Public Consultation on a Micro-generation Support Scheme (MSS) in Ireland

championc wrote: »

They already know the size of people's systems, from the NC6 Form, which is tied to your MPRN

My NC6 stated a 4.8kw system, it now a 6.2kw and thats not on any NC6 form.

KCross wrote: »

I'd agree. Realistically the export meter (smart or otherwise) is the only measure they can reliably use. Anything inside the premise will be wide open to abuse. Eirgrid wont go there.

There's only 3 ways I can see it being enforceable

1. Installations over 6kWp (I think that's the limit???) are required to go to 3 phase to allow more export power. There'll probably be an assessment when applying for export to determine of your grid connection can handle the peak power. Presumably Eirgrid would need to be informed then of any expansions to your PV array
2. The export meter has a built in limiter to prevent more power from being exported
3. Eirgrid monitor the output of the smart meter closely, they can update every 30 mins so they could flag any premises that are exporting more than the limit quite quickly

cruisey1987 wrote: »

There's only 3 ways I can see it being enforceable

1. Installations over 6kWp (I think that's the limit???) are required to go to 3 phase to allow more export power. There'll probably be an assessment when applying for export to determine of your grid connection can handle the peak power. Presumably Eirgrid would need to be informed then of any expansions to your PV array
2. The export meter has a built in limiter to prevent more power from being exported
3. Eirgrid monitor the output of the smart meter closely, they can update every 30 mins so they could flag any premises that are exporting more than the limit quite quickly

Why would higher than 6kW export require three phase? You can import 15kW on single phase, why not export?

How would a meter "limit" the power? It has to go somewhere, and I doubt it could just be dissipated. It would require communication with individual inverters to scale down the array.

mp3guy wrote: »

My point is that it was implied you had to go to three phase for some technical reason as opposed to the ESB's arbitrary 6kW rule, which seems like it may change after this consulation is over. You can for example, export more than 6kW if you go the more awkward route that doesn't involve the "express" NC6 form that suits most for microgeneration - https://www.esbnetworks.ie/new-connections/generator-connections/connect-a-renewable-embedded-generator. The ESB has numerous generators connected on the LV network in the tens of kW.

I agree the 6kW rule doesn't make sense and I'll be saying as much in my response to the consultation. Nevertheless, the ESB make the rules and we have to abide by them


I looked at the details for the higher power generator and you need to provide numerous design documents and certificates, which will probably need an electrical engineer to provide. There's also a non-refundable a connection fee deposit of around €2k if I recall . I doubt you'll make enough on export to pay for the cost of the connection

mp3guy wrote: »

My point is that it was implied you had to go to three phase for some technical reason as opposed to the ESB's arbitrary 6kW rule, which seems like it may change after this consulation is over.

I dont think its that arbitrary. Going over 6kW means they have to do an assessment to see if there is any infrastructure work required to support it based on other micro-generators on the same line etc.

e.g. if you opened it up that every house could get 11kW you could on a sunny day overload local infrastructure if several houses were dumping to the grid at the same time... the 6kW "express" option is there for a reason.

The consultation paper says that "everyone" could install 3kW PV today and the grid would be fine and in lots of cases it could take 6kW without upgrades being required but beyond that they would have to do infrastructure upgrades or at least assess your particular location.

I dont think they'll change these requirements particularly since the document makes several references to self-consumption being the focus.

KCross wrote: »

I dont think its that arbitrary. Going over 6kW means they have to do an assessment to see if there is any infrastructure work required to support it based on other micro-generators on the same line etc.

e.g. if you opened it up that every house could get 11kW you could on a sunny day overload local infrastructure if several houses were dumping to the grid at the same time... the 6kW "express" option is there for a reason.

The consultation paper says that "everyone" could install 3kW PV today and the grid would be fine and in lots of cases it could take 6kW without upgrades being required but beyond that they would have to do infrastructure upgrades or at least assess your particular location.

I dont think they'll change these requirements particularly since the document makes several references to self-consumption being the focus.

It's showing a pretty severe lack of ambition though, indicates the ESB is unwilling to do any work to make the grid able to handle more microgeneration

mp3guy wrote: »

Right, yes. The impression I have is that it's first come first served when it comes to that capacity, which you can view here https://www.esbnetworks.ie/new-connections/generator-connections/network-capacity-map.

So, if you want to be able to do something unusual and export more than standard amounts, better nab any available capacity before your neighbours get PV.

The consultation clearly says that everyone should have access to the scheme so I doubt they will refuse your application because your neighbors have availed of it already. If there are upgrades required the consumer wont have to directly pay for those upgrades but if you ask for a larger array than they decide you will probably have to pay a shortfall.

It would work the same as your incoming grid connection. We are all entitled to a grid connection and the regulator sets the price for a connection upto 16kVA... if you want more than that you pay extra for the privilege. They will likely do the same here for any upgrades related to export.

cruisey1987 wrote: »

It's showing a pretty severe lack of ambition though, indicates the ESB is unwilling to do any work to make the grid able to handle more microgeneration

The document says that they have done a study and everyone could install 3kWp today and the grid would be fine as is so I dont see an issue unless your plan is to install a large array (>10kWp).

For sure they are not in favour of promoting micro-generation in general but the 6kW limit isnt really a manifestation of that. If you want a larger array you can have it and you pay for the infrastructure upgrades accordingly.... in the very same way you can have a 20-30kVA grid connection into your house as well if you like but you pay the fees accordingly.


I think we need to understand also that the proposed FiT is not free to the taxpayer. It is a subsidy that other taxpayers will have to pay for. So, opening it up to allow unfettered access and have people putting in huge arrays just to make money off other taxpayers isnt reasonable.... we dont need another "ash for cash" scheme like they have in the North.

Its easy to say, i'm generating electricity and giving it to Eirgrid for free.... but its not as simple as that. The big generators still have to be on standby and paid for when the clouds roll over and you stop exporting.... hence why its a subsidy that is being socialised.

unkel wrote: »

Do you not think those statements contradict each other?

So if every household could export 3kW that means that on the day the FIT comes in, the grid would be fine if a quarter of all households overnight have a 11kwp install. Which of course is not going to happen, the uptake of micro generation will be very, very gradual (would take years for even that level of 3kW per household - we might never get that far) and the ESB will monitor this and over time they can adjust the grid to allow for a lot more micro generation than we have today.

Other countries in the EU are years ahead of us and they didn't seem to have massive problems...

I think they did mention they can support larger export with a smaller uptake, which is the more likely scenario

KCross wrote: »

Which is better... 3 houses with 10kWp arrays or 10 houses with 3kWp arrays!

10 houses with 10kwp arrays

My point is if they are saying that if every house in the land would export 3kW, that's fine. So what's the problem here? It would take many years before we reach that level even if anyone so inclined would start installing 10kwp arrays from tomorrow

I think this consultation has just added more confusion to the mix.

So today, the grid could take, on average, 3kWp export from every house. So, what does that mean? What does it mean for existing 6kW installs, future installs > 3kW. Waiting lists? Payment for infrastructure upgrades if your neighbour got in there first? A cap on all installs to 3kWp unless you pay even if there is capacity?

mp3guy wrote: »

I think this consultation has just added more confusion to the mix.

It has certainly raised additional questions because they havent clearly laid out how it will be implemented but I suppose thats the whole point of a consultation... to get feedback.

mp3guy wrote: »

So today, the grid could take, on average, 3kWp export from every house. So, what does that mean?

It means that no grid upgrades would be required to support anyone installing 3kWp of Solar on their roof.

mp3guy wrote: »

What does it mean for existing 6kW installs, future installs > 3kW.

Existing installs will continue as is.... likewise for future installs but they are suggesting that the FiT be capped somehow. I still cant see how they will do that.

mp3guy wrote: »

Payment for infrastructure upgrades if your neighbour got in there first? A cap on all installs to 3kWp unless you pay even if there is capacity?

That would be for the CRU to decide but I doubt they'd do that as long as you stay within the 6kWp thats there already today.

unkel wrote: »

I haven't thought this through, but what makes you think the taxpayer is paying for this? Is it not just basically your utility provider that buys from you at the same rate as they buy from their wholesale suppliers? So they pay you 5c and sell it onto your neighbour for 15c

Not exactly, the taxpayer (via a proposed increased PSO levy) is on the hook for 10s of millions.

Its all in the docs but basically there are two proposed payments....

CEG... a minimum fixed guaranteed payment per kWh provided to you for your excess, based off the average annual Day-ahead market price. I dont remember there being a cost to the tax payer for this payment. It is from your provider as you have detailed above. The provider is expected to manage this payment themselves ensuring they dont lose their shirt on it by adjusting their retail rates as they see fit to protect themselves from market price fluctuations.

CEP... a premium payment on top of the CEG which is proposed to be funded by a PSO levy increase which is being paid to close what they call the "viability gap" (the difference between paying for the system to the value you get out of it). The payment is for 15 years and phased out then as its expected that install costs will drop to make up the shortfall. Your provider will give you this CEP payment also but they claim it back off the regulator via the PSO levy.

unkel wrote: »

WTF? What imbecile / communist came up of that stupid idea? Just pay the wholesale rate of the moment. Not guaranteed. Whatever it is. Be it 1c, 5c or 20c. Or even nothing in 10 years time from now and hopefully every single roof in Ireland is plastered with PV

Zero cost to the tax payer. And a lot less work to do for the government to bring our emissions down and reduce our fines. Or in other words a saving to the tax payer

The assessment is that you wouldn’t have an ROI then which means you won’t have the wide scale uptake we need and hence we miss our target and presumably fines ensue.

Bear in mind that this proposal could be replacing the grant.

Calahonda52 wrote: »

This will only feed back into the price of panels going up, so no benefit to Joe and Mary Domestic.
This proposed system, like all the grant schemes here are fundamentally skewed to benefit the supplier of the hardware.

It’s not a grant scheme though. We already have a grant scheme with inflated prices as you suggest. Hopefully they ditch that.