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Journalism and cycling

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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Uk data, but i doubt we're much different:
    http://www.cyclinguk.org/campaigning/views-and-briefings/pedestrians

    Most notably:
    • The vast majority of vehicle-related pedestrian injuries on the footway/verge involve a motor vehicle, not a cycle: from 2005-14 (GB), 98.5% of pedestrian fatalities and 95.7% of pedestrian serious injuries that happened in collisions on a footway/verge involved a motor vehicle.
    • From 2005-14, no pedestrians in Britain were killed by red light jumping cyclists, while around five a year were killed by red light jumping drivers.

    So, when it comes to dangers for pedestrians on the footpath, or due to other road users breaking red lights, those are the facts.

    But every single article in every single paper in the country that talks about cycling HAS to include large amounts of nonsense about how dangerous cyclists are.

    It's a joke, it really is.


  • Registered Users Posts: 136 ✭✭AlreadyHome


    My letter to the editor:

    RE: Why cycling safety is a two-way street - Tuesday 4th October 2016

    Sir,

    While I welcome Dick Ahlstrom's call for increased government funding of cycle infrastructure, I despair of the author's unrelated complaint of cyclists' behavior in the same breath. When talk of budgeting for motorways is raised, do we mention drivers' use of mobile phones or breaking the speed limit?

    It is an indisputable fact that the vast majority of injuries and deaths on Irish roads are as a result of driver error. I would suggest that until cyclists become responsible for a comparable number of tragedies, talk of misbehaving cyclists is treated as the distraction it is. In the meantime, how about we focus on the environmental, economic and welfare benefits that an improved cycling infrastructure will have on our country and its citizens?

    Yours, etc,

    AlreadyHome


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,211 ✭✭✭✭greenspurs


    My letter to the editor:

    RE: Why cycling safety is a two-way street - Tuesday 4th October 2016

    Sir,

    While I welcome Dick Ahlstrom's call for increased government funding of cycle infrastructure, I despair of the author's unrelated complaint of cyclists' behavior in the same breath. When talk of budgeting for motorways is raised, do we mention drivers' use of mobile phones or breaking the speed limit?

    It is an indisputable fact that the vast majority of injuries and deaths on Irish roads are as a result of driver error. I would suggest that until cyclists become responsible for a comparable number of tragedies, talk of misbehaving cyclists is treated as the distraction it is. In the meantime, how about we focus on the environmental, economic and welfare benefits that an improved cycling infrastructure will have on our country and its citizens?

    Yours, etc,

    AlreadyHome

    Excellent...
    Who do we send this to?

    "Bright lights and Thunder .................... "



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭Chuchote


    My letter to the editor:

    RE: Why cycling safety is a two-way street - Tuesday 4th October 2016

    Sir,

    While I welcome Dick Ahlstrom's call for increased government funding of cycle infrastructure, I despair of the author's unrelated complaint of cyclists' behavior in the same breath. When talk of budgeting for motorways is raised, do we mention drivers' use of mobile phones or breaking the speed limit?

    It is an indisputable fact that the vast majority of injuries and deaths on Irish roads are as a result of driver error. I would suggest that until cyclists become responsible for a comparable number of tragedies, talk of misbehaving cyclists is treated as the distraction it is. In the meantime, how about we focus on the environmental, economic and welfare benefits that an improved cycling infrastructure will have on our country and its citizens?

    Yours, etc,

    AlreadyHome

    Superb.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,194 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    greenspurs wrote: »
    Excellent...
    Who do we send this to?
    i don't think it's a petition, if AlreadyHome has already sent it, job done.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,762 ✭✭✭jive


    The cyclist behaviour nonsense really grates on me. If there were no infrastructure or planning at all and just bicycles then there would be as close to 0% road fatalities as you could get. The problem is that people, not motorists or cyclists, are moronic at times; being moronic on a 15kg bicycle is a lot more forgiving than in a 2000kg car.


  • Registered Users Posts: 136 ✭✭AlreadyHome


    greenspurs wrote: »
    Excellent...
    Who do we send this to?

    I sent it as a 'letter to the editor' at the Irish Times. Would encourage everyone here to do something along the same line when they read or listen to someone irk them in the media or political sphere - only takes a few minutes!


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,761 ✭✭✭Pinch Flat


    However, driving on footpaths? driving on the wrong side of the road? driving across pedestrian crossings? driving incorrectly on a one way street?
    How many times have you seen it?
    Cyclists do it all day, everyday.

    Have you ever paused to think while cyclists do this? cyclists don't cycle on paths for the laugh or to terrorize pedestrians - they do this because they feel threatened on the road. Lots of kids (and some adults) cycle on the paths where I live - I'd personally prefer this to them being ferried about and contributing to traffic congestion.

    Driving down one way streets? how about we being in more contra flows. Problem solved. try cycling from east to west Dublin along the convoluted routes designed to try and address car congestion - one way streets, no left / right turns - all these are done to try and address the impossible - traffic congestion. Lets make our roads more cycling friendly and these problems go away over night.

    Numbers driving through red lights compared to cyclists doing likewise? One in five I reckon, is being extremely generous.
    Numbers of drivers overtaking in a dangerous fashion compared to cyclists "sharing" occupied lanes, overtaking on the left of a vehicle indicating left / in tight spaces?
    One for one? I don't think so.

    The reason more drivers don't do this is because it's more difficult - that's not to say 3, 4 or sometimes 5 cars will stream through a red, depending on the junction and in the ever present need to 'beat the traffic'. This morning a case in point - castleknock, lights broke in the center of the village. Park gate street - overtaken by a van, to swoop left up military road, in front of me and another cyclist, through a red. Christchurch - this junction is almost farcical - to the extent that a car (or sometimes several, in addition to some cyclists) will stream through waaaaay after the red.

    Cyclists are entitled to move up the left of cars - even if they're stationary and indicating left.
    There isn't a media driven campaign. The behaviour of a significant proportion (more than 50%) of cyclists is a big pain, sometimes dangerous to others - pedestrians, cyclists and motorists - and that is why there are so many negative articles and comments.
    I don't see major inaccuracy in the article and I don't see a problem with the timing.

    the hate against cyclists is media driven - the Irish Times and other publications is heavily subsidized by the car industry through advertising, so they're hardly going to upset their pay masters.

    When's the last time you saw an advert for the latest bike, or a "Cycling Section" to counter the motoring one?

    Motorists feed on this hate and it's whipped up by the radio - turn into George Hook and you're going to be whipped into a frenzy while you crawl home at 15 kph.

    "I'm stuck in a traffic jam I've helped create, who can I blame? Oh look a cyclist breaking a red"


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,211 ✭✭✭✭greenspurs


    i don't think it's a petition, if AlreadyHome has already sent it, job done.

    It doesn't have to be a petition....

    If more than one send in letters , MAYBE these editors might actually realise that cyclists should have a say, and an opinion also .

    "Bright lights and Thunder .................... "



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,461 ✭✭✭mcgratheoin


    Sent this to the councillors - tried to keep it positive - I figure if there's a debate somebody might stand up and say that DCC have an obligation under the NCPF to fulfill these objectives and perhaps point to Grafton Street as an example of a legacy that the council could point to in future years.
    A chara,

    I am writing to you in relation to the forthcoming plan for the Liffey Cycle Route in Dublin City centre. I am a regular cyclist who commutes over 30km round trip each day along the quays from the Westmanstown area to Ballsbridge, largely without incident and alongside traffic that is for the most part courteous. Rather than setting forth my own personal opinions of the positives involved in prioritising public transport, cycling and walking within Dublin i would like to take this opportunity to remind you of the aims and objectives contained within the National Cycle Policy, which is at present more than halfway through its lifetime. You may recall that the overall "mission is to create a strong cycling culture in Ireland" with the vision that "10% of all trips will be by bike by 2020".

    Dublin City Council has an exciting window of opportunity to be a genuine and inspiring leader in implementing this vision and the proposed plans would fulfill numerous objectives outlined in the National Cycle Policy Framework. As we close in on the 25th anniversary of the pedestrianisation of Grafton Street I would implore you to reflect on the below objectives during your examination of any cycling plans put forward to the Council and to give strong consideration as to the social and infrastructural legacy which you wish to bestow upon this great city.

    Yours etc..... - included the 19 objectives as well


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  • Registered Users Posts: 935 ✭✭✭Roadhawk


    Deedsie wrote: »
    Ok who are we to send these to? Ill do it after lunch.
    greenspurs wrote: »
    Excellent...
    Who do we send this to?

    Well the Irish Times digital editor is Paddy Logue (plogue@irishtimes.com). You are free to voice your opinion/concerns however i'm not sure how serious it will be taken. Editors receive umpteen positive and negative responses to published pieces.

    Logue also has a fairly accurate article on cyclists published earlier this year:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/patrick-logue-cyclists-need-to-stop-peddling-excuses-for-rule-breaking-1.2642664


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,194 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    a friend of a friend used to be letters ed for the irish times. they may get umpteen responses, but a hell of a lot of it is drivel apparently.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,374 ✭✭✭Eponymous


    Roadhawk wrote: »
    Well the Irish Times digital editor is Paddy Logue (plogue@irishtimes.com). You are free to voice your opinion/concerns however i'm not sure how serious it will be taken. Editors receive umpteen positive and negative responses to published pieces.

    Logue also has a fairly accurate article on cyclists published earlier this year:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/patrick-logue-cyclists-need-to-stop-peddling-excuses-for-rule-breaking-1.2642664
    By accurate, you mean confirms your own opinion?


  • Registered Users Posts: 136 ✭✭AlreadyHome


    Roadhawk wrote: »
    Well the Irish Times digital editor is Paddy Logue (plogue@irishtimes.com). You are free to voice your opinion/concerns however i'm not sure how serious it will be taken. Editors receive umpteen positive and negative responses to published pieces.

    Logue also has a fairly accurate article on cyclists published earlier this year:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/patrick-logue-cyclists-need-to-stop-peddling-excuses-for-rule-breaking-1.2642664

    Oh great...so it looks like the editor himself is avidly pro-cycling!


  • Registered Users Posts: 382 ✭✭12 sprocket


    Chuchote wrote: »
    @Billgirlylegs You haven't been looking at the statistics. The Road Safety Association, scarcely a cyclist-friendly group, did a big study (25,000+ cyclists) of how many cyclists go through red lights recently: 1 in 8 was the number. Nothing like the numbers you're claiming.




    http://irishcycle.com/2016/05/26/only-1-in-8-cyclists-run-red-lights-says-study-of-60-irish-junctions/
    http://www.independent.ie/life/motoring/car-news/revealed-how-cyclists-drivers-fare-on-helmets-and-foglights-34743099.html

    How many cars go through? My own, amateur, estimate would be that three or four cars tend to zip through after the lights have gone red on most light-changes. And this is really dangerous.

    A cyclist (say 150kg of human on a 15kg bicycle) who goes through a red light is endangering only himself or herself (if that) in virtually all cases; usually s/he has checked that there's nothing coming. A car (say 2 tons) is a weaponised metal projectile, and going much faster. If it hits you, you're going to be badly hurt.

    Some figures on cars hitting people:

    • If someone is hit by a car at 65kph they are 90% likely to be killed
    • If someone is hit by a car at 50kph they are 50% likely to be killed
    • If someone is hit by a car at 30kph they are 10% likely to be killed
    "How many cars go through? My own, amateur, estimate would be that three or four cars tend to zip through after the lights have gone red on most light-changes. And this is really dangerous."

    Yes it is really dangerous ..Especially for a gob****e of a cyclist who cycles through on the red!.........


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    The IT had a terrible article on an analysis of motorbike deaths,where they throw in confusing stats, victim blaming and non-sequiturs.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/one-in-three-motorcyclists-who-died-in-crashes-had-drunk-alcohol-study-1.2815259

    Headline : One in three motorcyclists who died in crashes had drunk alcohol
    29% had - close enough

    but now the voodoo begins
    IT wrote:
    Of those, 29 per cent had consumed alcohol before their crash and 71 per cent of those were over the current blood/alcohol limit (almost half were four times over the limit)

    The use of 71% of 29% to inflate the issue, instead of saying 20% were over the current Blood alcohol limit.
    The study covers a period when most of the time the blood alcohol limit was higher. It tries to smear people who if they did something now which would be illegal with something that may or may not have been illegal when they did it.

    Another shoddy weasle statement
    it wrote:
    The analysis found that in 86 per cent of motorcycle fatal crashes, the motorcyclist was culpable, or partly culpable,
    With no definition of partly culpable given. If someone is 49% culpable does that excuse the more culpable person?

    Lastly, the researcher looked at the causes of 887 fatal collisions, but the article focuses only on 93 of them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭Chuchote


    "How many cars go through? My own, amateur, estimate would be that three or four cars tend to zip through after the lights have gone red on most light-changes. And this is really dangerous."

    Yes it is really dangerous ..Especially for a gob****e of a cyclist who cycles through on the red!.........

    Well, typical day, today I was crossing the street, wheeling my bicycle, in Rathmines. The pedestrian light was flashing amber, giving me right of way. Several cars drove at me; one taxi stopped (thank you), others whipped past in front of my wheel. Sneering at cyclists doesn't make it true; loud doesn't mean right.

    Dear God, that Paddy Logue article is dim:
    Patrick Logue: Cyclists need to stop peddling excuses for rule-breaking
    The cycling lobby does itself no favours by engaging in tribal finger-pointing in an effort to excuse bad cycling behaviour

    There was a gesture used in the 1950s to symbolise that an idea was utterly drippy, it was like slowly shaking water off the fingers of one hand, allied with eye-rolling. That's the effect that kind of piece has on any sensible reader.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,194 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    "How many cars go through? My own, amateur, estimate would be that three or four cars tend to zip through after the lights have gone red on most light-changes. And this is really dangerous."

    Yes it is really dangerous ..Especially for a gob****e of a cyclist who cycles through on the red!.........
    what do you mean - the motorists breaking the red is dangerous for cyclists who have broken the red?


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,740 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    The IT had a terrible article on an analysis of motorbike deaths,where they throw in confusing stats, victim blaming and non-sequiturs.

    I suspect a lot of the confusion is because they're quoting or paraphrasing the RSA, who are terrible at statistical analysis, partly because they can't stop mixing up analysis with campaigning and moralising.

    The analysis part of their brief should be taken off them and given to someone who doesn't see everything as PR.
    Ms Martin spent months pouring over 867 fatal crash reports
    Spell check is not enough.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭NiallBoo


    Yes it is really dangerous ..Especially for a gob****e of a cyclist who cycles through on the red!.........

    if a cyclist has also broken the red then they won't be in danger from a motorist who has because they'll be traveling in the same direction.

    The danger is to crossing pedestrians, motorists and especially cyclists that have just gotten a green light( bikes are usually quicker off the mark)...and of course, the luas.

    It also means that designers have to allow a painful amount of dead time between changes to stop these people from causing crashes.


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,194 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    a motorist breaking a red is not dangerous to a cyclist breaking the same red; but at many (most?) junctions, the motorist breaking the red is dangerous to those driving through a green light, rather than other road users breaking a red.


  • Registered Users Posts: 935 ✭✭✭Roadhawk


    Look, the red light/green green light laws could not be clearer. Stop on red go on green. There is no satisfactory explanation for anyone on any mode of transport who decides to break a red light. Level of risk depending on what mode you are using is not a factor...ever.


  • Registered Users Posts: 935 ✭✭✭Roadhawk


    Chuchote wrote: »
    Well, typical day, today I was crossing the street, wheeling my bicycle, in Rathmines. The pedestrian light was flashing amber, giving me right of way.

    Does a flashing amber give a pedestrian right of way at a pedestrian crossing? I would have thought so at a zebra crossing but not a pedestrian crossing.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I love the way the thread has proved its own point. Here we are talking about cyclists breaking red lights again.

    As accurately observed above, imagine if ANY conversation about cars / investment in roads was immediately hijacked by people going on about speeding all the time. Absurd.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭NiallBoo


    Roadhawk wrote: »
    Does a flashing amber give a pedestrian right of way at a pedestrian crossing? I would have thought so at a zebra crossing but not a pedestrian crossing.

    Flashing amber means that a motorist/cyclist may proceed only if the crossing is clear.

    The pedestrian still has right-of-way until it becomes a red man on the pedestrian crossing.

    I suppose you could say that the crossing is essentially a zebra-crossing while it's flashing amber.

    Although zebra crossings are different to light-controlled crossings.


  • Registered Users Posts: 935 ✭✭✭Roadhawk


    Deedsie wrote: »
    I agree, cyclists defending this is ridiculous. The same for cycling on a one way street. It doesn't matter what the rules are in different countries. Respect the laws of the country you are in.

    Dont break red lights. Its not that complicated.

    Exactly, its quite simple but must apply for all modes of transport. Im fully aware that some cars will squeeze an amber or early red (which is still illegal) however it not as blatant as a deliberate act to jump the lights at any stage.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭NiallBoo


    Roadhawk wrote: »
    Im fully aware that some cars will squeeze an amber or early red (which is still illegal) however it not as blatant as a deliberate act to jump the lights at any stage.
    ...It's every bit as blatant. In spite of what people might tell themselves about it supposedly not harming anyone, they know damn well they're breaking the red.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 19,705 Mod ✭✭✭✭Weepsie


    I love the way the thread has proved its own point. Here we are talking about cyclists breaking red lights again.

    As accurately observed above, imagine if ANY conversation about cars / investment in roads was immediately hijacked by people going on about speeding all the time. Absurd.

    Ive often thought about starting such absurd topics in the motoring threads and whatnot.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Roadhawk wrote: »
    Exactly, its quite simple but must apply for all modes of transport. Im fully aware that some cars will squeeze an amber or early red (which is still illegal) however it not as blatant as a deliberate act to jump the lights at any stage.

    How is it not? You are just making excuses now.

    I thought you were serious about road safety, with all your 'red lights are not confusing' talk. Clearly not.


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 19,705 Mod ✭✭✭✭Weepsie


    Roadhawk wrote: »
    Exactly, its quite simple but must apply for all modes of transport. Im fully aware that some cars will squeeze an amber or early red (which is still illegal) however it not as blatant as a deliberate act to jump the lights at any stage.

    Oh wow, this is up there with the stupidest things on here. You say yourself it's illegal, so yes, yes it is.

    From the cyclist point of view jumping early may be because they don't trust the car behind them in the lane to have any patience and squeeze by (I get this everyday), but of course they might just be an arse thinking the light is nothing but an inconvenience to them. In some, some cases I'd understand it, but don't do it.

    From the driving point of view, it seems to be ah sure I'll gamble, save a minute or so, my journey is terribly important. In no cases except medical emergency to I understand it


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