Water charges for excessive usage

Boggles · 19-07-2019 2:39pm

markodaly wrote: »

Other countries also waste money. I know, that might be surprising to hear,

Not at all, I imagine they do, not to our level when it comes to spending the public's money mind.

But other countries have a thing called "accountability".

markodaly wrote: »

but that should not detract from the fundamental point that water is a utility and should be paid for.

It is paid for. Go home this evening and turn on your tap if you need proof.

Now TBF, you are making a classic mistake. You think if it charged for at source then magically we will get a better service.

Silly rabbit.

Loads of memories flooding back.

Remember the time Irish Water spend 6k on laughing yoga?

Plumbthedepths · 19-07-2019 2:42pm

Boggles wrote:

Remember the time Irish Water spend 6k on laughing yoga?

Laughing yoga was a minor thing, bonuses were incorporated into the set up before a leaky tap was fixed .

James Brown · 19-07-2019 2:45pm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

I did answer just not to your liking. You need it grow up a d move on.

B likes to drag his little jolities on and on and on after a while you realise he has no point to make. Don't waste your time.

TuringBot47 wrote: »

Taxation only taxes the decent people who work and contribute tax.

In fairness, property tax and water tax are trying to "tax" everyone equally and avoid directly dropping the generous social welfare payments.

This was another flaw. The tax payer always pays. Billing people on welfare seems great and all but that's coming from the tax payer. We'd likely save on administration by not carrying on the farce.

Boggles · 19-07-2019 2:47pm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Laughing yoga was a minor thing, bonuses were incorporated into the set up before a leaky tap was fixed .

Laughing Yoga was a minor spend, all though 6k isn't that minor TBF.

Someones annual tax liability laughed into thin air.

It was indicative of what Irish Water was and would become if it were allowed borrow on the opening market.

Unsustainable.

James Brown · 19-07-2019 2:47pm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Laughing yoga was a minor thing, bonuses were incorporated into the set up before a leaky tap was fixed .

That was another. When there was talk of closing it, it's supporters, those who oft thread these boards complaining about unions and civil servants, were quick to point out the contracts IW had entered into meant it would cost us a fortune to try wind it down. With all the FG pals on the board it's quite clear FG are the bigger problem not unions or civil servants.

Plumbthedepths · 19-07-2019 2:48pm

Matt Barrett wrote:

B likes to drag his like jolities on and on and on after a while you realise he has no point to make. Don't waste your time.

Noted and I'd rather not derail the thread.

iguana · 19-07-2019 2:48pm

I wonder how many of the 80k houses using excessive water are on a shared supply. Irish Water semi regularly contacts me to tell me I must have a leak because of excessive water usage at my house. It doesn't matter how many times I tell them that I'm not the only house using my supply, they keep forgetting and contacting me again. It's a total waste of money because they are unable to deal with a scenario that they know about but don't seem to take into account. I have no doubt that I'm being counted as one of those 80k houses, when from what I can work out, our water usage per household on the supply is actually low.

corks finest · 19-07-2019 2:49pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Laughing yoga was a minor thing, bonuses were incorporated into the set up before a leaky tap was fixed .

That was another. When there was talk of closing it, it's supporters, those who oft thread these boards complaining about unions and civil servants, were quick to point out the contracts IW had entered into meant it would cost us a fortune to try wind it down. With all the FG pals on the board it's quite clear FG are the bigger problem not unions or civil servants.

FG and wafflee Leo need to f**k off out of our lives fast

James Brown · 19-07-2019 2:54pm

iguana wrote: »

I wonder how many of the 80k houses using excessive water are on a shared supply. Irish Water semi regularly contacts me to tell me I must have a leak because of excessive water usage at my house. It doesn't matter how many times I tell them that I'm not the only house using my supply, they keep forgetting and contacting me again. It's a total waste of money because they are unable to deal with a scenario that they know about but don't seem to take into account. I have no doubt that I'm being counted as one of those 80k houses, when from what I can work out, our water usage per household on the supply is actually low.

Send a registered letter to the head of that department, (billing?). I had a similar issue with Eircom a long time ago. I cancelled my account and they kept sending bills. Every cycle I had to call and get them to quash it. Then next cycle I was hit again. I sent a registered letter to the head of billing explaining the situation and that was the last I heard of it.

TuringBot47 · 19-07-2019 2:56pm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Everyone pays tax, income tax is not the only form of tax we pay.

But if you're talking about the unemployed paying VAT, then it's the State giving them €100 and them giving back €21.

Not exactly a net contributor.

markodaly · 19-07-2019 3:03pm

Boggles wrote: »

It is paid for. Go home this evening and turn on your tap if you need proof.

Paying for a utility from general taxation is Magic Money Tree economics. Its a utility, it should be treated as such.

Now TBF, you are making a classic mistake. You think if it charged for at source then magically we will get a better service.

Its how it is done in every OECD country. If you believe in Irish exceptionalism, then fair enough but that is the case.
If someone has to pay for a service, rather then it being paid for out of some big magic pot, they will, in turn, treat the utility with more respect.

Boggles · 19-07-2019 3:17pm

iguana wrote: »

I wonder how many of the 80k houses using excessive water are on a shared supply. Irish Water semi regularly contacts me to tell me I must have a leak because of excessive water usage at my house. It doesn't matter how many times I tell them that I'm not the only house using my supply, they keep forgetting and contacting me again. It's a total waste of money because they are unable to deal with a scenario that they know about but don't seem to take into account. I have no doubt that I'm being counted as one of those 80k houses, when from what I can work out, our water usage per household on the supply is actually low.

I have never know a company to give such vague figures.

It estimates that around 80,000 households around the country use more than 213,000 litres of water a year

Surely a break down of those figures would be more beneficial.

Like if 40,000 household use over 220,000 litres, that would put a completely different slant on it.

The CRU says between 7% and 10% of domestic metered households are using more than the annual allowance.

It then goes on to say that 60% of that is from leaks.

So taking their top estimate of 10%, that means 4% are going over the cap by actual usage. Of course there is no break down of the make up of that household.

So in reality, 96-98% of the country stay below the cap and they do that without threat of penalty.

So the narrative we are a bunch of wasteful fúcks doesn't add up.

Boggles · 19-07-2019 3:18pm

markodaly wrote: »

If someone has to pay for a service, rather then it being paid for out of some big magic pot, they will, in turn, treat the utility with more respect.

It isn't a magic pot, our governance has decided on how to fund it going forward.

Irish Water's own figures prove we are beyond respectful when it comes to water.

is_that_so · 19-07-2019 3:26pm

Boggles wrote: »

It then goes on to say that 60% of that is from leaks.

So taking their top estimate of 10%, that means 4% are going over the cap by actual usage. Of course there is no break down of the make up of that household.

So in reality, 96-98% of the country stay below the cap and they do that without threat of penalty.

So the narrative we are a bunch of wasteful fúcks doesn't add up.

All they have done is get approval to charge people where excess usage is determined; a fairly prudent move to have that option available anyway. There is a long lead-in planned to that charge being issued and they have not denied some of it may indeed be leaks. What they have stated is that 80K households appear to be using above the limit in some manner, leaks or otherwise and that has to be addressed.

markodaly · 19-07-2019 3:26pm

Boggles wrote: »

It isn't a magic pot, our governance has decided on how to fund it going forward.

Irish Water's own figures prove we are beyond respectful when it comes to water.

So, again you refuse to answer the question.

General taxation is one big pot. If you think funding a utility from this is a good idea, then fine but again not ONE of the other OECD countries fund water services like this and for very very good reasons.

Brendan Bendar · 19-07-2019 3:26pm

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

There are more ways to tackle issues than by ‘marching’ my friend.

What ‘austerity measures’ do you feel we’re not adequately opposed as a matter of interest?

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Noted and I'd rather not derail the thread.

Neither would I,so I’ll just leave that there.

Nothing personal but you need to big up on stuff like this.

goat2 · 19-07-2019 3:30pm

I thought we always paid for water through vehicle tax,

markodaly · 19-07-2019 3:31pm

There is no need for Carbon taxes because we pay VAT. That is the logic here from some.

Brendan Bendar · 19-07-2019 3:33pm

goat2 wrote: »

I thought we always paid for water through vehicle tax,

So if you didn’t have a vehicle, you didn’t have to pay for water?

Shuuuurely shhhomme mishhhtake:D

Boggles · 19-07-2019 3:34pm

markodaly wrote: »

If you think funding a utility from this is a good idea.

A cross party committee and our governance decided that's how it should be done.

You'll have to take it up with them Mark.

odyssey06 · 19-07-2019 3:35pm

goat2 wrote: »

I thought we always paid for water through vehicle tax,

And when you purchase a good or service that pays commercial water rates.

The Bishop Basher · 19-07-2019 3:35pm

goat2 wrote: »

I thought we always paid for water through vehicle tax,

We do.

We also pay for it through LPT.

And let's not forget they also raided the pension reserve fund to set up this quango.

odyssey06 · 19-07-2019 3:36pm

markodaly wrote: »

There is no need for Carbon taxes because we pay VAT. That is the logic here from some.

Are the carbon taxes to pay for replacements for all our fossil fuel power plants; or to reduce consumption? Or are they just a money gathering exercise.
The answer is different.

Boggles · 19-07-2019 3:37pm

is_that_so wrote: »

What they have stated is that 80K households appear to be using above the limit in some manner, leaks or otherwise and that has to be addressed.

I know what they stated, I went through it line by line in the post you quoted.

My point is this could have been framed as the good news story it is.

Ireland has up to 98% compliance of the cap.

And that without threat of penalty.

Boggles · 19-07-2019 3:41pm

goat2 wrote: »

I thought we always paid for water through vehicle tax,

I've heard that before actually, it was tacked on at some stage in the 70s.

Don't know if it is true or not.

What is true is

The semi-state body received a subvention of €439 million in 2014 and is expected to receive €399 million and €479 million in 2015 and 2016 respectively.

The committee heard that two thirds of this money came from motor tax payments.

cameramonkey · 19-07-2019 3:44pm

is_that_so wrote: »

All they have done is get approval to charge people where excess usage is determined; a fairly prudent move to have that option available anyway. There is a long lead-in planned to that charge being issued and they have not denied
some of it may indeed be leaks. What they have stated is that 80K households appear to be using above the limit in some manner, leaks or otherwise and that has to be addressed.

Why dont they address it now by contacting those householders and see what the issue is? Is it a leak in the property? Is it someone who just wastes water? Or is it a leak in IW pipes? Are these 80000 households all metered?

19-07-2019 3:47pm

Boggles wrote: »

I've heard that before actually, it was tacked on at some stage in the 70s.

Don't know if it is true or not.

What is true is

Tis true. Rates were abolished back in the 70’s by, I think FF, but could be wrong. A levy was put on road tax instead.

Tommy Kelly · 19-07-2019 3:48pm

cameramonkey wrote: »

Why dont they address it now by contacting those householders and see what the issue is? Is it a leak in the property? Is it someone who just wastes water? Or is it a leak in IW pipes? Are these 80000 households all metered?

That's what they are doing. Contractors have leak investigation surveyors visiting the properties where there is a constant flow of water being measured going through the meter on the road every day.

is_that_so · 19-07-2019 3:48pm

Boggles wrote: »

I know what they stated, I went through it line by line in the post you quoted.

My point is this could have been framed as the good news story it is.

Ireland has up to 98% compliance of the cap.

And that without threat of penalty.

Well the story only emerged in the context of their request for approval , which obviously required an explanation of the current state of affairs and process that would be used to address it. That good news is not here yet!

is_that_so · 19-07-2019 3:50pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Tis true. Rates were abolished back in the 70’s by, I think FF, but could be wrong. A levy was put on road tax instead.

It was FF and for a brief period there was no car tax either back in 1978!

Water charges for excessive usage

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