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2019 Diamond League
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In fairness I doubt anyone in their right mind would defend Salazar or NOP0
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Join Date:Posts: 7156
In fairness I doubt anyone in their right mind would defend Salazar or NOP
Just to be clear, I wasn't. But I'm so sceptical about pretty much everything in every sport that I've almost come full circle now, and I just accept what I see at face value for now until I have a specific reason to believe otherwise. I mean, obviously we can't ignore what we see with the likes of Ayana, Genzebe Dibaba and Chepkoech, but for now I just enjoy what I'm watching and... hope for the best? :pac:
I do wish the authorities would go after the Ethiopians now though. They've done a good job with the Kenyans but there's a lot more to be done I'm sure.0 -
yerwanthere123 wrote: »If Jakob stuck a little bit closer to the leaders and not gave himself so much ground to make up wouldn't he stand a better chance? He always seems to want to catch them on the home straight but I think he's good enough to stay with the leaders throughout. Idk, maybe I'm wrong.
It's a very fine line and while I don't think anyone recommends negative-splitting a 1500m race, Jakob has shown himself to be an incredibly astute racer. Given that he's more of a 5,000m/1,500m runner, he's probably running the best race he can. When you're watching the ebb-and-flow of the race, it's hard to see just how good his pacing is.
If he had gone out with Cheruiyot, I think he would have ended up with Tefera (who finished 4 seconds behind him) and Souleiman (who finished 3.5 seconds behind). Tefera was still in 2nd place at 1,100m and Souleiman 3rd. At 800, Tefera was 0.8s and Souleiman was 1s ahead of Jakob and Cheruiyot was 1.2s ahead. So, Cheruiyot actually extended his lead over Jakob in the 2nd half while the others went backwards fast. The only split where Jakob was obviously closing was from 1300m - 1400m but Cheruiyot's final 100m was actually faster (13.5 to Jakob's 13.7). It's just that everyone else dying created a bit of an optical illusion.
Souleiman has a 1:42 800m to his name (and a sub 3:30 1500m) and Tefera is the WR holder at 1500m indoor so it's understandable they tried mixing it with Cheruiyot.
However, ALL that being said, I think Jakob will break 3:30 in the next couple of years and at some point, he's going to have see what happens when he goes out faster than 1:53 for 800m (which he did in Lausanne as well).0 -
OOnegative wrote: »Hassan had never beaten Obiri in her life until last night and then completely obliterates her. Great training going on in NOP clearly!!!
I have no time for Salazar at all. For me, the story (which he confirmed) that he tested a testosterone gel on his sons to determine how much would trigger a positive test tells me that he is someone who doesn't care about the spirit of competition. So, as with Sky in cycling, once you're prepared to go into those murky areas and make rule lawyering a focus, I'm not that interested whether it's legal or not.
HOWEVER, whether she signed up to the NOP or not, Hassan is a special athlete, and always has been.
She has been one of the best 1500m runners in the world for a few years and, if anything, she's only now making the type of progress you might have expected when she was breaking through (bronze in the WC 1500m behind Dibaba and Kipyegon in 2015, WC gold indoor in 2016). I understand her training was not particularly structured in the early part of her career and she took up running relatively late. If anyone remembers her early races, she used to get herself into a lot of trouble by hanging out around the back and leaves herself with too much to do (she almost missed the break in Brussels too). So, given these caveats, her accomplishments pre-NOP were pretty astounding.
Given her 800m speed, I would have thought that any structured attempt to plug the holes in her endurance was always going to pay off at the longer distances. Her progress and performances look credible to me right now.
Having said ALL that, she could - of course - be doped up to the gills. But so could the person finishing 8th in Heat One.0 -
OOnegative wrote: »Your clearly a smart person, you know. I’ve zero time for Salazar, he’ll be found out soon enough like Armstrong. I know a certain poster here if there reading will rip me to bits for my opinion but hey, we’ll see who’s correct in years to come. Cheers for the input on the DL over the season btw, kept us all informed.
I had actually left but your passive aggressive remark caught my attention, but I promise This will be my last post on here you will be happy to know. I just want to clear the air and give you a more descriptive explanation for my tone. Firstly, I wasn't trying to rip you apart in that post, I have an extreme passion for this sport and as I write posts like that: my annoyance gets the better of me; It's not directed at you; it's my annoyance at the problems within the sport that comes out. you also severly misunderstood my post
Secondly, I merely pointed a factual flaw in the mile time argument used against Hassan in that Mile race.
First off on NOP, I said I had more faith in NOP than most groups because of all the first hand evidence out there, This does not mean I know they are squeaky clean(there are shades of grey in the World). It means that when I look around and see the Dibaba's who were in the hotel in Saddabel when Spanish police raided their rooms and found pharmacueticul quantities of EPO and Syringes and when Kenya only has OOC testing since 2017 and the likes of Ethiophia has none, that Star sprinters in Jamacia were going up to 6 months without being tested, when whole countries have systematic doping programs in place, I have more far more faith in NOP than most groups. I would bet my life on NOP not using EPO because of what I read first hand. i.e They were using food supplement L-carnitine to boost blood. At the very least, NOP were ethically corrupt and maybe anti-doping too but the are definitely operating in the grey zone. Have you read the USADA investigation into NOP? because if you haven't and I mean no offense by this, you have no insider first hand info to base your opinions on other than belief and a performance. that is not evidence, when a cop has a case; they don't refuse to read the crime reports and hear witness or informant testimony and put everything on a hunch of bulletpoints from any old source.
Take this quote from Vern Gambetta(Former S&C coach of NOP)In track and field, cycling and swimming, I feel there is no gray area in terms of what's fair and ethical. It's black or white; you're a druggie or you're not. It's as simple as that. Some people are in a dark gray area. Say 50 is the threshold for illegality: They're going to do everything in their means to be at 49.999. They're always trying to find something new to give their athletes an edge. They called it innovation; I called it cheating. Flirting on the edge, looking for gimmicks—I have no tolerance for people who operate that way. Certainly sound nutrition and things like that are valid, but to put all your time and energy into looking for ways to artificially boost blood or in some way get an edge—I call that stupid coaching. Put your attention into areas where you know you'll get results rather than chasing voodoo science. Sure, it takes longer. It's as simple as this—do the basics really, really well. Then, as an athlete advances, build complexity into their program, more training and more specific to the athlete and his event. It takes time, there are no shortcuts. To build an elite athlete is both simple and complex because it's got to be very individual. Things like nutritional drinks are useful supplements, but that's different from trying to find fringe methods. If I can go buy it in the store, that's not a problem to me. If I can't, that's a problem
Or Kara Goucher who was chief whistleblower to USADA in the NOP investigation. Kara spent 7 years with NOP(World Championship silver medallist 10000m 2007), In those 7 years, Kara only seen one bottle of cytomel(thyroid drug which was legal but is definitely morally questionable). I don't like NOP or what they are doing and questions should be asked but I know they are no Russias or Dibabas. They still deserve everything that comes to them if they are doping and possibly they could be.
That's that out of the way and onto the real point of my post that you are passively referencing. NOP are not the major problem, the whole system is corrupt and complicit. I made a post on Letsrun about this months ago that some might remember as it got some traction(mostly criticism of me:D, it's under the nick NOPOGEN if anyone wants to check it out). NOP are not alone in this Dr. Brown Fiasco, as I said; The USATF and US Olympic committee are involved and were referring athletes to Dr. Brown for Thyroid treatment; The USATF had him hired as a shadow lecturer and have since admitted that. There's an old detective saying "follow the money" and the money leads to Nike, Nike bought the USATF in 2014, owns and funds all the major training groups and even controls athletes with different brand sponsors through ownership of the USATF. Theres a great article out there if anyone wants to read it "Did Nike just buy running".
The USATF and USOC was sending athletes to Dr. Brown, Terrence Mahon, Salazar, Jerry Schumacher and Mark Wetmore too and these are just who we know thanks to the USADA report. Wetmore actually introduced the Gouchers to Dr. Brown who in turn introduced him to Salazar. The issue is then at the start of NOP(then known as OTC). Salazar and co-coach Schumacher were going to Dr. Brown with their athletes for Thyroid meds and vitamin infussions. Schumacher is now head coach of BTC with the likes of Emma Coburn, Evan Jager and Shelby Houlihan who are all very vocal anti-doping but there's a clear issue with this. Jerry Schumacher is noticeably absent from the USADA report despite being joint head coach with Salazr during visits to Dr. Brown. That can only mean one thing: he refused to talk to them. At worst; he was involved and is tightlipped on anything that happened at NOP or at best; omerta is alive and well in NikeTown and Jerry can't talk because Nike funds his group and has the USATF by the balls.
Half the US team was seeing Dr. Brown and have got away scot free while everyone is hinging on NOP, Nike runs the show. The athletes are pawns, the coaches are bishops, The USATF and USOC are rooks and Nike is the queen. Cutting Salazar's head off doesn't solve anything, another head will grow back under Nike funding like it always has like NOP replacing drug riddled athletics west( good letsrun thread on that "you can run but you can't hide Malmo"). On the thread I posted on Letsrun, Rojo said he'd interview all the people I mentioned on this thread from Wetmore to Schumacher to USATF as they all flew under the radar of the NOP train but he hasn't asked them yet and I've emailed him many times about it too but as he said, his belief is Schumacher, USATF, Mahon and Wetmore et all weren't at anything nefarious despite their links and absolutely no one asking them the questions or investigating.
My problem isn't with NOP getting scrutinised, I just want consistency across the board raised on factual information from people who know, not believe. I think all their houses should be ransacked because either a lot of people are complicit and reinforcing omerta or the US has had a semi-systematic doping program in place abusing TUE's in my opinion.
I wasn't attacking you and I hope you understand my frustration is based on a huge elephant in the room that hasn't been addressed and no one is listening to despite all the factual evidence for suspicion. It's something I've been pushing to people who have the clout to make a difference and been getting stonewalled for months and actually trying to make a difference despite my insignificance.
So apoligies if I offended you, adios!!0 -
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Fusitivity wrote: »I had actually left but your passive aggressive remark caught my attention, but I promise This will be my last post on here you will be happy to know. I just want to clear the air and give you a more descriptive explanation for my tone. Firstly, I wasn't trying to rip you apart in that post, I have an extreme passion for this sport and as I write posts like that: my annoyance gets the better of me; It's not directed at you; it's my annoyance at the problems within the sport that comes out. you also severly misunderstood my post
Secondly, I merely pointed a factual flaw in the mile time argument used against Hassan in that Mile race.
First off on NOP, I said I had more faith in NOP than most groups because of all the first hand evidence out there, This does not mean I know they are squeaky clean(there are shades of grey in the World). It means that when I look around and see the Dibaba's who were in the hotel in Saddabel when Spanish police raided their rooms and found pharmacueticul quantities of EPO and Syringes and when Kenya only has OOC testing since 2017 and the likes of Ethiophia has none, that Star sprinters in Jamacia were going up to 6 months without being tested, when whole countries have systematic doping programs in place, I have more far more faith in NOP than most groups. I would bet my life on NOP not using EPO because of what I read first hand. i.e They were using food supplement L-carnitine to boost blood. At the very least, NOP were ethically corrupt and maybe anti-doping too but the are definitely operating in the grey zone. Have you read the USADA investigation into NOP? because if you haven't and I mean no offense by this, you have no insider first hand info to base your opinions on other than belief and a performance. that is not evidence, when a cop has a case; they don't refuse to read the crime reports and hear witness or informant testimony and put everything on a hunch of bulletpoints from any old source.
Take this quote from Vern Gambetta(Former S&C coach of NOP)
Or Kara Goucher who was chief whistleblower to USADA in the NOP investigation. Kara spent 7 years with NOP(World Championship silver medallist 10000m 2007), In those 7 years, Kara only seen one bottle of cytomel(thyroid drug which was legal but is definitely morally questionable). I don't like NOP or what they are doing and questions should be asked but I know they are no Russias or Dibabas. They still deserve everything that comes to them if they are doping and possibly they could be.
That's that out of the way and onto the real point of my post that you are passively referencing. NOP are not the major problem, the whole system is corrupt and complicit. I made a post on Letsrun about this months ago that some might remember as it got some traction(mostly criticism of me:D, it's under the nick NOPOGEN if anyone wants to check it out). NOP are not alone in this Dr. Brown Fiasco, as I said; The USATF and US Olympic committee are involved and were referring athletes to Dr. Brown for Thyroid treatment; The USATF had him hired as a shadow lecturer and have since admitted that. There's an old detective saying "follow the money" and the money leads to Nike, Nike bought the USATF in 2014, owns and funds all the major training groups and even controls athletes with different brand sponsors through ownership of the USATF. Theres a great article out there if anyone wants to read it "Did Nike just buy running".
The USATF and USOC was sending athletes to Dr. Brown, Terrence Mahon, Salazar, Jerry Schumacher and Mark Wetmore too and these are just who we know thanks to the USADA report. Wetmore actually introduced the Gouchers to Dr. Brown who in turn introduced him to Salazar. The issue is then at the start of NOP(then known as OTC). Salazar and co-coach Schumacher were going to Dr. Brown with their athletes for Thyroid meds and vitamin infussions. Schumacher is now head coach of BTC with the likes of Emma Coburn, Evan Jager and Shelby Houlihan who are all very vocal anti-doping but there's a clear issue with this. Jerry Schumacher is noticeably absent from the USADA report despite being joint head coach with Salazr during visits to Dr. Brown. That can only mean one thing: he refused to talk to them. At worst; he was involved and is tightlipped on anything that happened at NOP or at best; omerta is alive and well in NikeTown and Jerry can't talk because Nike funds his group and has the USATF by the balls.
Half the US team was seeing Dr. Brown and have got away scot free while everyone is hinging on NOP, Nike runs the show. The athletes are pawns, the coaches are bishops, The USATF and USOC are rooks and Nike is the queen. Cutting Salazar's head off doesn't solve anything, another head will grow back under Nike funding like it always has like NOP replacing drug riddled athletics west( good letsrun thread on that "you can run but you can't hide Malmo"). On the thread I posted on Letsrun, Rojo said he'd interview all the people I mentioned on this thread from Wetmore to Schumacher to USATF as they all flew under the radar of the NOP train but he hasn't asked them yet and I've emailed him many times about it too but as he said, his belief is Schumacher, USATF, Mahon and Wetmore et all weren't at anything nefarious despite their links and absolutely no one asking them the questions or investigating.
My problem isn't with NOP getting scrutinised, I just want consistency across the board raised on factual information from people who know, not believe. I think all their houses should be ransacked because either a lot of people are complicit and reinforcing omerta or the US has had a semi-systematic doping program in place abusing TUE's in my opinion.
I wasn't attacking you and I hope you understand my frustration is based on a huge elephant in the room that hasn't been addressed and no one is listening to despite all the factual evidence for suspicion. It's something I've been pushing to people who have the clout to make a difference and been getting stonewalled for months and actually trying to make a difference despite my insignificance.
So apoligies if I offended you, adios!!
Didn’t offend me in the slightest, you know me better than that. Granted I have zero facts to say NOP are operating illegally it’s just a feeling I have about them, call it an old cop hunch if you will. I wasn’t having a pop at you either, merely enticing you into a reply which are always will informed and very interesting to read. Take care E.0 -
Hassan's progression is not suspect.
Whether NOP are doping or not, I don't know. Whether they are operating in grey areas or not, I don't know.
But it annoys me the way people seem to think Hassan is making ridiculous improvements. She was one of the world's absolute best over the course of a few years. She ran 3:56.0 trying to chase Dibaba and dying badly in last 400. She had awful race tactics too and would needlessly hang at the back and miss decisive mid race breaks.
Personally I'm disappointed she joined NOP because I've always really liked her as an athlete and KNEW once she joined them, doping accusations would start flying around, even if she's doing everything 100% clean there. You can't blame people I guess given Farah's ridiculous improvements. Hassan was on a far higher level joining though. Also I don't believe Kara Goucher juiced and she was in that group for years.
I guess just keep an open mind both ways. Hassan does have a very believable progression.
Doesn't make her clean.
But being in NOP doesn't make her dirty either.0 -
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OOnegative wrote: »Didn’t offend me in the slightest, you know me better than that. Granted I have zero facts to say NOP are operating illegally it’s just a feeling I have about them, call it an old cop hunch if you will. I wasn’t having a pop at you either, merely enticing you into a reply which are always will informed and very interesting to read. Take care E.
https://www.runnersworld.com/news/amp29312870/alberto-salazar-doping-ban/
Not to say i’m happy I was someway correct but that old cop hunch proved correct.0 -
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So here's some changes to the Diamond League that literally nobody asked for. 200m, Steeple Chase, TJ, Discus and Hammer have all been cut but will still be ran at a select few events, though not at the finals. 5,000m has also been cut and the live broadcast cut from 2 hours to 90 minutes.0 -
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yerwanthere123 wrote: »So here's some changes to the Diamond League that literally nobody asked for. 200m, Steeple Chase, TJ, Discus and Hammer have all been cut but will still be ran at a select few events, though not at the finals. 5,000m has also been cut and the live broadcast cut from 2 hours to 90 minutes.
Utter stupidity
They have gotten rid of events where 4 of the 11 Nominees for Male Athlete of the year compete
Why would you alienate some of your most marketable athletes?0 -
Join Date:Posts: 7156
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yerwanthere123 wrote: »Emma Coburn not happy at all, said on Instagram she won't be promoting the IAAF any more.
Not surprised it undermines her ability to get sponsorship.
Athletes can't wear sponsors brand in Olympics/Worlds/Europeans (ala the Nick Symmonds case)
They now also can't compete in these events during TV window
Realistically the ROI for sponsors of athletes in these events is hugely diminished.
Would be akin to certain clubs having to play their Champions League matches behind closed doors just because UEFA arbitrarily decided they weren't popular leagues.0 -
OOnegative wrote: »https://www.runnersworld.com/news/amp29312870/alberto-salazar-doping-ban/
Not to say i’m happy I was someway correct but that old cop hunch proved correct.
Bumping this to add a little extra, so did my hunch on this btw only it's UKA and not the USATF yet...Fusitivity wrote: »I had actually left but your passive aggressive remark caught my attention, but I promise This will be my last post on here you will be happy to know. I just want to clear the air and give you a more descriptive explanation for my tone. Firstly, I wasn't trying to rip you apart in that post, I have an extreme passion for this sport and as I write posts like that: my annoyance gets the better of me; It's not directed at you; it's my annoyance at the problems within the sport that comes out. you also severly misunderstood my post
Secondly, I merely pointed a factual flaw in the mile time argument used against Hassan in that Mile race.
First off on NOP, I said I had more faith in NOP than most groups because of all the first hand evidence out there, This does not mean I know they are squeaky clean(there are shades of grey in the World). It means that when I look around and see the Dibaba's who were in the hotel in Saddabel when Spanish police raided their rooms and found pharmacueticul quantities of EPO and Syringes and when Kenya only has OOC testing since 2017 and the likes of Ethiophia has none, that Star sprinters in Jamacia were going up to 6 months without being tested, when whole countries have systematic doping programs in place, I have more far more faith in NOP than most groups. I would bet my life on NOP not using EPO because of what I read first hand. i.e They were using food supplement L-carnitine to boost blood. At the very least, NOP were ethically corrupt and maybe anti-doping too but the are definitely operating in the grey zone. Have you read the USADA investigation into NOP? because if you haven't and I mean no offense by this, you have no insider first hand info to base your opinions on other than belief and a performance. that is not evidence, when a cop has a case; they don't refuse to read the crime reports and hear witness or informant testimony and put everything on a hunch of bulletpoints from any old source.
Take this quote from Vern Gambetta(Former S&C coach of NOP)
Or Kara Goucher who was chief whistleblower to USADA in the NOP investigation. Kara spent 7 years with NOP(World Championship silver medallist 10000m 2007), In those 7 years, Kara only seen one bottle of cytomel(thyroid drug which was legal but is definitely morally questionable). I don't like NOP or what they are doing and questions should be asked but I know they are no Russias or Dibabas. They still deserve everything that comes to them if they are doping and possibly they could be.
That's that out of the way and onto the real point of my post that you are passively referencing. NOP are not the major problem, the whole system is corrupt and complicit. I made a post on Letsrun about this months ago that some might remember as it got some traction(mostly criticism of me:D, it's under the nick NOPOGEN if anyone wants to check it out). NOP are not alone in this Dr. Brown Fiasco, as I said; The USATF and US Olympic committee are involved and were referring athletes to Dr. Brown for Thyroid treatment; The USATF had him hired as a shadow lecturer and have since admitted that. There's an old detective saying "follow the money" and the money leads to Nike, Nike bought the USATF in 2014, owns and funds all the major training groups and even controls athletes with different brand sponsors through ownership of the USATF. Theres a great article out there if anyone wants to read it "Did Nike just buy running".
The USATF and USOC was sending athletes to Dr. Brown, Terrence Mahon, Salazar, Jerry Schumacher and Mark Wetmore too and these are just who we know thanks to the USADA report. Wetmore actually introduced the Gouchers to Dr. Brown who in turn introduced him to Salazar. The issue is then at the start of NOP(then known as OTC). Salazar and co-coach Schumacher were going to Dr. Brown with their athletes for Thyroid meds and vitamin infussions. Schumacher is now head coach of BTC with the likes of Emma Coburn, Evan Jager and Shelby Houlihan who are all very vocal anti-doping but there's a clear issue with this. Jerry Schumacher is noticeably absent from the USADA report despite being joint head coach with Salazr during visits to Dr. Brown. That can only mean one thing: he refused to talk to them. At worst; he was involved and is tightlipped on anything that happened at NOP or at best; omerta is alive and well in NikeTown and Jerry can't talk because Nike funds his group and has the USATF by the balls.
Half the US team was seeing Dr. Brown and have got away scot free while everyone is hinging on NOP, Nike runs the show. The athletes are pawns, the coaches are bishops, The USATF and USOC are rooks and Nike is the queen. Cutting Salazar's head off doesn't solve anything, another head will grow back under Nike funding like it always has like NOP replacing drug riddled athletics west( good letsrun thread on that "you can run but you can't hide Malmo"). On the thread I posted on Letsrun, Rojo said he'd interview all the people I mentioned on this thread from Wetmore to Schumacher to USATF as they all flew under the radar of the NOP train but he hasn't asked them yet and I've emailed him many times about it too but as he said, his belief is Schumacher, USATF, Mahon and Wetmore et all weren't at anything nefarious despite their links and absolutely no one asking them the questions or investigating.
My problem isn't with NOP getting scrutinised, I just want consistency across the board raised on factual information from people who know, not believe. I think all their houses should be ransacked because either a lot of people are complicit and reinforcing omerta or the US has had a semi-systematic doping program in place abusing TUE's in my opinion.
I wasn't attacking you and I hope you understand my frustration is based on a huge elephant in the room that hasn't been addressed and no one is listening to despite all the factual evidence for suspicion. It's something I've been pushing to people who have the clout to make a difference and been getting stonewalled for months and actually trying to make a difference despite my insignificance.
So apoligies if I offended you, adios!!
And wanted to add that Rojo finally did get around to one of his promises to me in finally interviewing Mark Wetmore about Dr. Brown briefly, here it is:
https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/11/mark-wetmore-shares-his-thoughts-on-alberto-salazar-mary-cain-and-dr-jeffrey-brown/
hopefully, now with the UKA stuff flooding out with stuff, people can see that I wasn't been an ass, the problem was/is much larger than NOP and I bet if people start asking questions about the USATF who had Dr. Brown on the payroll, things will get a lot bigger, yet they continue to fly under the radar in the middle of all this again. And Jerry Schumacher too0 -
Any idea if the Monaco meeting will be broadcast live on tv in our neck of the woods? I don't think Eurosport have the rights anymore and the BBC are showing highlights on Saturday.
Cheers0 -
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