The SF3 v SF4 thread

Cunny-Funt · 18-08-2009 2:46am #1

Hi

Been meaning to start a discussion on this in its own thread for sometime. Let me start by saying I love both games. But lets just say... well, having SSF2T be the right wing and SF3:3rd strike (3s from now on) be the left... I deffo wish SFIV leaned a little bit more to the left

I look forward to the next version, if there is one or rather whatever way it may be, SF4.2 or SF5 and hope it does lean that bit more over to the left.

So lets make this thread about discussing what features like about the games and what we'd like to maybe see in the next Street Fighter. I can't see them adding gameplay changes in a patch so it'd have to be a new one.

So anyway to get the ball rolling I'll continue what I was going to go into in another thread. I was talking about the dash. I love the dash in 3s, love it. Its a shadow of its former self in SFIV and I suspect this is due to the game leaning more towards the right. Trying not to piss off the ST crowd too much.

In 3s (obviously it varies from character to character) the dash is extremely fast and fluid and has very very little recovery. You can dash at someone and do a move almost instantly. Its great for breaking those kinda...stalemate moments. You know the ones... where both of you have just countered and successfully predicted each others last few moves and are now basically just crouching and staring at each other for a few milliseconds. The all of a sudden you can dash across the screen and grab the guy before he can react, almost dashing into a grab.

You can't do that in SFIV, you just can't. I played 3s for a year leading up to SFIV's release and naturally I started playing it like 3s when I got it, dashing at the other guy will get you KO'ed in SFIV as he has the advantage. Theres far more time in between the dashing animation finishing, and you being able to do anything with your character. So your pretty open after a dash in SFIV. In 3s your not. I also miss the speed and how much ground is covered.

I touched on this in another thread and Azza replied, I'll paste it here:

Azza wrote: »

Problem with 3S for me is thats its all footsies, thanks to its parry system. There is no ranged game like there is in 2 or 4.

The focus attack system is a well thought out compromise that allows you to counter opponents while keeping the fireball game alive.

Dash isn't useless in SF IV nor does it have a delay afterwards in which you can't do anything. Used in conjunction with focus attacks to get through certain types of attacks it its a pretty cool game addition. FADC is also a nice new edition, just damage scaling needs to be looked at to make more valuable.

Not saying SF IV is flawless. I do think it too defensive slanted. Auto correction is a pain and should be removed and put down and reversals are a bit too easy, which make cross up and meaty attacks too risky. Its also probably the slowest SF in the series. But still the depth is there and there is large roster characters and balance is quite good. I think SF IV is a very good first version and given time and revisions it will match the heights of ST.

I actually agree with most of that, cept for the dash part in terms of there being no delay. There is, its always one of the 1st things I notice when changing between games.

I love the parry system although I was never good at it. However I also love the focus attack system too and I'm not that good at that either lol. Also the characters in SFIV are better. Cept there is a few from 3s I'd love to see in there too. Ibuki being the main one.

Its decently balanced too. Compared to 3s. However I really miss meaties, reversals are too damn easy in SFIV. I hate how godly jab is in SFIV, damn you balrog!!!! lol

Theres actually loads of stuff I can get into but this post is far too long. So let the discussion begin! :pac:

xp90 · 18-08-2009 2:54am

HADOKEN!

Dreddybajs · 18-08-2009 8:59am

Averaged over the cast of 3S, a forward dash takes 18 frames. In SF4, averaged over the whole cast, it takes just under 20 (19.9 unless my sums are off) - really not that big a difference in terms of the speed, and different characters go different distances with dashes obviously (shouldn't you be trying to bait a poke to kara-throw anyway? :pac:).

I think in 3S though, you're able to cancel the recovery frames of some dashes, which may explain how you feel different about 3S (I don't think you can do this in SF4 but it's almost impossible to search for considering what comes up when you search for "dash cancelling" in relation to SF4).

An important thing to remember, too, is that this is only the first interation of SF4 - consider how horrible SF3 and to a lesser extent 2nd Impact were! I'm not completely in love with SF4 (and don't really feel as if I know enough about 3S to really comment in-depth about it), but that at least is a great sign. All that said, I'm glad we got a game which to me feels an awful lot better rounded than 3S does - both in terms of balance and that the positional game goes beyond max poke range.

3rd Strike does what it does well, I don't feel like there was any reason to attempt remaking it (I'd still love to see some of the cast in SF4), especially when having more similarities to SF2 was obviously a much better commercial move.

edit: also, imo, parrying sucks and made the game far too centered around option selects for my liking, as well as completely destroying the fireball game!

Placebo · 18-08-2009 10:34am

3S popularity is definatley to do with the parry system, otherwise people would rather be playing Street fighter alpha 3 as the 3s cast was frowned upon at first.

Just the whole aspect of being able to recover from a choked match, is incredible. Which is why watching some match vids is far more appealing than sf4 matches.

SF4 reeks a bit of SF2T,

Daigo needs to stop spamming fireballs :pac::pac::pac::pac:
Im only bitter because chun is a bulky bitch in sf4

K.O.Kiki · 18-08-2009 11:13am

Things I want to see in SFIV Dash:

Air grabs. I LOVE air grabs, even if they're kind of crap most of the time, they're almost always completely unexpected. So give me air grabs (or just Abel. Why the hell does Abel not have an air grab??)
Remove the fscking "Easy Input" system -- it DOES screw up at the worst moments, and it is a pain in the ass to have to work AROUND it.
Seriously, I've messed around with it in Training mode, and sometimes 3P will get me Super, sometimes Ultra. Sometimes I'll get a QCF, other times a SRK.
Give us the "Easy Inputs" from HDRemix, so no more Tigerknee motions (hell, Sagat's TK is an SRK motion, like in EVERY OTHER DAMN GAME)
Make failed Links MORE SAFE!
If you're going to make Links frame-perfect, fine. Whatever. But having it so that you'll ALWAYS get punished by an SRK or SPD if you miss the button press is ridiculous.
ALTERNATIVELY:
Make Links easier to hit -- instead of the 1-frame timing, give us a bit more leeway -- 3 frames, 5 frames, anything which doesn't require the timing of a VF Akira Knee ON EVERY HIT.
Make taunts useful again. Might p*ss off the scrubs, but w/ever. I like taunting.
Give ALL charge characters a way of getting through fireballs -- not over, THROUGH. Pet peeve.
Remove some of Ryu's Ultra setups (again, pet peeve).

Monkeyto · 18-08-2009 11:28am

For me SF4 is a much more defensive game. I muchos prefer this over SF3's style. There also seems to be a better balance in players. Regardless of what tier lists you may have, in SBO's quarters there was 11/16 different characters used and in the semis there was 7/8 different characters used (as stated in Seth Kilian's blog).

The only changes I would make in SF4 would be to hone down some of Sagat's damage. Capcom admittd him being a little too OP so this should be reason enough suppress his Tiger rage. Mybe give him an extra frame or two down time after a Tiger Knee so he can't just instantly go into ultra after a missed tiger knee attempt.

chopperbyrne · 18-08-2009 11:40am

That's all well and good Kiki, but it doesn't really have anything to do with Third Strike vs SF IV.

I've played 3S quite a bit and although I do like the game, I prefer SF IV. Focus attacks are a welcome evolution of the parry that can't be overly abused as you lose health temporarily.

Anti-airs are next to useless in 3S as people can just empty jump and parry any anti-air that's thrown out. Considering it's the third iteration of SF III, it should be more balanced, yet SF IV is far more balanced on the first attempt. Think it's only one matchup that's worse than 7-3 (Seth 8-2 over Gief).

I do like the inputs in 3S though. They were lenient, but still required some precision. The shortcuts in IV are very annoying and hopefully the next iteration will have an option to turn them off. Multiple Supers is a bit of a novelty as most of the cast only have one useful Super or you just pick the one that will give most EX meter.

Having almost every Super as a QCF x 2 input was good though.

Both good games, but IV is better for me.

Would like to see some of the 3S characters in the next SF IV though. Alex, Necro, Urien, Oro and Dudley particularly.

bush · 18-08-2009 11:45am

I hope to god they dont put any of the freaks from 3 in 4 :pac:

Placebo · 18-08-2009 11:50am

eh excuse me, Oro and Ibuki and wonderful original characters ! Urien although slightly similar to sagat [only visually i guess] had also great moves/juggles, aegis reflector is a mind blowing super, specially when executed well [i.e on both sides !]

animaX · 18-08-2009 12:34pm

chopperbyrne wrote: »

Anti-airs are next to useless in 3S as people can just empty jump and parry any anti-air that's thrown out.

I actually love that!! It adds to the mind games.

As everyone says, it took them a while to get SFIII right. The difference between New Generation and Third Strike is huge. I doubt there'll be such a huge difference with later iterations of 4, but at least capcom have shown that they can improve things.

K.O.Kiki · 18-08-2009 1:12pm

OTOH, I could argue that the Capcom of 10 YEARS AGO showed they can balance their fighters.
Capcom now? Not so sure (and HDRemix doesn't count, as it was rebalanced by Sirlin + players)

Azza · 18-08-2009 1:22pm

There is certainly no delay after dashing in SF IV. As soon as the dash is over you can perform another move. As Drebbybajs pointed out average frames required for a dash is only 2 frames longer than SF III.

If you referring to dashing in after hitting someone then yes the defender has frame advantage.

If your talking about FADC a move then its character dependent on who has frame advantage. Chun-Li is the only character in the game who has frame advantage after FADC. Abel is neutral and M.Bison is -1. Either way frame advantage is so small either way than each play has a chance to counter whatever the other person does. You can also dash in and simply block, but you risk getting thrown of course, but then you could have attempted a throw yourself or jump up or back. The only exception to this is Zangief and his 2 frame spd or 1 frame ultra/super.

Dash is also useful for hunting down players with teleport and using focus attack dash cancels is a really good way of getting in on Dhalsim.

Dreddybajs · 18-08-2009 2:50pm

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Things I want to see in SFIV Dash:
Air grabs. I LOVE air grabs, even if they're kind of crap most of the time, they're almost always completely unexpected. So give me air grabs (or just Abel. Why the hell does Abel not have an air grab??)

Chun, Fuerte, Guile, probably others I can't remember off the top of my head have air throws already (I presume you know this but it's a weirdly worded post).

FoamyMushroom · 18-08-2009 3:23pm

When SF4 came out I hadn't a clue who was gonna be the unlock-able characters, I was hoping to what ever god there is, that Yun would be put in it!

He was one of the most picked in 3s like! Only thing that resembles Yun in SF4 is Rufus dive kick..

Only thing I dont like about SF4 is the button commands, (Down, right = fireball... NO? SRK? WTF!!? lol)

I'll always pick the parry system over the Focus one to be honest.

animaX · 18-08-2009 3:31pm

FoamyMushroom wrote: »

He was one of the most picked in 3s like!

Well, he was top tier and almost broken!! But I would have loved to see some 3s chars in there too. Maybe they just won't work in the slower paced SF4?

Dan was a wasted character, could have put someone useful in instead of him (who needs comic relief

).

Retr0gamer · 18-08-2009 3:36pm

No bad mouthing dan.

FoamyMushroom · 18-08-2009 3:55pm

I think Dan was jus throwin in there for training purpose's

Bless Dan....

Cunny-Funt · 18-08-2009 6:19pm

Indeed, I agree this is only the 1st version of SF4, while 3s was the 3rd and final version of SF3. I'm hoping the next versions lean more towards 3s as I said, however I'm not saying I want a 3D 3s

Anyway I'm telling you lads, the dashing is not the same as it is in 3s, its just not. If I have ryu and ken standing at the same distance as each other in both games, and I dash forward and grab in both games, I'll have to press grab at least 3 times before he does it in SFIV compared to 1 in 3s. Its not as fluid. Plus the opponent has more time to react. Funnily enough, most characters back dash seem faster in SFIV compared to their forward dash. This is it being more defensive compared to 3s I guess.

I'm not saying dash is useless in SFIV, I'm just saying its no where near as good as it is in 3s. I'm not talking about FADCing either.

Other differences between the games:

Double jump. Only viper has this. Personally I don't mind it not being in. But I do like it.

Universal Overheads: You press the buttons that do focus attack in SF4 in 3s your character will do the ****ty little jump and punch downwards. This was an overhead move and was pretty cool for mixing things up. Wouldnt work in SF4 but its a pity not all characters have an overhead of some sort in SF4.

You couldn't combo off of flying hard kick in 3s like you can in SF4, in fact you can combo off a lot more things in SF4 then you can is 3s.

You can interrupt taunts in SF4, you can't in 3s, in 3s you can taunt after a KO however.

I liked the EX movies in 3s better but I'm glad they're in SFIV.

I much rather how akuma was implemented in 3s. His red fireball didn't go through normal ones. Dunno why that happens in SF4 , he has an ex one for that, his normal one shouldn't...

Azza · 18-08-2009 6:47pm

I don't have any issue with getting a throw once the dash is over in SF IV. Only need to press it once. I can only imagine your doing it too early. No one else has mentioned this about SF IV.

As for back dash being faster, I just checked the data, only Sims back dash is quicker and Zangief dash's are the same speed either way. All other characters have faster forward dashs.

Xinkai · 18-08-2009 6:50pm

Indeed, I agree this is only the 1st version of SF4, while 3s was the 3rd and final version of SF3. I'm hoping the next versions lean more towards 3s as I said, however I'm not saying I want a 3D 3s

Cunny-Funt wrote: »

Anyway I'm telling you lads, the dashing is not the same as it is in 3s, its just not. If I have ryu and ken standing at the same distance as each other in both games, and I dash forward and grab in both games, I'll have to press grab at least 3 times before he does it in SFIV compared to 1 in 3s. Its not as fluid. Plus the opponent has more time to react. Funnily enough, most characters back dash seem faster in SFIV compared to their forward dash. This is it being more defensive compared to 3s I guess.

So you don't like SF4 because the dash is different in this than it was in 3s erm ok...

Cunny-Funt wrote: »

I'm not saying dash is useless in SFIV, I'm just saying its no where near as good as it is in 3s. I'm not talking about FADCing either.

If you like the dash i 3s so much 1. Write to capcom 2. stick to 3s and dash all you want.

Cunny-Funt wrote: »

Other differences between the games:

Double jump. Only viper has this. Personally I don't mind it not being in. But I do like it.

Play Viper.

Cunny-Funt wrote: »

Universal Overheads: You press the buttons that do focus attack in SF4 in 3s your character will do the ****ty little jump and punch downwards. This was an overhead move and was pretty cool for mixing things up. Wouldnt work in SF4 but its a pity not all characters have an overhead of some sort in SF4.

It's called Street Fighter 4 for a reason, it's a new game with new elements, in case you haven't noticed, you can still mix it up in SF4 using an FADC or tricking your opponent at the right time by focus stunning them.

You couldn't combo off of flying hard kick in 3s like you can in SF4, in fact you can combo off a lot more things in SF4 then you can is 3s.

Cunny-Funt wrote: »

You can interrupt taunts in SF4, you can't in 3s, in 3s you can taunt after a KO however.

So taunting is broken in sf4 now?

I liked the EX movies in 3s better but I'm glad they're in SFIV.

Cunny-Funt wrote: »

I much rather how akuma was implemented in 3s. His red fireball didn't go through normal ones. Dunno why that happens in SF4 , he has an ex one for that, his normal one shouldn't...

This i agree with, they should've made his red fireball an ex fireball, or just stopped altogether on contact. however, the downside to it is that it takes 11 frames longer to come out than his normal fireball (14 FB-25 RFB)

All in all if you have this many problems with SF4 and you prefer SF3 then i'd stick to SF3 but i'll say this unless you can play on a tournament level on SF3 then it's not worth playing anybody where as on SF4 if you take the time to learn the game properly, when to dash and impliment Focus Absorb as a parry/counter then you'll see that SF4 is obviously better than 3s.

Besides, 3s is fun, but it's complete & utter shoite and well you all know this or should anyways.

Retr0gamer · 18-08-2009 6:53pm

Cunny-Funt wrote: »

You couldn't combo off of flying hard kick in 3s like you can in SF4, in fact you can combo off a lot more things in SF4 then you can is 3s.

I much rather how akuma was implemented in 3s. His red fireball didn't go through normal ones. Dunno why that happens in SF4 , he has an ex one for that, his normal one shouldn't...

No point doing a hard jumping kick anyway since the medium kick of most shotos gives better combo timing, practically the same damage and can cross up.

As for akuma, his red fireball is pretty much useless due to the ridiculous start up time in SFIV.

Placebo · 18-08-2009 7:21pm

defo would have loved UOH
hope a new karuga [sp? guy who stunned SBO with Q/hugo, and that sean player] picks up dan and shows it off.

Cunny-Funt · 18-08-2009 8:06pm

Azza wrote: »

I can only imagine your doing it too early. No one else has mentioned this about SF IV.

If I press it with the same timing as 3s then yes it'll come out to early and I'd have to keep pressing it. In SFIV I'll dash, wait a sec then hit throw. Because you have to. In 3s you just hit it right after dashing. In fact you can dash forward dash back and dash forward again and then grab if you want and it flows so well. In sf4 its much more clunky. Its just not the same.

No one has mentioned it? Well its not some game breaking thing, you don't play SF4 the way you play SF3 they are two different games. In SF3 dashing into throws, dashing into moves are more safe, people do it more then. SFIV less safe, thus not as big a part of the game. At least thats how I see it.

Azza wrote: »

As for back dash being faster, I just checked the data, only Sims back dash is quicker and Zangief dash's are the same speed either way. All other characters have faster forward dashs.

I'm surprised by this, always seems like I cover more ground dashing back then I do dashing forward. With chun li and sagat especially.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

No point doing a hard jumping kick anyway since the medium kick of most shotos gives better combo timing, practically the same damage and can cross up.

Ah yeah I'm just pointing out differences I notice apon switching between games.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

As for akuma, his red fireball is pretty much useless due to the ridiculous start up time in SFIV.

Compared to 3s? I've not noticed much of a difference in start up time between them. I deffo wiff it more in 3s though. Another thing is in 3s you can't do a raging demon from his demon flip which you can in SF4 and is one of the main ways I land the raging demon in SFIV.

Cunny-Funt · 18-08-2009 8:11pm

Xinkai wrote: »

So you don't like SF4 because the dash is different in this than it was in 3s erm ok...

What the flying **** are you talking about? I love streetfighter 4 and I love 3s, read my mother****ing 1st post next time. :mad: I'm not bitching about SFIV here I made a thread discussing the differences of the 2 games.

Xinkai wrote: »

If you like the dash i 3s so much 1. Write to capcom 2. stick to 3s and dash all you want.

**** sake man I'm just talking about one of the differences I noticed, wtf is your problem? You don't like 3s? Don't attack me over it...

Xinkai wrote: »

Play Viper.

Yeah cheers man, nice. Because I really did talk about double jump like the lack of it in SF4 is gamebreaking for me in my last post didnt i? WTF?

Xinkai wrote: »

It's called Street Fighter 4 for a reason, it's a new game with new elements, in case you haven't noticed, you can still mix it up in SF4 using an FADC or tricking your opponent at the right time by focus stunning them.

Stop talking to me like I only bought SF4 yesterday, then went online and made a thread called "SF4 is ****e, SF3 is better, heres why:"

Xinkai wrote: »

So taunting is broken in sf4 now?

What the ****?

Xinkai wrote: »

All in all if you have this many problems with SF4

What problems?

Xinkai wrote: »

and you prefer SF3

Did I say that?

Xinkai wrote: »

unless you can play on a tournament level on SF3 then it's not worth playing anybody

WHAT? Ok so the fact that I enjoyed playing the game online on 2df etc for a year is meaningless. I should just not play it unless I'm at tourny level. What. The. ****?

Xinkai wrote: »

where as on SF4 if you take the time to learn the game properly, when to dash and impliment Focus Absorb as a parry/counter then you'll see that SF4 is obviously better than 3s.

lol.....

Xinkai wrote: »

Besides, 3s is fun, but it's complete & utter shoite and well you all know this or should anyways.

Heh if you say so.... Damn so much for a nice friendly chat about 2 games I love... feck sake..

Dreddybajs · 18-08-2009 8:50pm

Xinkai, your post comes across as pretty condescending imo! There's no need for that. And saying "play 3S then" or "play as Viper then" when he has complaints about SF4 isn't much of a helpful response either. I'm pretty sure all of the regulars on this forums have at least some small gripes with the game, and the forum was made for discussion about stuff like this!

Cunny, pretty sure Retro meant the red fireball has ridiculously long startup just compared to Akuma's normal fireball (which it does), rather than to the move in 3S - I wouldn't call it useless though, it's decent for wakeup chip and stuff at least.

I don't mind superjumps being character-unique, I think it makes that character a lot more interesting, and with how SF4 works at the moment I don't think universal superjumps would add much depth to the game really.

Cunny-Funt · 18-08-2009 9:26pm

I think if everyone had super jump it might mess up the zoning aspect of it a bit. Yeah I see what he means if he meant versus a normal one. In SFIV I generally use the red fireball for wake ups too. In 3s its has its uses due to the parry system and it stops ex fireballs (as akuma doesnt have ex moves in that)

lol speaking about the dash again (sorry lads

) but one thing I enjoyed doing in 3s was firing the red fireball at someone whoes getting a bit parry happy, and dash at them-grab them while they're busy parrying my redfireball muhahaha

Azza · 18-08-2009 9:35pm

Just checked the frame data again. When I said that in the majority of cases most characters dashes where faster when they dash forward compared to back dashing I mean't the time completed to finish the dash not the amount of distance covered in any case its the same outcome. Only Chun-Li has a dash backwards further than her dash foward, while E-Honda and Seth dashes the same distance either way. All other characters travel further dashing forward including Sagat but in some cases the distance is very small between them.

Also due to an oversight in the game Zangief has a short jump. Originally every character had one but Capcom decided to remove them all. But by accident they left Giefs one in.

I still don't believe there is a delay after dashing. Once the final frame of the dash is complete your free to do whatever you like.

K.O.Kiki · 18-08-2009 10:54pm

Last night, I got demon'd while parrying a red fireball.

Actually, i got destroyed by some French Akuma for 17 matches. He quit after a double Perfect.
*sigh*

Cunny-Funt · 19-08-2009 12:51am

Azza wrote: »

Just checked the frame data again. When I said that in the majority of cases most characters dashes where faster when they dash forward compared to back dashing I mean't the time completed to finish the dash not the amount of distance covered in any case its the same outcome. Only Chun-Li has a dash backwards further than her dash foward, while E-Honda and Seth dashes the same distance either way. All other characters travel further dashing forward including Sagat but in some cases the distance is very small between them.

I see, wow I'm surprised with Sagat. I actually rarely play him but I remember it seemed like back dash was faster.

Azza wrote: »

Also due to an oversight in the game Zangief has a short jump. Originally every character had one but Capcom decided to remove them all. But by accident they left Giefs one in.

All I can say is, :eek:

Azza wrote: »

I still don't believe there is a delay after dashing. Once the final frame of the dash is complete your free to do whatever you like.

Well somethings different, maybe its that in 3s you and throw just before the last frames of the dash, and in SFIV you have to wait till the animation is complete, I dunno, its just not the same. Or maybe I'm just insane lol

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Last night, I got demon'd while parrying a red fireball.

Actually, i got destroyed by some French Akuma for 17 matches. He quit after a double Perfect.
*sigh*

French akuma eh? "FrenchDarkside" or something like that was it? Or Blues? I swear to god 2DF will make you hate France lol all the french people on it like..go out of there way to be assholes lol.

You played 17 matchs with him, I can bet you if its one of those characters I mentioned if you beat them 2 in a row they;d have ragequit.

Dreddybajs · 19-08-2009 1:47am

Cunny, I replied already that I think it might be cancelling the recovery frames of the dash - not sure exactly if that's it but it'd make sense.

Cunny-Funt · 19-08-2009 2:04am

Yeah it sure feels like its something like that alright.

The SF3 v SF4 thread

Comments