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Imagine giving birth to this monster..

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    #62
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    mariaalice wrote: »
    Where exactly are these woolly headed lefties? posters here are always talking about them, but has anyone ever met one or come across one who tells a violent psychotic individual that it all the fault of society for the way they behave.

    A man knocked a cyclist off his bike and killed him while racing another car along a very busy thoroughfare in Dublin after a day's drinking at the beach.
    The driver and other occupants of the car ran away to avoid capture while the cyclist, a father grandfather and husband lay dying on the road
    The drivers legal team (paid for by the taxpayers) told the judge that the driver had had a difficult upbringing in Fatima Mansions and must be treated sympathetically.
    So the judge agreed and gave him a nice short sentence because he doesn't really deserve to be punished.
    Do you read the papers at all?


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    #63
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    what if one of your close loved ones was born with a complex disorder such as one i mentioned earlier and what if they end up committing a serious crime such as murder? what should be done?

    I'd be building the scaffold then wouldn't I ?


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    #64
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    what if one of your close loved ones was born with a complex disorder such as one i mentioned earlier and what if they end up committing a serious crime such as murder? what should be done?

    They should be locked up away from decent society where they can't hurt anyone else because their "complex disorder " is obviously not being managed.
    BTW, while we're "empathising" if someone with a "complex disorder" beats your grandad to death with a poker how will you feel?


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    #65
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,805 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    infogiver wrote: »
    They should be locked up away from decent society where they can't hurt anyone else because their "complex disorder " is obviously not being managed.
    BTW, while we're "empathising" if someone with a "complex disorder" beats your grandad to death with a poker how will you feel?

    unfortunately all my grandparents are dead but of course id be angry. i actually know some criminals, some have served time and some are currently and sadly serving time again, some for fairly serious crimes. i would highly recommend having conversations with such people, and you may realise the complexity of their issues.

    rehabilitation is extremely important, as a failure could very well mean reoffense of the same or more serious crimes. unfortunately ive been informed by a retired professional from the criminal justice system, that some are non rehabilitative, which is not good not just for the offender but for society as a whole. these people are extremely dangerous for all of society.

    your failing to realise, im actually more concerned for the victims of crimes and the potential victims of crimes, which means we must firstly understand the mind of the criminal! we cannot monitor all members of society all the time, so if we understand the mind of the criminal, we may just prevent the crimes being committed in the first place.


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    #66
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    infogiver wrote: »
    A man knocked a cyclist off his bike and killed him while racing another car along a very busy thoroughfare in Dublin after a day's drinking at the beach.
    The driver and other occupants of the car ran away to avoid capture while the cyclist, a father grandfather and husband lay dying on the road
    The drivers legal team (paid for by the taxpayers) told the judge that the driver had had a difficult upbringing in Fatima Mansions and must be treated sympathetically.
    So the judge agreed and gave him a nice short sentence because he doesn't really deserve to be punished.
    Do you read the papers at all?

    I am not disagreeing with you as such but lawyers in general aren't woolly headed liberals you have also implied that from the get go the criminal's are surrounded by a coterie who tell them nothing is their fault its all society's fault.


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    #67
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users Posts: 30,185 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    I know a man and he'd always have had the attitude lock them up for good, hang them, shot them, beat them etc. When one of his best friends son committed a serious crime he went out of his way to try and get them off so people I often find have double standards when their actually in the position.


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    #68
    red ears
    Closed Accounts Posts: 945 ✭✭✭red ears


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    and what would that achieve?

    30 years where old people are safe from him.


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    #69
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,805 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    red ears wrote: »
    30 years where old people are safe from him.

    if that person is not rehabilitated, it will be more or less a waste of time and money


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    #70
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    unfortunately all my grandparents are dead but of course id be angry. i actually know some criminals, some have served time and some are currently and sadly serving time again, some for fairly serious crimes. i would highly recommend having conversations with such people, and you may realise the complexity of their issues.

    rehabilitation is extremely important, as a failure could very well mean reoffense of the same or more serious crimes. unfortunately ive been informed by a retired professional from the criminal justice system, that some are non rehabilitative, which is not good not just for the offender but for society as a whole. these people are extremely dangerous for all of society.

    your failing to realise, im actually more concerned for the victims of crimes and the potential victims of crimes, which means we must firstly understand the mind of the criminal! we cannot monitor all members of society all the time, so if we understand the mind of the criminal, we may just prevent the crimes being committed in the first place.

    I'm glad you'd be "angry" wanderer.
    I think I'd better disengage from you as I think you've a poor grasp of reality and there's no point in any further debate.
    "Angry".


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    #71
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,805 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    infogiver wrote: »
    I'm glad you'd be "sad" wanderer.
    I think I'd better disengage from you as I think you've a poor grasp of reality and there's no point in any further debate.
    Sad.

    have you professional and personal experience in this field, as id be interested in hearing your opinions? an old school friend is a physiatrist working in the judicial system, unfortunately ive lost contact with him. id really like to catch up with him to gain further knowledge. im trying to understand at least by talking to those that have experience in these fields so id be very grateful for your opinions. thank you


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    #72
    red ears
    Closed Accounts Posts: 945 ✭✭✭red ears


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    have you professional and personal experience in this field, as id be interested in hearing your opinions? an old school friend is a physiatrist working in the judicial system, unfortunately ive lost contact with him. id really like to catch up with him to gain further knowledge. im trying to understand at least by talking to those that have experience in these fields so id be very grateful for your opinions. thank you

    Our justice system is far too soft so i wouldn't automatically have respect for a psychiatrist working in the system. Between these psychiatrists and lenient judges there are scumbags out on the streets who really should be behind bars.


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    #73
    BorneTobyWilde
    Registered Users Posts: 35,631 ✭✭✭✭BorneTobyWilde


    Only in Ireland and Uk do you have such kids. Can you imagine that in Poland, no !

    We have a so called ''Army'' maybe they should be put to use with kids like this.
    Compulsory National Service if you break the law as a teen.


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    #74
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,805 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    red ears wrote: »
    Our justice system is far too soft so i wouldn't automatically have respect for a psychiatrist working in the system. Between these psychiatrists and lenient judges there are scumbags out on the streets who really should be behind bars.

    our rehabilitation rates are currently roughly 40%, thats a sign of a failing system, i.e. a failure to rehabilitate. some believe, including me, more lenient sentences will have little or no effect on this figure.


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    #75
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,805 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    BorneTobyWilde wrote: »
    Only in Ireland and Uk do you have such kids. Can you imagine that in Poland, no !

    We have a so called ''Army'' maybe they should be put to use with kids like this.
    Compulsory National Service if you break the law as a teen.

    i would imagine these kind of kids exist everywhere, military service or no military service. i do agree with those that military service dehumanises people which can cause even more complex social issues and further exacerbate others.


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    #76
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    i would imagine these kind of kids exist everywhere, military service or no military service. i do agree with those that military service dehumanises people which can cause even more complex social issues and further exacerbate others.

    Not really military service that dehumanises people that occurs when the army is exposed to a warzone or has to perform particularly heinous acts. The army itself does not harm serving officers.


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    #77
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,805 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    KingBrian2 wrote: »
    Not really military service that dehumanises people that occurs when the army is exposed to a warzone or has to perform particularly heinous acts. The army itself does not harm serving officers.

    i beg to differ, i know people that have done army training, and have witnessed their behaviour change negatively because of their experiences which did not include active duty. even though military training does have some positive effects for some possibly most, id rather see public money used in other ways


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    #78
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    i beg to differ, i know people that have done army training, and have witnessed their behaviour change negatively because of their experiences which did not include active duty. even though military training does have some positive effects for some possibly most, id rather see public money used in other ways

    We have Gardaí on the streets that perform a similar duty they don't strike me as mental cases. They have good reason to be seeing the crazy **** that is carried on in this country.


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    #79
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,805 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    KingBrian2 wrote: »
    We have Gardaí on the streets that perform a similar duty they don't strike me as mental cases. They have good reason to be seeing the crazy **** that is carried on in this country.

    good point alright, gardai do have a very difficult job alright, dealing with very complex people everyday. id say it drives them nuts, a day in your local courthouse is very telling of the issues they have to deal with on a regular basis. id say theres a lot of 'stress leave' in that occupation.


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    #80
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users Posts: 16,272 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    a person who is deeply disturbed and requires professional help immediately

    He requires to be locked up for the next 30 years but he won't be of course.

    In your bleeding heart world you just and bring yourself to believe some people are just bad minded scum who prey on easy targets like a 90 year old man.

    Bet he wouldn't take on a well built 6 footer who could fight back.


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    #81
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    me_irl wrote: »
    I think there's a lot more to this story than just victimising the mother. We don't know what she did (or didn't do regarding steering him away from trouble) to him in his formative years to cause this outburst of aggression.

    Both are the victims and both need help.
    It doesn't matter what you do, you don't deserve to be kicked in the head and beaten so bad you fear for your life. He's not a child he was a teenager, 17 years old beating a woman. You don't get to be out of your mind on drugs and then blame the ****king victim for her being assaulted. If he's old enough to be snorting that **** he's old enough to face the consequences of his actions. If there's mental problems at play and he chose not to take prescription meds made available to him instead choosing to self medicate then he needs to deal with the fall out. I have absolutely no sympathy. As far as I'm concerned his own actions and bad choices brought this on. He wouldn't do it to a stranger inthe street so clearly knew it was wrong, but assumed it was fine to assault the mother. It's pretty black and white as far as I'm concerned. It's not "complex" nor do we need to know more about the mother to ascertain whether she deserved it or not. It's "poor you, it's not your fault you poor troubled child" attitudes that have people acting like this, the feeling like the world owes them a favour. Well guess what, life is not fair. We all get dealt ****ty hands at times.


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    #82
    red ears
    Closed Accounts Posts: 945 ✭✭✭red ears


    Arcade_Tryer wrote: »
    We all fight with family from time to time.

    I'm sure they'll look back on this and laugh about it some day.

    I missed this post first time round :eek:

    Yeah i'm sure they will be looking back in 20 years time saying do remember the time you used to kick me in the head repeatedly.. great times.. great times...


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    #83
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    She didn't give birth to a monster.

    She gave birth to an innocent child(*), who she then proceeded to turn into a monster thru f*ced up parenting. She's getting what raised, nothing more and nothing less.


    (*) There's a possibility that the child may have been drug-addicted before being born - but again, that's her fault.

    This has to be the most ill informed post I've ever seen on Boards.

    An absolutely disgusting view that a person deserves to be kicked in the face and body.

    Unless you know this woman personally you have no idea how she raised her child. There are plenty of examples of pyschopaths who had a perfectly "normal" upbringing.

    I'm really enraged by this attitude.


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    #84
    red ears
    Closed Accounts Posts: 945 ✭✭✭red ears


    pilly wrote: »
    This has to be the most ill informed post I've ever seen on Boards.

    An absolutely disgusting view that a person deserves to be kicked in the face and body.

    Unless you know this woman personally you have no idea how she raised her child. There are plenty of examples of pyschopaths who had a perfectly "normal" upbringing.

    I'm really enraged by this attitude.

    Its an example of how some people will bend over backwards to excuse a criminal.


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    #85
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,000 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    pilly wrote: »
    This has to be the most ill informed post I've ever seen on Boards.

    An absolutely disgusting view that a person deserves to be kicked in the face and body.

    Unless you know this woman personally you have no idea how she raised her child. There are plenty of examples of pyschopaths who had a perfectly "normal" upbringing.

    I'm really enraged by this attitude.
    Nobody deserves to be kicked like that, I completely agree. Absolutely.

    And I don't know if what I'm about to say is true for this case here either, and don't want to judge them without knowing a lot more than I do.

    But there is a serious point about parenting generally: I know someone personally (and I'm sure we all do) who had a hyper protective attitude to her kids all through their childhood - when anything happened it was always the other kids, and later the teachers, who were in the wrong in some way or other. She was constantly complaining about teachers picking on her son, I used to be biting my tongue. Until some time in mid to late adolescence when he got bigger than her, and suddenly she was actually afraid of him.

    Now there's another point here too, which is that the father wasn't around and when he was he didn't help things, so she did bring him up on her own. It wasn't easy for her, and I don't mean to "blame" her, or not her alone. But I can tell you it was entirely predictable that he wasn't going to stay her little blue eyed boy forever, and her inability to see that her role as a mother was to teach him as well as protect him was a mistake. And a mistake that a lot of parents, especially mothers, IMO, make.

    (I'll probably get slated for this, but hey.)


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    #86
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    volchitsa wrote: »
    Nobody deserves to be kicked like that, I completely agree. Absolutely.

    And I don't know if what I'm about to say is true for this case here either, and don't want to judge them without knowing a lot more than I do.

    But there is a serious point about parenting generally: I know someone personally (and I'm sure we all do) who had a hyper protective attitude to her kids all through their childhood - when anything happened it was always the other kids, and later the teachers, who were in the wrong in some way or other. She was constantly complaining about teachers picking on her son, I used to be biting my tongue. Until some time in mid to late adolescence when he got bigger than her, and suddenly she was actually afraid of him.

    Now there's another point here too, which is that the father wasn't around and when he was he didn't help things, so she did bring him up on her own. It wasn't easy for her, and I don't mean to "blame" her, or not her alone. But I can tell you it was entirely predictable that he wasn't going to stay her little blue eyed boy forever, and her inability to see that her role as a mother was to teach him as well as protect him was a mistake. And a mistake that a lot of parents, especially mothers, IMO, make.

    (I'll probably get slated for this, but hey.)

    No, that's a perfectly reasoned discussion of the issue. I'm not denying that people make mistakes parenting. Look, there's no training for being a parent and I've yet to meet the perfect one but I do know that no woman deserves to be kicked in the face by what is effectively a man, not a child regardless of how she brought him up.

    To suggest that bad parenting is an excuse for such behaviour is intolerable. I had a horrendous upbringing and I couldn't kick a rabid dog let alone a human being.

    There comes a point in life where you have to take responsibility for your own actions and stop blaming others.


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    #87
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    volchitsa wrote: »
    Nobody deserves to be kicked like that, I completely agree. Absolutely.

    And I don't know if what I'm about to say is true for this case here either, and don't want to judge them without knowing a lot more than I do.

    But there is a serious point about parenting generally: I know someone personally (and I'm sure we all do) who had a hyper protective attitude to her kids all through their childhood - when anything happened it was always the other kids, and later the teachers, who were in the wrong in some way or other. She was constantly complaining about teachers picking on her son, I used to be biting my tongue. Until some time in mid to late adolescence when he got bigger than her, and suddenly she was actually afraid of him.

    Now there's another point here too, which is that the father wasn't around and when he was he didn't help things, so she did bring him up on her own. It wasn't easy for her, and I don't mean to "blame" her, or not her alone. But I can tell you it was entirely predictable that he wasn't going to stay her little blue eyed boy forever, and her inability to see that her role as a mother was to teach him as well as protect him was a mistake. And a mistake that a lot of parents, especially mothers, IMO, make.

    (I'll probably get slated for this, but hey.)

    I'm certainly not going to slate you. Having had a daughter go all the way through the school system I could give you dozens of examples of mothers (in particular) literally camped outside the school so they can be ready to go in to "defend " their little darling.
    Any criticism of their child is a critiscm of them and they don't do critiscm very well at all.
    Roll on a few years and they are ejecting these same paragons of virtue from the family home because they can't "manage" them.
    I personally know of a woman who has had to put her daughters boyfriend (both in LC) on her own sofa since his mother threw him out on Christmas night.
    She had little choice since the daughter threatened to set up home with him if he wasn't let in.


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    #88
    Katgurl
    Registered Users Posts: 2,142 ✭✭✭Katgurl


    Jesus that poor woman. Being kicked in head by anyone is awful, being kicked by someone who is supposed to love you even worse (i'm speaking from first hand experience but at least i was able to walk away), but your own CHILD? Unfathomable pain.


    I know this isn't an interesting, popular or insightful point but drugs ruin people (also speaking from first hand experience and thankfully managed to walk away).


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    #89
    Cupcake_Crisis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,448 ✭✭✭✭Cupcake_Crisis


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    She didn't give birth to a monster.

    She gave birth to an innocent child(*), who she then proceeded to turn into a monster thru f*ced up parenting. She's getting what raised, nothing more and nothing less.


    (*) There's a possibility that the child may have been drug-addicted before being born - but again, that's her fault.

    I don't buy this nature vs nurture line of thinking.

    Both my brother and myself had the best of everything growing up, and we're extremely loved.

    I'm now living a normal adult life and he's an alcoholic who's addicted to prescription medication and neglects his daughter.

    How did my parents get what they raised?


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