can't see how a soldier who had lost a leg in the war be still in service,an injury like this would of meant a discharge at minimum unless the loss of his lower leg came as a result of the injury at a later stage.

johnny_doyle · 05-10-2010 11:47pm

Curiousgal wrote: »

johnny_doyle wrote: »

he's listed as John in the 1901 census

Hi Johnny,

thanks for all that information. It would make sense for him to have signed up with a neighbour, particularly if they were the same age.

Am I definitely wrong about the medal card Reg. No. 3795 - it just seems it would fit with the Silver War Badge, and changing from Royal Irish Fusiliers to Royal Defence Corps if he couldn't fight because of his injury?

thanks for all your help so far - it's much appreciated.

are there any medals you know of that belonged to him still with anyone in the family? They would have his service number and unit inscribed.

Curiousgal · 06-10-2010 7:41am

That's interesting about the Royal Defence Corps.

I'll try and find out when he lost his leg and I'll ask the family if any medals still exist - thanks guys!

Information on soldiers in WW1

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