US Presidential Election 2020

quokula · 02-08-2020 9:32pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

Our experience around here and from others I talk to around the country is mainly that the real problem is not people making a political statement about their freedoms or anything else like that, despite the attention that special crowd of idiots is receiving in the press. It's normal, apolitical folk who just want to go enjoy the local grape harvesting, visit friends, hit the beach or bars, and think that the statistics are such that they'll be safe and it won't hit them. You won't believe the frustration my wife is having with her circle of other moms because we're keeping the kid at home whilst all the others seem to be completely flouting any distancing requirements and their kids are doing social interactions, normal development etc, and it's just lengthening the amount of time that we're stuck in the house.

It's weird how you can look at different countries and see a seeming strong correlation between leader competence and "apolitical folk" doing the right thing. It's almost like the actions of leaders make a difference.

Water John · 02-08-2020 9:41pm

Quokola, it's called leadership.

Manic Moran · 02-08-2020 10:49pm

quokula wrote: »

It's weird how you can look at different countries and see a seeming strong correlation between leader competence and "apolitical folk" doing the right thing. It's almost like the actions of leaders make a difference.

OK, we're going a little off-topic, but I'm going to comment anyway as it's a cultural problem the US has.

I'm sorry, but I reject that argument on this issue for three reasons.

Firstly, it's a broad sweeping statement I suspect is derived from your personal opinion of what a competent leader is, and some of the more publicly known numbers. I can tell you that North Korea apparently hasn't a Coronavirus problem. I don't know if I'd call Kim competent or not, though. It also completely ignores any cultural differences between nations, such as the fact that the US has one of the most individualistic cultures in the world. i.e, we're less likely to listen to leaders, be it good or bad, to begin with. If you put a "competent" leader in the White House in March, let's say Leo was suddenly transported over, do you really think the US wouldn't be in about the same situation it is in right now anyway? Trust me, I live here. It wouldn't make a practical difference. We'd have better press conferences, I guess.

Secondly, for those who are inclined to listen to leaders, when it comes to internal affairs, there's a more important leader, the State Governor. Unlike the President, the Governor is actually in charge and can do things. My Commander in Chief is not Trump, it's Abbott. The person who can mandate mask wear here isn't Trump, it's Abbott. The person who decides where to set up testing facilities, Abbott. The person who decides if kids go back to school, Abbott. The person who sets capacity at restaurants, Abbott... I want to find out what's happening with Coronavirus around here, I go to KSAT and click "Coronavirus". As I type this, three headlines reference Abbott's decisions and briefings, none the Federal Government. Let's try something perceived as more biased: Go to Fox News San Antonio's Coronavirus page, it's the same. There's a headline saying Abbott's not going to the RNC convention. Trump's name isn't even on the page. Now whether or not Abbott or Newsom or Ivey or whoever is doing a good job or not can certainly be argued. But that's not something to point to Trump at. And most State governors seem to be doing a relatively competent job, but our infection numbers are pretty poor. What was the effect of leadership on you anyway? Did you really need Leo (I'm assuming you're in Ireland) to wear a mask in order to conclude from the briefings and news reports that it would be the correct thing to do?

Thirdly, and most importantly, the information is out there and we are talking about something an individual can affect, it's not exactly national legislation here. There is precisely one person to point to for the actions of an individual. No matter how good or bad the President's actions (and I assure you, I am not putting him in the "good" category), individuals have the information they need. It's coming at them from CNN, it's coming at them from the State governments, it's coming at them from their Facebook feeds. I couldn't give a damn what Trump, Abbott or Nirenberg says if people around here actually engaged two functioning brain cells and assessed their own actions. According to a poll on 538 two days ago, only 10% of Americans are not worried about infection. I guarantee you that more than 10% of Americans are being idiots when it comes to Coronavirus protection. Trump could have worn a mask from Day 1 and these people would be acting the same way. "It won't affect me, I'm healthy, and the chances are too small to catch it in the first place. Besides, I want to hang out with Joe." One article on the matter made the comparison to the "No shirt, no shoes, no service" signs: Mask wear isn't really any different, but the former is culturally ingrained to Americans over years. Masks are not.

That's what's infuriating me and the wife. It's not the leadership. For something like infection risk reduction, it's a very simple concept to grasp, it's within everyone's capability to carry it out, They know COVID is real. They know that physical distancing and masks can reduce infection. Many of them have no time for either Trump or Abbott. I have no complaints about the leadership in my county, they've taken all the right steps and quickly. I've only one complaint about Abbott. Yet a few weeks ago, we had the second-highest rate of infection in the country. And, for better or worse, they each have a vote the same as ours.

We are, what, five months into this now? If there was a time that the Federal Government could have had much effect, it was months ago. Infection rates now are the fault of the people, the vast majority of whom should know better.

Water John · 02-08-2020 11:06pm

Manic you're a member of the Army of US TMK. So an army general tells all his sergeants to each conduct their section as they see fit. Give me a break.

everlast75 · 03-08-2020 12:40am

Manic Moran wrote: »

OK, we're going a little off-topic, but I'm going to comment anyway as it's a cultural problem the US has.

I'm sorry, but I reject that argument on this issue for three reasons.

Firstly, it's a broad sweeping statement I suspect is derived from your personal opinion of what a competent leader is, and some of the more publicly known numbers. I can tell you that North Korea apparently hasn't a Coronavirus problem. I don't know if I'd call Kim competent or not, though. It also completely ignores any cultural differences between nations, such as the fact that the US has one of the most individualistic cultures in the world. i.e, we're less likely to listen to leaders, be it good or bad, to begin with. If you put a "competent" leader in the White House in March, let's say Leo was suddenly transported over, do you really think the US wouldn't be in about the same situation it is in right now anyway? Trust me, I live here. It wouldn't make a practical difference. We'd have better press conferences, I guess.

Secondly, for those who are inclined to listen to leaders, when it comes to internal affairs, there's a more important leader, the State Governor. Unlike the President, the Governor is actually in charge and can do things. My Commander in Chief is not Trump, it's Abbott. The person who can mandate mask wear here isn't Trump, it's Abbott. The person who decides where to set up testing facilities, Abbott. The person who decides if kids go back to school, Abbott. The person who sets capacity at restaurants, Abbott... I want to find out what's happening with Coronavirus around here, I go to KSAT and click "Coronavirus". As I type this, three headlines reference Abbott's decisions and briefings, none the Federal Government. Let's try something perceived as more biased: Go to Fox News San Antonio's Coronavirus page, it's the same. There's a headline saying Abbott's not going to the RNC convention. Trump's name isn't even on the page. Now whether or not Abbott or Newsom or Ivey or whoever is doing a good job or not can certainly be argued. But that's not something to point to Trump at. And most State governors seem to be doing a relatively competent job, but our infection numbers are pretty poor. What was the effect of leadership on you anyway? Did you really need Leo (I'm assuming you're in Ireland) to wear a mask in order to conclude from the briefings and news reports that it would be the correct thing to do?

Thirdly, and most importantly, the information is out there and we are talking about something an individual can affect, it's not exactly national legislation here. There is precisely one person to point to for the actions of an individual. No matter how good or bad the President's actions (and I assure you, I am not putting him in the "good" category), individuals have the information they need. It's coming at them from CNN, it's coming at them from the State governments, it's coming at them from their Facebook feeds. I couldn't give a damn what Trump, Abbott or Nirenberg says if people around here actually engaged two functioning brain cells and assessed their own actions. According to a poll on 538 two days ago, only 10% of Americans are not worried about infection. I guarantee you that more than 10% of Americans are being idiots when it comes to Coronavirus protection. Trump could have worn a mask from Day 1 and these people would be acting the same way. "It won't affect me, I'm healthy, and the chances are too small to catch it in the first place. Besides, I want to hang out with Joe." One article on the matter made the comparison to the "No shirt, no shoes, no service" signs: Mask wear isn't really any different, but the former is culturally ingrained to Americans over years. Masks are not.

That's what's infuriating me and the wife. It's not the leadership. For something like infection risk reduction, it's a very simple concept to grasp, it's within everyone's capability to carry it out, They know COVID is real. They know that physical distancing and masks can reduce infection. Many of them have no time for either Trump or Abbott. I have no complaints about the leadership in my county, they've taken all the right steps and quickly. I've only one complaint about Abbott. Yet a few weeks ago, we had the second-highest rate of infection in the country. And, for better or worse, they each have a vote the same as ours.

We are, what, five months into this now? If there was a time that the Federal Government could have had much effect, it was months ago. Infection rates now are the fault of the people, the vast majority of whom should know better.

1) North Korea is a dictatorship. Not comparable

2) president < governors in the main. He could and should lead by example

3) fox is pumping misinformation about the virus. Fox is everywhere in the US. That's a huge problem

Igotadose · 03-08-2020 9:45am

Hey, the Federal Government *did* have testing centers, so the governors and states weren't the implementors. Of course, those got shut down.
I even remember a Covid briefing where the #IMPOTUS crowed about testing centers in Walmart parking lots, and a trip he made to the CDC stating there were 'beautiful tests' and 'anyone could get one.' These weren't State actions, these were Federal he was talking about.

mm_surf · 03-08-2020 1:16pm

Has any other country apart from the US politized the wearing of masks? (To any significant extent)

Ironically, i do get the argument that a federal mandate is "iffy" from a constitutional standpoint - but regardless of its constitutionality, it should still be advocated by anyone in a leadership capacity.

The issue is the "mandate" part, not the mask wearing part. But at least here in the midwest, its used as an excuse to not wear masks.

M.

Nody · 03-08-2020 1:31pm

mm_surf wrote: »

Has any other country apart from the US politized the wearing of masks?

Brazil (Trump 2.0) comes to mind (it even ended up in court if the President was to wear a mask or not) and of course never to forget Belarus president who believes vodka and sauna works better and you could argue Germany with the protests against the corona restrictions (it's a bit wider than only the masks and a very wide set of reasons among the various protesters).

briany · 03-08-2020 3:40pm

mm_surf wrote: »

Has any other country apart from the US politized the wearing of masks? (To any significant extent)

Ironically, i do get the argument that a federal mandate is "iffy" from a constitutional standpoint - but regardless of its constitutionality, it should still be advocated by anyone in a leadership capacity.

The issue is the "mandate" part, not the mask wearing part. But at least here in the midwest, its used as an excuse to not wear masks.

M.

I don't know of any other country in the English-speaking world where mask wearing is such a hot-button issue.

Many Americans appear to have a deep mistrust of their federal government. This seems problematic in times of country-wide emergency when you really need to get everyone on the same page quickly.

Muahahaha · 03-08-2020 3:47pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

It also completely ignores any cultural differences between nations, such as the fact that the US has one of the most individualistic cultures in the world. i.e, we're less likely to listen to leaders, be it good or bad, to begin with. If you put a "competent" leader in the White House in March, let's say Leo was suddenly transported over, do you really think the US wouldn't be in about the same situation it is in right now anyway? Trust me, I live here. It wouldn't make a practical difference. We'd have better press conferences, I guess.

I think that is a big factor, Americans are culturally hard wired towards individualism. Collectivist ideas like socialism are anathema to most Americans who are highly individualistic in nature. They simply dont believe in the concept of a society working together for a common good.

You can see the differences in outcomes to the two approaches by the way culturally collectivist societies in Asia like South Korea are doing very well with controlling the virus. I remember reading before that Asian collectivism comes from thousands of years of them growing rice, rather than each family owning their own plot then entire village will work together to tend a huge paddy field. They figuered out that the harvests would be bigger by working together as a unit rather than individually. That collectivist cultural mind set is still prevalent today in their technology and car manufacturing industries. Its much of the reason why Asian countries like Japan and South Korea have done so well in preventing massive outbreaks of the virus. No one gets the idea of society working together for a common goal better than Asians do.

But I dont agree that just because Americans are individualistic that a good leader could not have persuaded them and brought them along a road towards widespread mask wearing, social distancing, etc. Its a global pandemic and Trump declared he is on a war footing. Pretty much every other world leader has adopted the same war footing approach and that resulted in the 'rally around the flag' effect whereby citizens realised the seriousness of the virus and listened to what their leaders were telling them to do. Leaders worldwide are enjoying historically high approval ratings as a result.

Trump is not because while he said he was putting the US on a war footing what he actually meant was he was going to attack public health policy (as laid down by Fauci). Trumps war is the economy vs public health rather than it being public health vs. the virus as pretty much every other nation has done.

Looking back on previous Presidents from Obama, Bush Jnr & Snr, Clinton, Reagan and if they were in this situation they all would have done a better job than Trump. Bush Jnr wasnt the sharpest tool in the box but like Trump and six other American presidents before him he would have had Dr.Fauci at his side and I believe he would have listened to him rather than attack him and go against his advice. In my lifetime I dont think there is any previous American president who would have handled the virus as badly as Trump has.

I just couldnt imagine any of those previous Presidents tweeting 'Liberate Michigan, Liberate Minnesota!' in complete contravention of public health advice, he literally undermined it. Its Trumps divisive leadership and constant U turns that are the problem here. He could have been a unifying figure like EU and Asian leaders have been and dealt with the virus a lot better. It was his choice to go down the divisive route and we're seeing the results of that now and it ain't pretty.

s1ippy · 03-08-2020 3:50pm

They literally had to bring fans to the Trump rally (Florida). The low numbers could indicate that people are slowly waking up to the fact that it's dangerous to have a person like him in charge. Or they might all be dying.

Overheal · 03-08-2020 8:22pm

s1ippy wrote: »

They literally had to bring fans to the Trump rally (Florida). The low numbers could indicate that people are slowly waking up to the fact that it's dangerous to have a person like him in charge. Or they might all be dying.

This is how Trump described that "crowd" today

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1290308363872538624?s=20

Headshot · 03-08-2020 8:30pm

Why is there a circle drawn around that individual?

Is it because he's only person observing social distance?

Water John · 03-08-2020 9:17pm

It's a physical working fan, not the person I think.

Rjd2 · 04-08-2020 4:23am

Manic Moran wrote: »

Whether the TikTok ban is an attempt to suppress opposition votes or not does not make the underlying concern false. Folks should not be supporting TikTok just because Trump wants it gone, which may well be the limit of some analysis. TikTok security has been questioned for a while, and not just by the Government (DoD and DHS have banned it for months https://threatpost.com/tiktok-banned-by-u-s-army-over-china-security-concerns/151480/ ). India have banned it, both the Democrat and Republican National Committees have banned it on their systems ( https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/10/politics/dnc-warning-tiktok/index.html ), Wells Fargo Bank has banned it, https://www.theverge.com/2020/7/11/21320935/wells-fargo-bans-tiktok-devices-amazon-pompeo , Amazon "Accidentally" banned it, then unbanned it...https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/10/technology/tiktok-amazon-security-risk.html

From the NYT article:
TikTok has long been a concern of American intelligence officials, who fear the social networking app is a thinly veiled data collection service. Over the past six months, security researchers have only furthered those concerns with a series of discoveries.

Last month, a researcher uncovered that TikTok had the ability to siphon off anything a user copied to a clipboard on a smartphone — passwords, photos and other sensitive data like Social Security numbers, emails and texts. The researcher began posting the findings on the online message board Reddit.

The researcher, who goes by the handle Bangorlol, also said that TikTok was capturing data about a user’s phone hardware and data on other apps installed on the phone. Many of these abilities are found in other apps, but TikTok’s developers had gone out of their way to prevent anyone from analyzing the app, the researcher said.

“This was very concerning and very rare,” Oded Vanunu, who leads research into product vulnerability at the Israeli security firm Check Point, said about the findings. “There’s been a lot of fear and speculation about this app, but the recent findings are raising big questions.”

The Tiktok "debate" has been abysmal,, I don't know if this is the right idea nor do I trust Trump did it for good reasons, but its far from his worst decision to say the least.

Even for social media, its a very morally questionable site .

everlast75 · 04-08-2020 7:22am

This is quite the interview. How Swan landed it I don't know.

Is say that he'll never get one again, but Trump probably thought it went brilliantly so I'm not sure.

https://twitter.com/imkialikethecar/status/1290504991904415744?s=19

Many, many headlines in 37 minutes. A complete case crash, way worse than his run in with Wallace.

Water John · 04-08-2020 10:09am

Will look at that, Everlast.
Is Trump gone all socialist, wanting the state to get a cut of the sale of TikTok? Or is it more more in the shape of a good old fashioned, shakedown?

hetuzozaho · 04-08-2020 10:50am

Manic Moran wrote: »

It's not a matter of education or informed. These people all know what they're supposed to do, they just aren't doing it. It's not so much a matter of intelligence or knowledge, as a total lack of self-discipline.

"Oh, I'm quarantining" "Bullcrap. You were at a party yesterday. You even posted about it on Facebook. No, I don't care that it was the only time you left the house in the whole week, one party a week isn't self-quarantine"

That's the idiocy I'm dealing with around here, and I'm gathering that I'm not exactly alone in this.

Unfortunately the idiocy around masks etc started at the top. When you've an idiot running the show it's never gonna go well.

Penn · 04-08-2020 11:00am

Water John wrote: »

Will look at that, Everlast.
Is Trump gone all socialist, wanting the state to get a cut of the sale of TikTok? Or is it more more in the shape of a good old fashioned, shakedown?

He'll claim that it's akin to getting money from China themselves, in revenge for the virus, therefore it's a big win for America all thanks to Trump

... as the death toll continues to rise and likely none of that money goes towards fighting the virus or saving lives in any way.

serfboard · 04-08-2020 3:24pm

briany wrote: »

Many Americans appear to have a deep mistrust of their federal government. This seems problematic in times of country-wide emergency when you really need to get everyone on the same page quickly.

There are many Americans who have a deep distrust of Science too - a country where you can laughably teach creation "science" alongside evolution as a "competing theory", where people don't believe in Dinosaurs becuase they're not mentioned in the Bible, where people believe that carbon dating is fake, where people don't believe in climate change and numerous other examples.

Oh well. The virus doesn't care if you don't belive in Science - it'll kill you anyway.

SimonTemplar · 04-08-2020 4:19pm

serfboard wrote: »

There are many Americans who have a deep distrust of Science too - a country where you can laughably teach creation "science" alongside evolution as a "competing theory", where people don't believe in Dinosaurs becuase they're not mentioned in the Bible, where people believe that carbon dating is fake, where people don't believe in climate change and numerous other examples.

Oh well. The virus doesn't care if you don't belive in Science - it'll kill you anyway.

There is also a big problem of some politicians distrusting or misunderstanding science, and this is particularly evident during congress testimonies involving members of the STEM community.

Muahahaha · 04-08-2020 4:32pm

serfboard wrote: »

There are many Americans who have a deep distrust of Science too - a country where you can laughably teach creation "science" alongside evolution as a "competing theory", where people don't believe in Dinosaurs becuase they're not mentioned in the Bible, where people believe that carbon dating is fake, where people don't believe in climate change and numerous other examples.

Oh well. The virus doesn't care if you don't belive in Science - it'll kill you anyway.

I always find it ironic that the US has given the world extremely important scientific discoveries yet theres a section of the population that question science as a whole.

Overheal · 04-08-2020 5:02pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

I always find it ironic that the US has given the world extremely important scientific discoveries yet theres a section of the population that question science as a whole.

I think the smart section of the population is more highly motivated when they are constantly surrounded by imbeciles.

stinkypinky · 04-08-2020 5:08pm

Overheal wrote: »

I think the smart section of the population is more highly motivated when they are constantly surrounded by imbeciles.

Indeed, last time I checked the gender list was up to 58. Dumb part of the population fails to acknowledge them though.

mm_surf · 04-08-2020 6:16pm

Next couple of days are high stakes. Congress goes on a 4 week hiatus after friday.
Deal on the 2nd bailout needs to be agreed, or else 4 weeks of the remaining time to election day will be doing nothing for the voters.
Trump badly needs a few wins to take into the debates with Biden.
This may explain the hard push to open schools, etc.
And he'll be really against states closing down again, no matter how bad the figures get (corona, job, or otherwise!)

M.

Rjd2 · 05-08-2020 10:09pm

The constant dump of attack pieces on Karen Bass while expected with such high stakes have been wild but damn don't **** around with the Susan Rice campaign team.!

Itssoeasy · 05-08-2020 11:21pm

Rjd2 wrote: »

The constant dump of attack pieces on Karen Bass while expected with such high stakes have been wild but damn don't **** around with the Susan Rice campaign team.!

Are you saying that Susan rices campaign team(why would she need one yet) are behind the attack pieces ?

Overheal · 05-08-2020 11:38pm

Whatever to all these pro and anti articles all summer long, they are all trial-balloons for the VP slot to see how the public considers the candidates. When Biden himself used the term last week to refer to Trumps question of delaying the election it clicked with me he and his campaign have probably been bandying around the term for months; they know well the game going on with these articles, if not actively encouraging it.

Rjd2 · 06-08-2020 12:35am

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Are you saying that Susan rices campaign team(why would she need one yet) are behind the attack pieces ?

Susan is not exactly a newbie when it comes to politics, so quite possible it's someone from the Obama era.I think even the biggest MSNBC echo chamber fanatic would admit its obviously Dem on Dem action.

Happens everywhere though, and when you consider the upside of been Biden VP then it was always going to get ugly here.

Bit of a shame really, Bass seems more interesting than pretty much all the front runners but alas not to be.

mcmoustache · 06-08-2020 12:41am

Rjd2 wrote: »

The constant dump of attack pieces on Karen Bass while expected with such high stakes have been wild but damn don't **** around with the Susan Rice campaign team.!

Was that about the scientology stuff or am I mixing things up again?

US Presidential Election 2020

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