Dublin Marathon 2010

Krusty_Clown · 28-09-2010 11:18pm

3 stars (average)

Bez Bing wrote: »

RayCun and KC I get what your saying I guess Im just looking for ways to justify what I have been doing in my training. Its obviously too late to go back and change things and up to now I have not had any adverse effects from my long runs as in I have been able to keep with my program and have had no injuries (touch wood) so far.

If you've survived until now, then it's not done you any harm. In fact it probably indicates that you could go a little quicker, or at the very least that you'll be very well trained to run at that pace for the marathon. I wouldn't go changing anything at this stage (I think RayCun has said all of this verbatim already!) just watch out for signs of injury and over-training, and if you still feel comfortable at mile 22-23 in the marathon, run a little faster!

Badbark · 29-09-2010 8:04am

menoscemo wrote: »

Not really. For me a good recovery run would be 9 min/mile+. I would have a recovery run the day after a tough speed session or a long run. PMP is 8 min/mile. General Aerobic for me would be 8-9 min/mile.
For an LT session I would generally be running 4+ continous miles at 7-:7:15/mile pace. For a VO2 max session I would generally be running shorter intervals (anything up to a mile) at 5k-10k Pace (6:30ish per mile).

For me junk miles would be a short run (4-8 miles) at 7:30-8:00 min/mile. It serves no purpose: it is too fast for recovery and too slow for a speed session. It does nothing other than leave me unduly tired for my key sessions in the rest of the week (vo2max, LT runs, LSR's etc) while giving no greater Aerobic benefit than a much slower (GA pace) run would have done.

Hmmm, don't you think that 4 -8 miles at PMP or slightly faster is a good session if you’re in marathon training? The only time I feel I am running junk miles is if I’m running recovery runs too fast. Here is a good article that I agree with - http://www.hillrunner.com/articles/article.php/junk_miles_myth

menoscemo · 29-09-2010 9:34am

4 stars (good)

Badbark wrote: »

Hmmm, don't you think that 4 -8 miles at PMP or slightly faster is a good session if you’re in marathon training? The only time I feel I am running junk miles is if I’m running recovery runs too fast. Here is a good article that I agree with - http://www.hillrunner.com/articles/article.php/junk_miles_myth

Nice Article. I actually agree with waht he is saying. Junk Pace is a better description than Junk Miles. His conclusion is exactly the same as what I was saying above:

wrote:

Now that I went through this whole explanation, I'm going to throw a wrench in it. In most cases where I see people not getting through workouts, it's not because they are running too many miles on their easy days. It's because they are running too fast on their easy days, what you might call junk pace. There is no harm in running your easy days very slow. You will still build the aerobic systems that the aerobic runs are designed to build and you will recover more. In fact, the longer you are out there, the more work your body will do to build those aerobic systems. So, in many ways, an 80 minute run at 10 minutes per mile can be better than a 40 minute run at 8 minutes per mile.

Sorry for dragging the thread off topic

MisterDrak · 29-09-2010 9:52am

4 stars (good)

menoscemo wrote: »

If you train at a slower intensity, it allows you to spend more time on your feet. If you run 20 miles at 10 minute/mile pace that's 3hrs 20 on your feet and moving, that is the whole point of LSR's, getting used to being a long time on your feet. If I run 20 miles slow, my legs are just as tired (if not more so) than if I run 20 miles fast, so the benefit in terms of getting your legs used to the longer distance is the same.

Speed development is what you should be doing during your shorter midweek runs.

Running at a lower intensity also helps your body develop it's fat burning capabilities. Come the big day your body will only have about 18-20 miles worth of Glycogen stored up, so it needs to be burning some fat aswell as glycogen in order to last the 26.2 miles. If you run all your Long Runs at a high intensity (and your short runs even faster) you will be burning pure Glycogen all the time. Glycogen will not be enough on the day (running out of Glycogen is also known as hitting the wall).

By doing all your training at a high intensity you are also severely increasing your chances of burn-out and injury. many marathon runners will talk about leaving their race on the training ground and having nothing left come the big day (i.e. over training).

Any training programe you will find advises running LSR's at anythin between 10-20% slower than PMP (though many LSR's would include several miles @ PMP). for the reasons listed above.

At last the LSR pacing de-mistified... Im probably similar to the previous poster. Running the LSR at 7:30 feels right, any slower and it feels wrong. Anyway i better slow up, before its to late!!! Thanks menoscemo.

Bez Bing · 29-09-2010 10:19am

4 stars (good)

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

If you've survived until now, then it's not done you any harm. In fact it probably indicates that you could go a little quicker, or at the very least that you'll be very well trained to run at that pace for the marathon. I wouldn't go changing anything at this stage (I think RayCun has said all of this verbatim already!) just watch out for signs of injury and over-training, and if you still feel comfortable at mile 22-23 in the marathon, run a little faster!

Thanks again Krusty, I think that's good advice, Im just going to continue with my "public goal" of a sub 4 hour marathon and hopefully finish strongly. Better to finish some way comfortable at 3:5X and come back and do a better time in the future than to go run too quickly, break down and never run another one!

rovers_runner · 29-09-2010 2:11pm

4 stars (good)

Entries closing next Monday at 5pm.....
Are there many who leave it till the last minute to enter? It's €25 or so dearer for the Irish people who could have registered before Aug.

plodder · 29-09-2010 2:38pm

4 stars (good)

rovers_runner wrote: »

Entries closing next Monday at 5pm.....
Are there many who leave it till the last minute to enter? It's €25 or so dearer for the Irish people who could have registered before Aug.

I used to leave it to the last day to register, the reason being the risk of getting injured (as happened last year) and therefore losing the whole amount. But, there was a discount this year for entering any of the race series and the marathon together. So, it wasn't worth waiting I think.

Feels like it's getting close now, with the entries closing soon. :eek:

MisterDrak · 29-09-2010 3:25pm

4 stars (good)

On a different topic, is anyone going to be running the second half of the actual DCM 10 route as their (tapered) LSR next sunday Week (October 10th)???

I guess this is a good idea???

Bez Bing · 29-09-2010 3:39pm

4 stars (good)

MisterDrak wrote: »

On a different topic, is anyone going to be running the second half of the actual DCM 10 route as their (tapered) LSR next sunday Week (October 10th)???

I guess this is a good idea???

Why ruin the surprise!

RayCun · 29-09-2010 3:41pm

4 stars (good)

Bez Bing wrote: »

Why ruin the surprise!

+1

dowlinj · 29-09-2010 3:56pm

3 stars (average)

MisterDrak wrote: »

On a different topic, is anyone going to be running the second half of the actual DCM 10 route as their (tapered) LSR next sunday Week (October 10th)???

I guess this is a good idea???

Was thinking of doing my 20 mile LSR around part of the route this Saturday. I'd probably cut out the city centre sections, but reckon it would be nice to get a feel for what to expect. Plenty of shops along the route for my drink stops too

MisterDrak · 29-09-2010 3:56pm

4 stars (good)

RayCun wrote: »

+1

Forget about the +1 RayCun, you just worry about the 1000 mile

;);)...

RayCun · 29-09-2010 4:23pm

4 stars (good)

MisterDrak wrote: »

Forget about the +1 RayCun, you just worry about the 1000 mile ;);)...

Just heading out for an 8 mile run now... or should I make it 12...?;)

Krusty_Clown · 29-09-2010 4:32pm

3 stars (average)

dowlinj wrote: »

Was thinking of doing my 20 mile LSR around part of the route this Saturday. I'd probably cut out the city centre sections, but reckon it would be nice to get a feel for what to expect. Plenty of shops along the route for my drink stops too

I did that before. I've seen it recommended in a number of training plans too (specifically to run the last 6 miles of the race). I did a 22 mile run a couple of weeks before DCM 2008 that took in much of the final 10 miles or so, and almost injured myself with all the stop-start from crossing roads and running around tourists, so a Sunday morning would be best! But it definitely helps on race day to be able to associate land marks with getting closer to the finish line.

tunguska · 29-09-2010 4:37pm

4 stars (good)

If anybody is interested I'll be cycling the Dublin marathon route someday before the 25th. Be well worth it.

Jnealon · 29-09-2010 6:08pm

3 stars (average)

tunguska wrote: »

If anybody is interested I'll be cycling the Dublin marathon route someday before the 25th. Be well worth it.

You mean time trialling, no thanks

tunguska · 29-09-2010 6:38pm

4 stars (good)

Jnealon wrote: »

You mean time trialling, no thanks

No it'll be an easy paced bike ride thats all, nothing strenuous.

tunguska · 29-09-2010 8:34pm

4 stars (good)

Also just to say that last year my garmin had the course at 26.6miles, same for everybody I spoke with after. And I believe it was the same thing the year before. Not saying the course isnt accurate, in fact Id say its bang on. But the Garmins seem to add on about 600meters for the whole course. I remember going through 13.1miles last year by the garmin and it was over a full minute before I went through the race halfway point. So If youre looking for a close one like 2:59 it'd be well worth adjusting your strategy for an extra 600meters(if you go by the garmin). 600m would be worth about 2minutes Id say.

Condo131 · 29-09-2010 9:47pm

4 stars (good)

tunguska wrote: »

Also just to say that last year my garmin had the course at 26.6miles, same for everybody I spoke with after. And I believe it was the same thing the year before. Not saying the course isnt accurate, in fact Id say its bang on. But the Garmins seem to add on about 600meters for the whole course. I remember going through 13.1miles last year by the garmin and it was over a full minute before I went through the race halfway point. So If youre looking for a close one like 2:59 it'd be well worth adjusting your strategy for an extra 600meters(if you go by the garmin). 600m would be worth about 2minutes Id say.

Couple of points:
1. GPS devices aren't accurate enough - even Garmins
2. It is virtually impossible to run the SPR (Shortest Possible Route)
3. Run by the official official markers, not your watch.

Hugh Jones, head honcho for AIMS Europe, had an article in Runner's World recently. From what I recall, he said that the accuracy for a jones Counter was 0.1%, Surveyors wheel was 0.2% , GPS devices were 4% and pedometers were 10%. There's plenty of info available to show that GPS devices cannot be relied upon to the extent that is required for measurement. Don't bet your life on one - I certainly wouldn't!

wrt the SPR, I'm forever bemoaning the number of people who don't seem to want to even try to run the SPR. In every race almost everyone else seems to want to run the 'scenic route'. Your GPS reading is going to be out even more after that.

Btw, how many people hit the lap button on their GPS watch when they pass the mile mark? I do! Most GPS users that I know don't - they rely on the GPS reading, whereas I always go on the measured miles. In Dublin, I'll be going purely on elapsed time and mile marks. Garmin is just a useful tool for me - not something to be revered as some sort of infallible thing that cannot be done without.

Badbark · 30-09-2010 7:49am

Great post Condo and I can confirm that my Garmin measured the DCM last year at 26.58 miles as tunguska says.

What will the pacers groups be using to measure their distance and times? Specifically, what will the 3:15 group be doing as I hope to run with them?

donothoponpop · 30-09-2010 8:25am

4 stars (good)

Badbark wrote: »

Great post Condo and I can confirm that my Garmin measured the DCM last year at 26.58 miles as tunguska says.

What will the pacers groups be using to measure their distance and times? Specifically, what will the 3:15 group be doing as I hope to run with them?

All the pacers for each time band will use the mile markers as their primary measurement, meaning they will be running a steady pace throughout, and hit each mile split with the markers, checking from their pacing band. Each will also use a Garmin set to average pace, as backup. Their pace bands are designed to bring the group home 30 secs before the time printed on their balloons (so the 3:15 group will come home in 3:14:30).
Line up behind them at the start area, they'll have huge balloons, and signs, with their pace band on them (3:00, 3:15, 3:30, 3:45, 4:00, 4:30), times will be chip to chip (from when you cross the start line to the finish line).

Peckham · 30-09-2010 9:06am

tunguska wrote: »

Also just to say that last year my garmin had the course at 26.6miles, same for everybody I spoke with after. And I believe it was the same thing the year before. Not saying the course isnt accurate, in fact Id say its bang on. But the Garmins seem to add on about 600meters for the whole course. I remember going through 13.1miles last year by the garmin and it was over a full minute before I went through the race halfway point. So If youre looking for a close one like 2:59 it'd be well worth adjusting your strategy for an extra 600meters(if you go by the garmin). 600m would be worth about 2minutes Id say.

Just to add some evidence to this. I ran 2:58 in Berlin. My Garmin stats show that I ran at an average pace of 6:44/mile (for 26.59 miles). Realistically a sub-3 pace is 6:45/mile, not 6:50/mile (which you'd get if you divided 26.2 miles by 179 minutes). Same adjustment obviously applies to 3:15, 3:30 or whatever.

Badbark · 30-09-2010 9:07am

donothoponpop wrote: »

All the pacers for each time band will use the mile markers as their primary measurement, meaning they will be running a steady pace throughout, and hit each mile split with the markers, checking from their pacing band. Each will also use a Garmin set to average pace, as backup. Their pace bands are designed to bring the group home 30 secs before the time printed on their balloons (so the 3:15 group will come home in 3:14:30).
Line up behind them at the start area, they'll have huge balloons, and signs, with their pace band on them (3:00, 3:15, 3:30, 3:45, 4:00, 4:30), times will be chip to chip (from when you cross the start line to the finish line).

Thanks, very informative!

Krusty_Clown · 30-09-2010 9:36am

3 stars (average)

This is where I apparently ran through the Ministry of Justice building in Berlin Marathon at the weekend:

This is an example of why my pace was reported as 7 seconds per miles faster than I actually ran. Apparently I ran 26:64 miles, but it's not just down to race line. It's also down to GPS inaccuracy. I've seen a number of tracklogs from the Berlin marathon so far, and all of them have been way off the mark. Thankfully I was using my Garmin for the stopwatch, and had a paceband.

Look forward to running with you on the day, Badbark!

robinph · 30-09-2010 9:49am

3 stars (average)

Are the buildings taller and closer together in Berlin than around Dublin, not a place known for it's sky scrapers?

BrokenMan · 30-09-2010 9:57am

4 stars (good)

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

This is where I apparently ran through the Ministry of Justice building in Berlin Marathon at the weekend:

Now Krusty that's just showing off. You went sightseeing and still ran a 2:48

Badbark · 30-09-2010 9:58am

I've attached a file that shows how my Garmin measured the last mile or so of the DCM last year. I was half dead at the time but I certainly wasn't weaving about like this!

Thanks Krusty, I look forward to running with you too. I'm attempting an 11+ minute PB so I hope I'll still be with you at the end!

Speedy44 · 30-09-2010 10:36am

Peckham wrote: »

Just to add some evidence to this. I ran 2:58 in Berlin. My Garmin stats show that I ran at an average pace of 6:44/mile (for 26.59 miles). Realistically a sub-3 pace is 6:45/mile, not 6:50/mile (which you'd get if you divided 26.2 miles by 179 minutes). Same adjustment obviously applies to 3:15, 3:30 or whatever.

well thats just great, 6:52/ml seemed doable, 6:45/ml seems scarey :eek: (as I anxiously bite my nails :rolleyes: )

village runner · 30-09-2010 7:49pm

Speedy44 wrote: »

well thats just great, 6:52/ml seemed doable, 6:45/ml seems scarey :eek: (as I anxiously bite my nails :rolleyes: )

I remember my first marathon aiming for 3.30. I ran 8 min miles flat on the garmin. I ran 3.31.07. Since then I have learnt to have a pace band. If there is a pacer for your time. Let him/her have all the pressure. Keep your gob shut for the duration of the race as its energy you will need. I spoke once in a recent marathon to tell a lad to move up the field. I think so its 2-3 seconds on a garmin. Best of luck to all on the day.

aero2k · 30-09-2010 7:56pm

BrokenMan wrote: »

Now Krusty that's just showing off. You went sightseeing and still ran a 2:48

Hit the wall(s) at least 4 times as well!

Dublin Marathon 2010

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