Prostitution

CoolGuy2006 · 07-05-2006 9:20pm

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Why can a guy not go to an up class place that he knows that people were not forced to work at?
Do you agree that these places are ok.
I totally agree that it is not ok to go to a lot of places.

Yes, I know well of the problems in the industry and most industries.
If your point is that there is a problem with the industry and men should be careful. I agree. It's pretty obvious.

i totally agree with everything you have said there. ( i still dont like the idea, but thats just me personally, i wouldnt have started a thread about this kinda thing)

Faith · 07-05-2006 9:28pm

CoolGuy2006 wrote:

I dont want to be The moral superhero.

See, I think you do. Your signature alone suggests this. "Winners don't do drugs". So we can safely assume that you are against drugs. You are also against prostitution and porn. I'd put money on you being a non-smoker. But that's beside the point. I think maybe you should think about being a bit less judgemental. Fine, some women are forced into the sex trade and yes, that's horrible. But most choose to do it themselves, it's their decision and has nothing to do with you.

CoolGuy2006 wrote:

I live by my Morals too, I am not really aware of any specific problems with any of the products i buy in the supermarket

Any meat that's not labelled "organic" or "free range" comes from a battery farm where the animals are treated appallingly. They are forced to live in tiny cages and feed hormones to speed up their growth.

Nestlé are doing all sorts of terrible things in Africa, like telling mothers that Nestlés special milk formula is better than breastmilk and they should use that.

Coffee that's not labelled "Fairtrade" comes from a giant corporation where the farmers get paid less than a pittance. Picking coffee is one of the hardest things to do.

Nike use child labour.

That's just a few of the things that are morally objectionable in your supermarket. By buying any of these products, you're fuelling the trade in the same way men paying for sex are fuelling the prostitution trade. The difference is, with prostitution, most of the women working in the trade are there by choice.

pisslips · 07-05-2006 9:30pm

I'm actually going on a "Lad's" trip to the Dam in june and have been debating this exact topic with myself for a few weeks.I came to the conclusion that even a Utopian society would degrade into different social classes and people would still be used the same way as a man uses an OX(heheh;) ).
So my only problem is the sti danger and that I'd feel too guilty to perform(hahaha), well mostly the STIs.

CoolGuy2006 · 07-05-2006 9:34pm

Faith wrote:

See, I think you do. Your signature alone suggests this. "Winners don't do drugs". So we can safely assume that you are against drugs. You are also against prostitution and porn. .

My signature is a joke actually. I can assure you im a 24hr party animal :-)

This isnt just something i read then feel i can complain about. All my friends do this, it has affected our friendship. I had to Hold my mates hand when he went to get a aids test and hug him when he got the all clear. This is a big thing for me, im not just some moany C*nt

Im am not against normal prostitution under the best circumstances, In theory who am i to judge people, I dont like the idea but i wont make abig deal out of it. Please try and see the angle i am concerned about.

Porn, i used to look at it, now i dont, i didnt want to make a big deal out of it, someone else brought it up. I do look at dirty movies that my Girlfriend makes for me :-) I love these movies, the idea of Porn does not really offend me, AT ALL

I have tried to express my views clearly. Obviously i havent. Oh yeah, i dont smoke :-)

You dont know any of the products i use

I can tell you that i eat free range eggs, Dont have any clothing by Nike, I only know 1 product that nestle make (Kit Kats) and i dont eat any chocolate. Oh yeah, i have never even tasted coffee. I would say 100% of the food i eat comes from Ireland. The clothes i buy are made in the states.

Faith · 07-05-2006 9:43pm

CoolGuy2006 wrote:

You dont know any of the products i use

Nor do I presume to. I was simply making a list of some of the more common offenders.

DOLEMAN · 08-05-2006 12:06am

CoolGuy2006 wrote:

Its legal in Germany and Holland but still thousands of women are still trafficked there.

Where are you getting these facts from?

If you're talking about "touring escorts", that has nothing to do with human trafficing. It's about "going where the money is". Most high class prostitutes are also touring escorts. (Again, I know lots of prostitutes and have a mild interest in the sex industry.)

The fact that you think porn is wrong too makes me come to this conclusion: you are a prude and you have guilt issues with sex. How can the naked body or sex possibly be wrong?

Weird.

DOLEMAN · 08-05-2006 12:09am

pisslips wrote:

So my only problem is the sti danger and that I'd feel too guilty to perform(hahaha), well mostly the STIs.

Prostitutes in Holland use condoms every time, whereas the drunken Irish girl on a Saturday night does not.

/just making an observation

Madge · 08-05-2006 12:50am

Faith wrote:

The difference is, with prostitution, most of the women working in the trade are there by choice.

If women didn't need to do prostitution they wouldn't. I doubt they are in it for the fun of it :rolleyes: they are forced to do it because they have no money and need money to live. Simple as. I mean, who the hell would want a total stranger, they absolutely know nothing about, probably do not even find attractive, take control of you and use your body as he sees fit. How could the prostitute actually enjoy this?
The OP is dead on and is the only 1 with a bit of sense.

coffee_cake · 08-05-2006 12:51am

Madge wrote:

If women didn't need to do prostitution they wouldn't. I doubt they are in it for the fun of it :rolleyes: they are forced to do it because they have no money and need money to live. Simple as. I mean, who the hell would want a total stranger, they absolutely know nothing about, probably do not even find attractive, take control of you and use your body as he sees fit. How could the prostitute actually enjoy this?
The OP is dead on and is the only 1 with a bit of sense.

So the person who said they know people who do it by choice must be lying?
Come on, you've never heard of casual sex?
Some women are ok with it. It's not for everyone, but then not all professions are for everyone.

Nevyn · 08-05-2006 1:02am

Madge wrote:

If women didn't need to do prostitution they wouldn't. I doubt they are in it for the fun of it :rolleyes: they are forced to do it because they have no money and need money to live.

yes that can be the ecomnoics of it but there are other jobs there are options.

Madge wrote:

Simple as. I mean, who the hell would want a total stranger, they absolutely know nothing about, probably do not even find attractive, take control of you and use your body as he sees fit. How could the prostitute actually enjoy this?

You would be surpirsed what people enjoy but really want on earth makes you think that the men are in control ?
do you think that women are not in control at any time during sex ?

Madge · 08-05-2006 1:06am

bluewolf wrote:

So the person who said they know people who do it by choice must be lying?
Come on, you've never heard of casual sex?
Some women are ok with it. It's not for everyone, but then not all professions are for everyone.

Maybe there are some women out there who like all and sundry having a go at them. Perhaps it makes them feel wanted :rolleyes:
I would rate casual sex as different to prostitution. The woman would at least have some relevant and significant thoughts about the partner in that scenario. I suppose the key difference is they would actually want to do it with that person. :rolleyes:

Madge · 08-05-2006 1:09am

Thaedydal wrote:

You would be surpirsed what people enjoy but really want on earth makes you think that the men are in control ?

Well for starters, He (the client) is paying for it.

Therefore he usually tells the prostitute what he wants...

Thaedydal wrote:

do you think that women are not in control at any time during sex ?

In a safe caring loving relationship, of course they are, otherwise in prostitution they are not.

Nevyn · 08-05-2006 1:14am

Madge wrote:

Well for starters, He (the client) is paying for it. Therefore he usually tells the prostitute what he wants...

and s/he had the right to say no, it is a matter of negotiation.

Madge wrote:

In a safe caring loving relationship, of course they are, otherwise in prostitution they are not.

pff sex with out love or emotion as it were is about power,
hell sex even in a loving relationsship can be about power.
Power and control.

The biggest flaws with prostution is that women don't run the collectives themsleves making it an empowering profession.

CoolGuy2006 · 08-05-2006 1:43am

DOLEMAN wrote:

Where are you getting these facts from?

If you're talking about "touring escorts", that has nothing to do with human trafficing. It's about "going where the money is". Most high class prostitutes are also touring escorts. (Again, I know lots of prostitutes and have a mild interest in the sex industry.)

The fact that you think porn is wrong too makes me come to this conclusion: you are a prude and you have guilt issues with sex. How can the naked body or sex possibly be wrong?

Weird.

Firstly, i have already posted a piece from IOL. I am not going to post it again, you can go back through the pages to read it again. I have told you exactly who i am talking about already. Dont join this thread unless you have the time to read it.

You keep repeating the same nonsense, telling me you have friends in the buisness, SO WHAT. I know there are people happy doing this work, i have repeated this a few times already. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THESE PEOPLE.

Secondly, with regards porn. Somebody asked me a question and i answered it. I said i used to look at porn but now i dont, whats the problem, does this make you uncomfortable. How am i a prude, I love sex, i have a great sex life. I never said the naked body or sex is wrong, where are you getting this crap from?.

I am not some religious nut running around saying Burn the prostitutes(the complete opposite). I am saying that men who go to Amsterdam and Germany are fuelling the trafficking of women. What is so hard to understand. These women are being trafficked because there is a demand. Trafficked women are being used by men every night. Im not talking about your happy friends who love their job in the industry.

I just dont know how a man going to the DAM or Germany can tell the difference between a girl who is there of her own free will and a trafficked girl. The facts are there, read the piece i posted and stop telling me about your happy friends, Im not talking about them

It seems to me that for me to be normal in your eyes i have to accept prostitution and porn. There is good and bad parts to all things in life, because with the sex industry the two can come very close together i dont feel comfortable with them.

CoolGuy2006 · 08-05-2006 1:54am

Taken from http://www.catwinternational.org

TRAFFICKING
"Increased trafficking of women for prostitution is akin to slavery... women are bought and sold like cattle." (Anita Gradin, European Commissioner, European Race Audit Bulletin No 25, The Institute of Race Relations, London UK, 25 November 1997)

Approximately 500,000 women are annually trafficked into Western Europe. (International Organization for Migration, Michael Specter, "Traffickers’ New Cargo: Naive Slavic Women," New York Times, 11 January 1998)

Of 155 cases of trafficked women: 44 were from Central Europe, mainly the Czech Republic and Poland; 64 from Eastern Europe and the CIS, mainly Russia and the Ukraine; and 47 from developing countries, mainly Morocco, Thailand and the Dominican Republic. 3/4 of the women were under 25, and many were teenagers, between 15 and 18, especially among those from Central Europe. (Data by STV: Dutch NGO of women assisted by them in 1994, "Trafficking of Women to the European Union: Characterisitics, Trends and Policy Issues," European Conference on Trafficking in Women, (June 1996), IOM, 7 May 1996)

In several European Union Member States, prostitution has become increasingly dominated by foreign women. In many areas within the European Union the number of migrant prostitutes is higher than the number of local prostitutes (Brussa, 1995, p.7). ("Trafficking of Women to the European Union: Characteristic, Trends and Policy Issues," European Conference on Trafficking in Women, (June 1996), IOM, 7 May 1996)

The slave trade in women for sexual purposes is growing, and organized crime is more often behind this trade. Smuggling in humans is much less risky than smuggling drugs and it is highly profitable. (Commissioner Anita Gradin, "Conference on Trafficking in Women" European Commission, 10-11 June 1996)

Women from Africa (Ghana, Nigeria, Morocco), Latin America (Brazil, Colombia, the Dominican Republic), South East Asia (the Philippines, Thailand), and Central and Eastern Europe (Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Romania, Russia, Ukraine) are the largest groups of women being trafficked into the European Union. (Europe national data, "Trafficking of Women to the European Union: Characterisitics, Trends and Policy Issues," European Conference on Trafficking in Women, (June 1996), IOM, 7 May 1996)

Methods and Techniques of Traffickers

Trafficking has become increasingly territorial. Criminal groups from Russia control the markets for trafficked women and girls in Poland and Germany. Criminal Ukrainian groups reportedly control Hungary and Austria. The Italian market is controlled mainly by Russian and Albanian groups. In the Netherlands, there are reports of growing control by Eastern European trafficking gangs in every red light district. (Altink, 1995, p.131). The severity of violence, including murder, has also increased along with territorial behavior. In 1995, 5 Ukrainian women and their employer were found "hacked to pieces" in a suburb of Frankfurt in what police speculate was a dispute between rival trafficking networks. ("Trafficking of Women to the European Union: Characterisitics, Trends and Policy Issues," European Conference on Trafficking in Women, (June 1996), IOM, 7 May 1996)

Organized international trafficking networks and small trafficking rings specializing in smuggling women out of one single country are the two types of operations in trafficking of women into Europe. (International Orgainsation for Migration. European Race Audit Bulletin No. 25, The Institute of Race Relations, London UK, 25 November 1997)

The traffickers typically use children who are trafficked with their mothers for blackmail purposes. (Caritas, European Race Audit Bulletin No. 25, The Institute of Race Relations, London UK, 25 November 1997)

"Legal fronts to disguise traffic into the European Union include: entertainers, cabaret artists, au-pair girls, students, applicants for political refugee status, adoptions, marriages etc." (Michele Hirsch, "Plan of Action Against Trafficking in Women and Forced Prostitution," pp.13 & 14, Council of Europe, 1996)

Three types of traffickers have been classified:

In border regions occasional traffickers provide internal or international transportation. They are usually owners of taxis, small boats or trucks that can carry individuals or small groups from a drop-off point on the coast, across a narrow strait, or over a poorly secured border. This type is not organized in any sophisticated or ongoing way;

Small, well-organized trafficking rings often specialize in trafficking nationals out of one specific country, consistently using similar routing consistently;

Organized, international trafficking networks are most sophisticated, consequently most dangerous and difficult to combat. These networks have access to fraudulent and/or authentic, usually stolen, documents or the capability to produce falsified documents themselves. They can change routing and means of transportation when a traditional route is blocked. Members are present worldwide. Lodging and logistical support are at their disposal in countries of transit and destination. ("Trafficking of Women to the European Union: Characteristics, Trends and Policy Issues," European Conference on Trafficking in Women, (June 1996), IOM, 7 May 1996)

Three types of traffick networks have been classified:

The large scale network is based on a structure of international contacts at different political and economic levels in the countries of origin and destination. These use a variety of recruiting methods. This type of network often uses transit countries.

The medium scale network is distinct because it does not sell women to other groups. It keeps the women under its control and prostitutes them its own clubs and brothels.

The small scale network works approximately as follows: a club owner in a destination country needs some new women for his club. Through contacts with people in the prostitution business abroad, he places an order. Contacts recruit the women, accompany them to the destination and deliver her. ("Trafficking of Women to the European Union: Characterisitics, Trends and Policy Issues," European Conference on Trafficking in Women, (June 1996), IOM, 7 May 1996)

It is easier and less expensive to bring trafficked women from the Central and Eastern European Countries to the European Union than to recruit women from developing countries. The Central and Eastern European Countries are so close to the European Union’s borders, that the traffickers can easily afford to replace women with new trafficked women. ("Trafficking of Women to the European Union: Characterisitics, Trends and Policy Issues," European Conference on Trafficking in Women, (June 1996), IOM, 7 May 1996)

Women trafficked to the European Union from developing countries are likely to come from rural areas. ("Trafficking of Women to the European Union: Characterisitics, Trends and Policy Issues," European Conference on Trafficking in Women, (June 1996), IOM, 7 May 1996)

Official Corruption and Collaboration

European Union governments bear some responsibility for not only tolerating migrant prostitution and trafficking in women but also for encouraging it (Mansson, 1995). ("Trafficking of Women to the European Union: Characterisitics, Trends and Policy Issues," European Conference on Trafficking in Women, June 1996, IOM, 7 May 1996)

In Europe, the behavior of police towards victims of trafficking has led to reluctance on the part of the women to come forward." Police have also been discovered to collaborate with the traffickers (Bouffious and De Staercke, 1994). ("Trafficking of Women to the European Union: Characterisitics, Trends and Policy Issues," European Conference on Trafficking in Women, June 1996, IOM, 7 May 1996)

Health and Well-Being

Given the perilous conditions of some voyages, many women trafficked to the European Union face the threat of injury and even death. The women are frequently forced into a situation of extreme dependency that is comparable to that of being a hostage. The women have limited or no access to health care. ("Trafficking of Women to the European Union: Characterisitics, Trends and Policy Issues," European Conference on Trafficking in Women, (June 1996), IOM, 7 May 1996)

PROSTITUTION

There seems to be a growing demand in the European Union for more extreme and "exotic" sexual services, some of which in and by themselves produce extensive health risks (Mansson, 1995). ("Trafficking of Women to the European Union: Characterisitics, Trends and Policy Issues," European Conference on Trafficking in Women, (June 1996), IOM, 7 May 1996)

Prostitution Tourism

Belgium, France, Germany, Holland and other European nations have more than 15,000 known child sex offenders. ("Global law to punish sex tourists sought by Britain and EU," The Indian Express, 21 November 1997)

PORNOGRAPHY

As a result of the international investigation of a worldwide Internet child pornography ring, European governments are now asking that budgets to control child pornography which were previously due to be cut by the European Commission, be reinstated. German Chancellor Helmut Kohl has set up a committee to draft laws to improve co-ordination in the fight against child porn. Berlin police have stepped up investigations of e-mail addresses and have asked to interrogate the Belgian who was arrested in Rome, claiming that children kidnapped in Berlin were taken to a brothel in Rotterdam. ("Community reels at child horror," South China Morning Post, 23 July 1998)

CoolGuy2006 · 08-05-2006 2:07am

Sorry for the copy and paste job, I was asked for facts so there they are.

So, based on the facts above, can we agree that europe is rife with illegaly trafficked women who are forced into prostitution.

The men that use these women probably dont know the girls background and real situation but they are fully aware of human trafficking and are prepared to take the risk. This is my problem so can people stop saying im a moral superhero and that im a prude.

I AM SAYING THAT THOUSANDS OF SEX SLAVES ARE BEING USED EVERYNIGHT FOR SEX WHICH MEANS THAT THOUSANDS OF MEN ARE BEING IRRESPONSIBLE ENOUGH TO END UP WITH THEM INSTEAD OF WITH THE HAPPY BUISNESS WOMEN YOU ARE ALL TALKING ABOUT* THIS IS MY MAIN POINT SINCE THE BEGINNING

So Doleman, you seem to accept that men go and pay girls for sex (girls who might be trafficked) but you judge me because I dont look at porn.

You have your priorities a bit warped there.

I never said i didnt like porn, i just couldnt enjoy it now with all that i have read about other aspects of it. I really enjoy the movies my girlfriend makes for me, In FACT I LOVE THEM. i love the porn my girfreind makes for me because i know her and i know in what situation she is making it.

DOLEMAN · 08-05-2006 6:59am

Madge wrote:

they are forced to do it because they have no money and need money to live. Simple as.

That's your argument why prostitution is wrong? :rolleyes:

I think you can apply your logic to EVERY SINGLE JOB.

CoolGuy2006 That document you just pasted says 500,000 women are trafficed into Europe, yet then it only has evidence for 155 women. Again, more sensationalist (sp?) nonsense.

If you really believe the girls who work in porn, and the girls in Ireland who are prostitutes are slaves, you need to get your head checked. You are creating a false reality.

Funny how people have always had issues with sex. Lovely Catholic Ireland has really screwed with peoples brains.

Are you going to quit wearing sports clothes CoolGuy2006? Or are child slaves OK because they're not using their vagina?

John R · 08-05-2006 7:57am

CoolGuy2006 wrote:

Taken from http://www.catwinternational.org

TRAFFICKING
...

All of which is more or less true from the various sources I have seen/read.

The solutions to this disgusting organised crime lies in the many failings of the legal systems in all the countries involved.

At the heart of it is the prevailing attitude that prostitutes are basically sub-human. The legal system treats them as criminals and the moralistic elements in society denounces them as scum.

The whole sex industry in all European countries is an underground one and it is this lack of legal control that allows the huge numbers of women being absed in it.

There is nothing inherently wrong with prostitution, it is society's attitude towards it that is wrong.

There is a big trade in slavery from these same former communist states in other areas too, particularly men being forced into manual labour in Russia. Human trafficking of all kinds is a lucrative and relatively safe trade for criminals.

Cracking down on prostitution will not do anything to stop these crimes.

the reasons they exist are complex as are the solutions, tough immigration policies are a big part of it. However there is no political milage for being seen to ease immigration restrictions even if doing so can stop thousands of innocent people being kidnapped and trafficked.

That website is taking a strong moral view on prostitution in general, it barely makes a distinction between enforced slavery/rape and consensual prostitution which is simply bizarre.

Much of the content is compelling but there is an unpalatable undercurrent throughout the site that seems to be using the slave trade as a justification for a general anti-prostitution/anti-pornography political viewpoint.

For a much more rounded view of the subject try these websites. Instead of looking for justification for your point of view try looking at it with an open mind.

http://www.antislavery.org/index.htm

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/svaw/trafficking

http://www.unicef.org.uk/sextraffic

http://www.ecpat.org.uk/

CoolGuy2006 · 08-05-2006 8:04am

DOLEMAN wrote:

If you really believe the girls who work in porn, and the girls in Ireland who are prostitutes are slaves, you need to get your head checked. You are creating a false reality.

Are you going to quit wearing sports clothes CoolGuy2006? Or are child slaves OK because they're not using their vagina?

I didnt say all the girls who work in porn are slaves. If you believe that none are slaves you are a fool and ignorant.

I didnt say that all the prostitutes in Ireland are slaves. If you believe that none are you are a fool and ignorant. i have posted a piece from IOL but you stilll dont seem to want to read it.

What part of me constantly repeating this do you not understand

With regards to sports clothes, I havent purchased any sports clothes in years.

DOLEMAN wrote:

You are creating a false reality.

No my friend, it is you who is creating a false reality. I am not creating these facts out of thin air, these facts are everywhere. Do a search in Google.

DOLEMAN wrote:

Again, more sensationalist (sp?) nonsense.

I am not surprised you are prepared to make such a comment. Disgusting, Go bury your head back in the sand, i know you dont want to hear anything tarnish your precious industry

DOLEMAN · 08-05-2006 8:12am

I read that IOL article, it was nonsense.

I don't think you've read my posts. I said of course there will be a tiny percentage of people who are in the sex industry against their will, but it is a tiny percentage.

Every industry has problems. The food and clothing industry are quite messed up, but as I said, because no vaginas are involved people don't get all upset and guilty.

The solution to prostitution is to legalise it and stop painting the women as damaged and to stop seeing sex and nudity as a bad thing.

CoolGuy2006 · 08-05-2006 8:28am

DOLEMAN wrote:

The solution to prostitution is to legalise it and stop painting the women as damaged and to stop seeing sex and nudity as a bad thing.

you seem to say this like i disagree, i agree 100%, although i dont think legalisation is a big solution by itself. People obviously have to be better educated as to the problems that are out there, problems you say dont exist to the extent they do. As ive said its legal in Germany and Holland where trafficking still exists.

You talk about old Catholic Ireland, It is you who seems like you are from that Era, like those who claimed child abuse by the Clergy wasnt really happening

So every piece i can find on the subject you will just call it nonsense :-(

Faith · 08-05-2006 10:59am

Madge wrote:

If women didn't need to do prostitution they wouldn't. I doubt they are in it for the fun of it :rolleyes: they are forced to do it because they have no money and need money to live. Simple as.

This is absolute nonsense. Prostitution has been around since the dawn of time. Women don't need prostitution at all. In Ireland at least, we have a social security system. Nobody is going to starve to death. If they need money, they can sign on for the dole. Alternatively, they can get a real job. Many prostitutes choose to be streetwalkers simply because it is a well paying job. They could get a job in Tesco and work 40 hours a week, earning €8 an hour. Or they could prostitute themselves for €50 an hour. They would earn more in 7 hours by prostituting themselves than working 40 hours in a minimum wage job. Sure, having your body invaded by random strangers is unpleasant, but there are plenty of unpleasant jobs. I can't imagine being a trash collector is much fun either.

Sleepy · 08-05-2006 11:10am

I think SpaceMan42 had it right about 3 pages back. Doleman has commented on the same thing: slavery exists because of trade and immigration barriers. The people being trafficked (men, women and children) and exploited in various industries are usually being tricked into it with the promise of visas and work in more economically developed countries. The only difference I can see in opinions here is that CoolGuy2006 is of the opinion that women being forced into the sex trade have it worse than men being forced into working in mines, children being forced into working in sweatshops etc. While I can see the point (that she is effectively being put through the repeated trauma of sexual assault or rape while the others are 'just' being made to do 'regular' work) and agree with it to an extent I think that trying to crack down on the demand side of this equation is flawed economic thinking.

If we can all agree that there is nothing wrong with consensual prostitution (and indeed the laws of our land agree with this, choosing to make solicitation or pimping rather than the act of prostitution itself illegal), we then need to look at how to prevent those operating in this market from exploiting victims of human trafficking. The first major step that can be taken towards this is legalisation of the kind seen in Nevada, where all prostitutes undergo regular (I think it's monthly) health checks and have access to counsellors etc in order to maintain their licence.

In this type of environment, any victims of trafficking can be identified and helped quickly. This would make the business less profitable for the scum that currently engage in it and should disuade many of them from continuing it.

Loosening immigration laws would prevent a large amount of the current trafficking at source. If there's no difficulty for a girl in Eastern Europe to get a visa to come work in Ireland/the UK/Germany, there's no reason for her to put her life in the hands of some opportunist who plans to force her into the sex trade to 'repay her debt' to them.

CoolGuy2006 · 08-05-2006 11:21am

Sleepy wrote:

The only difference I can see in opinions here is that CoolGuy2006 is of the opinion that women being forced into the sex trade have it worse than men being forced into working in mines, children being forced into working in sweatshops etc.

where on earth did you see i have this opinion. other people here have said this about me but i havent. Dont tell me what my opinions are when i havent even talked about it personally.

We were talking about prostitution, someone mentioned other acts against humanity. I dont condone these or see it them as any less of a crime. I was merely focusing on the trafficking of women. So i cant have a problem with the trafficking of women because there are other problems out there.

I think someone made the point to try and make me look like i was a Hypocrite, something which isnt true

DadaKopf · 08-05-2006 11:37am

DOLEMAN wrote:

I said of course there will be a tiny percentage of people who are in the sex industry against their will, but it is a tiny percentage. [...] Every industry has problems.

So because every industry has problems then prostitution is OK?

According to a European Commission research paper (pg. 13), as of 2000:

There are 4 m people throughout the world who are victims of trafficking yearly

500 000 victims of trafficking enter western Europe annually

80% of prostitutes in Europe are immigrants. Among the total of trafficked women there are many from central and eastern Europe (from Albania, the Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Romania, Bulgaria and Ukraine). In the Netherlands 70% (80% in Amsterdam), in Germany between 60 and 80 %, in Austria 80% and in Italy 80% of all trafficked women come from eastern Europe.

There are an estimated 40,000 foreign prostitutes in Italy, mostly controlled by the Albanian Mafia. One of the attempts to fight back includes giving women permission to remain in Italy in return for giving evidence against the gangs.

[From the Irish Examiner]

There's little reason to believe that the situation has radically improved in six years.

Again from the report:

The potential victims of trafficking from central and eastern Europe are very young women living in poverty who want to help their families by moving to the West, so they can earn money to send back home. Currently, women’s plans are to make good money and return. In some cases, these girls did not know that they were going to work as prostitutes when they left their homes; other women know that they are being recruited for prostitution (in both cases, on becoming prostitutes they are unable to escape their situation of slavery).

Based on a small sample of 108 women who contacted an NGO in the Netherlands, the next table shows that only one-fourth of women understood they would be expected to perform sexual services. The majority had been lured into migration with promises of legitimate jobs, for example as domestic workers or waitresses.

[...]

It is important to emphasise that in both cases, whether they were aware or not that they were to work as prostitutes, those women are forced to work against their will and are deprived of their earnings. They thus become slaves.

[...]

According to a study carried out in 1994 by the Foundation Against Trafficking in Women (an NGO), of 155 women from eastern Europe, mainly from Ukraine, the Czech Republic and Poland, 75% were under the age of 25, and many of these were aged between 15 and 18.

It seems like Ireland is an exception in Europe due to our isolation, but a report the other day indicated that we are now becoming an attractive location for trafficers and pimps. In most other countries, despite legalisation, it seems that the majority of prostitutes are migrants, many brought over by mafi-run trafficers.

Clearly, these women didn't freely "choose" to become prostitutes. Those who expected to work as prostitutes before they travelled assumed they'd be leaving the industry once they made their money (this was a hard decision they made out of desparation), though they end up living as sex slaves (i.e. no choice at all). Many children (15-18 year old girls) believe they're going to work as waitresses etc., but also become sex slaves. More than it not being choice, it's child abuse.

But if you guys are OK with a 1 in 1.25 chance of supporting one of the most dispicable forms of abuse in the world, uh, fine, so long as you don't get a disease, eh?

CoolGuy2006 · 08-05-2006 11:39am

Faith wrote:

Prostitution has been around since the dawn of time. Women don't need prostitution at all. .

faith, it is you who is generalising. Yes not all women who work as prostitutes need to but some do. Drug addiction and other situations are a big factor in Ireland. Telling someone that there is always the option of working for TESCO doesnt help. you obviously have no real understanding of how life can be for these people. I think in your postion you couldnt understand how a woman needs it or sees it as her only option. Sadly, many women do. Use google, there is a wealth of imformation out there.

I will stress again before anyone criticises me. i know there are many women happily working in prostitution, not everyone is in the same boat though, you have to accept this

Tar.Aldarion · 08-05-2006 11:43am

CoolGuy2006 wrote:

faith, it is you who is generalising. Yes not all women who work as prostitutes need to but some do. Drug addiction is a big factor in Ireland. I think in your postion you coudlnt understand how a woman needs it or sees it as her only option. Sadly, many women do.

She is referring to Ireland, in Ireland, they do not.

CoolGuy2006 · 08-05-2006 11:50am

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

She is referring to Ireland, in Ireland, they do not.

I was referring to ireland too. this is a very naive attitude you have. Use google

Tar.Aldarion · 08-05-2006 11:56am

CoolGuy2006 wrote:

I was referring to ireland too. this is a very naive attitude you have. Use google

What makes you think I haven't. In Ireland, it is not a necessity. Drug addiction, homlessness etc make no difference. It is not.

CoolGuy2006 · 08-05-2006 11:59am

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

What makes you think I haven't. In Ireland, it is not a necessity. Drug addiction, homlessness etc make no difference. It is not.

Only because we dont see it as a necessity it doesnt mean that some people in Fu*ked up situations dont. Its like telling a homeless person there is no need for him to be sleeping out on the streets. Great way to solve a problem :-(

Prostitution

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