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Requirement for an earth rod?

  • 08-11-2019 8:05pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 26,960 ✭✭✭✭


    So I have a very old house that has no earth rod and and old distribution board and fuses.

    I just had my gas boiler replaced and while they have bonded all the pipes they didnt add an earth rod (even though it was mentioned during the quote!)

    So, is an earth rod required now?

    Cheers.


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,710 ✭✭✭meercat


    GreeBo wrote: »
    So I have a very old house that has no earth rod and and old distribution board and fuses.

    I just had my gas boiler replaced and while they have bonded all the pipes they didnt add an earth rod (even though it was mentioned during the quote!)

    So, is an earth rod required now?

    Cheers.

    If they replaced your gas boiler,have they protected it with an rcd ?
    If a rec has bonded all the pipe work has he done the relevant tests and given you a certificate
    Has he issued you a notice of potential hazard if he has had the cover off your distribution board


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,960 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    meercat wrote: »
    If they replaced your gas boiler,have they protected it with an rcd ?
    If a rec has bonded all the pipe work has he done the relevant tests and given you a certificate
    Has he issued you a notice of potential hazard if he has had the cover off your distribution board

    1) No, they just wired it using the existing wiring
    2) He said he tested it but no certificates
    3) No documentation handed over at all

    So, other than complaining to the company they came from (though it seems they company pays these contractors, they are not employed by the company) is there anyone I can raise this to, someone who would inspect it from a RECI point of view and take some action?

    BTW, is an earth rod required? :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,710 ✭✭✭meercat


    An earth rod would be essential irrespective of whether or not your boiler is replaced


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,960 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    meercat wrote: »
    An earth rod would be essential irrespective of whether or not your boiler is replaced
    Yeah, but I want to know if the person installing a boiler would be required to fit one if one wasnt already in place?
    I'd obviously want one, but does he have to fit one by regulation?

    When questioned he told me I didn't need one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭Risteard81


    An Earth electrode is mandatory unless you're in the north.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Rgi wouldn't be able to fit the earth rod...
    Reci is needed there.


    Recommended get the whole lot sorted.

    New board, wiring, earth rod and bonding if necessary.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,565 ✭✭✭K.Flyer


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Yeah, but I want to know if the person installing a boiler would be required to fit one if one wasnt already in place?
    I'd obviously want one, but does he have to fit one by regulation?

    When questioned he told me I didn't need one.

    No, the person installing a Gas Boiler has nothing to do with Earth Rods.
    A Registered Gas Installer, when installing a new gas boiler, must ensure that there is cross bonding on the pipework at the boiler and an unbroken 10 sq. earth cable on the gas pipe directly to the fuse-board.
    Some RGIs will do the cross bonding, but they cannot connect an earth cable to the fuse board.
    If either cross bonding or earth cable from the gas pipe to the consumer unit are not present, then the installation does not conform to gas regulations I.S. 813 and a notice must be issued to the occupier for it to be rectified (by an electrician).


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,960 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    K.Flyer wrote: »
    No, the person installing a Gas Boiler has nothing to do with Earth Rods.
    A Registered Gas Installer, when installing a new gas boiler, must ensure that there is cross bonding on the pipework at the boiler and an unbroken 10 sq. earth cable on the gas pipe directly to the fuse-board.
    Some RGIs will do the cross bonding, but they cannot connect an earth cable to the fuse board.
    If either cross bonding or earth cable from the gas pipe to the consumer unit are not present, then the installation does not conform to gas regulations I.S. 813 and a notice must be issued to the occupier for it to be rectified (by an electrician).
    Sorry I meant the company hired to replace the boiler.
    They've sent out both rgi and reci.
    The reci connected the bonding to the board but the house has no earth rod. My question is, does the reci have to install one to make it compliant with current regulations?
    I was quoted for one and then fobbed off when I asked the reci about it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,960 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Rgi wouldn't be able to fit the earth rod...
    Reci is needed there.


    Recommended get the whole lot sorted.

    New board, wiring, earth rod and bonding if necessary.

    I have a whole other thread on that... 25k+ was the last quote.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,565 ✭✭✭K.Flyer


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Sorry I meant the company hired to replace the boiler.
    They've sent out both rgi and reci.
    The reci connected the bonding to the board but the house has no earth rod. My question is, does the reci have to install one to make it compliant with current regulations?
    I was quoted for one and then fobbed off when I asked the reci about it.


    You're not having great luck with this company are you.
    If you were quoted for one you should have gotten one.
    Same as the boiler, I would pick the Bosch any day over the Ideal.
    Did this reci sort out the daft time clock arrangement?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭Risteard81


    I don't believe my post could have been much clearer - an Earth electrode is mandatory.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,565 ✭✭✭K.Flyer


    Risteard81 wrote: »
    I don't believe my post could have been much clearer - an Earth electrode is mandatory.

    If its known that a rod is not present whould a notice for rectification normally be issued?


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    GreeBo wrote: »
    I have a whole other thread on that... 25k+ was the last quote.

    I didn't see that....

    €25k for board and re wire???


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭Risteard81


    K.Flyer wrote: »
    If its known that a rod is not present whould a notice for rectification normally be issued?

    A Notice of Potential Hazard would be a likely document to issue if the electrode wasn't installed at the time for any reason. They're not optional accessories.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,710 ✭✭✭meercat


    If a rec was present then he is responsible for the connection to the spur outlet and should have tested and certified this if requested.this test should check earth loop impedance and trip times of rcd. It would have been good practice to run a separate circuit for your boiler as he was also installing a bonding cable so it would be easy to pull both in together.

    If the rec installed and bonded the pipe work then a certificate should be issued

    If the rec had the cover off the distribution board and noticed there was no electrode present then a notice of potential hazard should be issued too.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 305 ✭✭kramer1


    Why would you run an extra circuit just for the boiler?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,710 ✭✭✭meercat


    kramer1 wrote: »
    Why would you run an extra circuit just for the boiler?

    Lots of reasons
    It’s unclear if the boiler and pumps are rcd protected atm. Op says fuses are at the consumer unit. It’s a regulation that all circulation pumps are rcd protected. By installing a new circuit and using a dedicated rcbo then the new boiler is up to standard. It also prevents customers saying that everything was ok before gas boiler was fitted should the original rcd trip in the future. If socket rcd trips in the future then the boiler will continue to function.
    It’s also unclear what condition the existing wiring is in and where the existing spur is tapped off. By installing a new circuit and testing accordingly then you would be 100% sure of the integrity of the boiler installation.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 305 ✭✭kramer1


    Informative, thanks


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,960 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    meercat wrote: »
    If a rec was present then he is responsible for the connection to the spur outlet and should have tested and certified this if requested.this test should check earth loop impedance and trip times of rcd. It would have been good practice to run a separate circuit for your boiler as he was also installing a bonding cable so it would be easy to pull both in together.

    If the rec installed and bonded the pipe work then a certificate should be issued

    If the rec had the cover off the distribution board and noticed there was no electrode present then a notice of potential hazard should be issued too.

    He says he did check the impedance loop and thats why I didnt need an earth rod...
    Zero certs for any of the work (RGI or RECI) and also no warranty on my boiler yet.
    K.Flyer wrote: »
    You're not having great luck with this company are you.
    If you were quoted for one you should have gotten one.
    Same as the boiler, I would pick the Bosch any day over the Ideal.
    Did this reci sort out the daft time clock arrangement?
    No, I'm pretty fecked off about it to be honest.
    It was an expensive enough job but I had no heat and a baby so was kinda stuck, however an expensive job where you don't even get what you were quoted is another thing entirely.
    I was going to let the Bosch Vs Ideal thing go, but now I'm just mad about the whole thing.

    He "fixed" the issue by just removing the old clock and blanking it off...so I have wire snaking into places it doesnt need to go (from DB into the kitchen and then back out to a (single pole) switch by the boiler. This then feeds the boiler with another feed from the boiler to the new timeclock. The way it was originally left, once the old timeclock kicked off the boiler was without any power, which I dont believe is good for them.
    I didn't see that....

    €25k for board and re wire???
    Yep, at least.
    Now its a large 4 bed detached, but still.
    meercat wrote: »
    Lots of reasons
    It’s unclear if the boiler and pumps are rcd protected atm. Op says fuses are at the consumer unit. It’s a regulation that all circulation pumps are rcd protected. By installing a new circuit and using a dedicated rcbo then the new boiler is up to standard. It also prevents customers saying that everything was ok before gas boiler was fitted should the original rcd trip in the future. If socket rcd trips in the future then the boiler will continue to function.
    It’s also unclear what condition the existing wiring is in and where the existing spur is tapped off. By installing a new circuit and testing accordingly then you would be 100% sure of the integrity of the boiler installation.

    Yeah, I would have expected new wiring and protection from the DB to the boiler. There is about 3M between the board and the boiler, so its not like it was going to take much effort, I also would have expected a RCD/RCBO and an earth rod, for now I have some bonding on the water/gas lines at the boiler (that I had to fix as one of the earths fell out when touched :rolleyes:) and a new earth into the board but thats it. So if one of my 50 year old ceramic fuses blows I guess I have no heat.

    Thankfully I haven't paid them in full yet, but tbh I was stupid and only have a couple of hundred out of the €5K (:() left.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,960 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Edit, it really makes you fear for how many people are being ripped off day in and day out in this country.
    I'm "lucky" in that I have some clue as to whats right/wrong (obv not up to speed on the regs in either case) but most people will happily just pay over the cash when the heat comes back.

    This isnt a small company either...or at least I didnt think it was...


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  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,514 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Apologies for coming to this thread so late.
    GreeBo wrote: »
    He says he did check the impedance loop and thats why I didnt need an earth rod...

    The rules dictate that you need an earth rod, end of. So no matter what test is carried out (including earth fault loop impedance) an earth rod is required.

    As other posters have pointed out RGI are not permitted to work on the distribution board.

    Unfortunately the quality of REC’s and RGI vary considerably.

    I would not expect an RGI to look for an earth rod. Earth fault loop impedance tests can pass by a country mile even if there is no earth rod.

    Many RECs still struggle with understanding the principles of testing. They just go through the motions. This is despite the fact that the ECSSA run most of the mandatory verification & testing courses.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭Risteard81


    The electrode is likely to have an infinitesimal effect on loop impedance in a TN-C-S system. This isn't its' purpose. It is there to provide an extra Earth reference to the DSO's PEN conductor and reduce the potential between the MET and true Earth.

    As @2011 points out it is always required. This is fundamental stuff.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,514 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    +1

    As Risteard says this is fundamental stuff.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,960 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Thanks for replies lads?

    So am I correct in saying that to meet regs I should have an earth rod and a RCBO on a separate circuit to the boiler/pump along with certificates for both gas and electrics?

    Anything else I should be demanding?

    Also anyone that I should bother reporting this to?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭Risteard81


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Thanks for replies lads?

    So am I correct in saying that to meet regs I should have an earth rod and a RCBO on a separate circuit to the boiler/pump along with certificates for both gas and electrics?

    Anything else I should be demanding?

    Also anyone that I should bother reporting this to?

    The heating system will require 30mA RCD protection, but it is not required to be a dedicated RCD (e.g. RCBO).

    Your first course of action should be to bring it up with the REC and see whether he will sort this. If not then the logical next step would be to contact RECI.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 182 ✭✭Twister2


    Once you start dealing with a new main bond on an old installation

    The surely you're required to check neutralising,
    main bonding of other metallic services and earthrod.

    You can't do one in isolation safely on an old dwelling


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,960 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Risteard81 wrote: »
    The heating system will require 30mA RCD protection, but it is not required to be a dedicated RCD (e.g. RCBO).

    Your first course of action should be to bring it up with the REC and see whether he will sort this. If not then the logical next step would be to contact RECI.

    Hey, the company is coming back saying that I dont need an RCD/RCBO.

    "All Gas boiler installs, upgrades and earth bonding works do not require an RCD/RCBO BREAKER ,once boiler is wired in with a 3amp spur connection works meets RGII regulations."

    What about RECI regulations?

    They also say my existing wiring was checked and meets regulations, but I'm fairly positive it will all have an undersized earth since its at least 14 years old?

    Presume regulations would be to run new wiring in this scenario? (its an exposed run of about 3m , I really dont get why they wouldnt just do it as a matter of course!)


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,960 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    They have also come back and said that
    "RGII cert covers all works carried out gas and electrical." so I wont be getting any RECI cert, which sounds like bollix to me, why was there an electrician & a plumber if I'm only getting a RGI cert?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,710 ✭✭✭meercat


    555.3.1 a circuit supplying a water heating appliance shall be protected by an rcd having a residual operating current not exceeding 30mA

    You’ve already stated a rec was out bonding the pipe work.

    Did he also connect the boiler
    He should have performed the tests as far as the spur outlet and certified as such
    If he found issues in the installation then he should have issued a notice of potential hazard


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  • Registered Users Posts: 26,960 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    meercat wrote: »
    555.3.1 a circuit supplying a water heating appliance shall be protected by an rcd having a residual operating current not exceeding 30mA

    You’ve already stated a rec was out bonding the pipe work.

    Did he also connect the boiler
    He should have performed the tests as far as the spur outlet and certified as such
    If he found issues in the installation then he should have issued a notice of potential hazard

    Cheers, great to get a regulation number.

    He connected the new boiler to the existing fused spur (which in turn connects to the DB via a 30 amp ceramic fuse)

    Can you share a rule regarding required earth size for the wiring?
    Cheers


This discussion has been closed.
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