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Is Totalitarianism on the rise on The Left?

24

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭hill16bhoy


    And I'd still like to hear where this totalitarianism from the left is. The OP might have just been confused about the meaning of words but I wouldn't mind having that clarified.

    The OP talked about "fact over feeling", yet could only provide feeling, which is about all the right can do these days.

    Right-wing politics has always had an intellectual crisis, it has consistently been on the wrong side of history, it has always sought to deny rthe rights of minorities and the vulnerable, but it has never had more of an intelletual crisis never than now. In country after country, it has been hijacked by crypto-facists and populist bull****ters to whom truth is a mortal enemy.

    Trump and Brexit are just the most obvious chaotic manifestations of it, but Brazil, India, Russia, Poland, Hungary, Italy and the Philippines etc. are now in the grip of outright fascist or crypto-fascist chaos as well. The wider manifestations of it are an onslaught of hate speech against minorities and the vulnerable, resulting in the inevitable upsurge of far right terrorism like Christchurch last week.

    Right-wing politics these days (and I don't include the vast majority of Fine Gael and Fianna Fail in this as, while I'd never vote for them, they at least are rooted in some sort of moderation) is an intellectual black hole, a bankrupt sham that has no ideas other than to wallow in pathetic imagined victimhood.

    To people who support this sort of crypto-fascism, the fascists are never the fascists, they are the victims, and anything to the left of this bankrupt cesspit of idiocy is "totalitarianism".

    Orwellian doesn't even begin to explain it.

    The notion that there is a problem with so called "left wing totalitarianism", like everything else in the make believe world of right-wing crypto-fascism, is a fantasy.

    And remember, these people are never, ever here to debate, only to throw out lies. They're here to gaslight, to deliberately try to distort reality. This includes several posters on this thread.

    Right-wing politics has given up the ghost in terms of cloaking its real self. Now that the rights of women, ethnic and racial minorities, gay and trans people etc. are pretty much enshrined, at least in Europe and in much of the developed world, the great pushback from the bigots has begun. And because there are literally no legitimate reasons whatsoever for a pushback on people's rights, only naked bigotry, obfuscation and disinformation can be used to achieve these insane objectives.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,780 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Ultros wrote: »
    It's not just the US ( below twitter link )...

    Ugh, what a stupid headline.

    "...with knife crimes soaring across the UK, should every other crime be ignored completely?"


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,703 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Ultros wrote:
    article in the New York Times, around 20% of "professors" in the social sciences identity as Marxist.


    And what is wrong with Marxism?


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,651 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Ultros wrote: »
    article in the New York Times, around 20% of "professors" in the social sciences identity as Marxist.

    ]

    80% of professors aren’t Marxist? The Marxist takeover is really going poorly.

    You do realise how stupid it is to blather on about the takeover of academia by Marxists and then present this figure as some sort of proof?

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,651 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Ultros wrote: »
    If you think it's bad here ( it's really not even when you take into account 90% of posters are left wingers ), have a look at r/politics on reddit. It's a online liberal pac posing as a neutral political discussion forum.

    Anything they consider negative or even neutral in tone is muted. At least the cesspool Trump forum is honest about what it is.

    90% of the posters on boards or in the politics forum?

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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  • Ultros wrote: »
    According to this article in the New York Times, around 20% of "professors" in the social sciences identity as Marxist.

    So 20% of pretty clever, well studied people in the area of Social Sciences think Marxism is a good idea?

    Sure what would they know?
    /Sarcasm


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    So 20% of pretty clever, well studied people in the area of Social Sciences think Marxism is a good idea?

    Sure what would they know?
    /Sarcasm

    I’m not sure what you are being sarcastic about really. Arguments to credentialism don’t really work with the pseudo sciences. If 20% of well “studied people” in the social sciences think Marxism is a good idea then the social sciences are bunk. 100% of well studied philosophers in the Middle Ages believed in God but that’s what they studied.

    It’s not confined to what’s commonly called the social sciences, economics is largely driven by ideology as well. Although there is, at least, a movement to empiricism in it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,682 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Brian? wrote: »
    80% of professors aren’t Marxist? The Marxist takeover is really going poorly.

    You do realise how stupid it is to blather on about the takeover of academia by Marxists and then present this figure as some sort of proof?

    Would you be so blase if 20% of the professors identified as Fascists?

    Both are extreme ideologies, yet one seems to be accepted while the other is rightly vilified


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,237 ✭✭✭mcmoustache


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    And what is wrong with Marxism?


    To be fair, it's a garbage way to run a society when the population exceeds that of a village. The systems that have brought the most improvement to most people have used combinations of free markets alongside decent social policies funded by progressive taxation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,237 ✭✭✭mcmoustache


    Brian? wrote: »
    90% of the posters on boards or in the politics forum?


    The assumption is that if you're not a racist Trump supporter that you must be on the left. Even if you like free markets, fiscal responsibility and strong justice system.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,682 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    hill16bhoy wrote: »

    Trump and Brexit are just the most obvious chaotic manifestations of it, but Brazil, India, Russia, Poland, Hungary, Italy and the Philippines etc.

    India on that list, but no Turkey, Suadi Arabia, Iran... pretty much the entire Muslim world really. Not to forget the King daddy of them all, China's Xi Jinping who declared himself president for life last year.

    Yes, some western governments are lurching to the populist right, as a response to economic factors (the rise of globalisation) and blaming it on record levels of migration.

    Hillary Clinton stated that to curb the rise of the European right, countries should limit migration.
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/22/hillary-clinton-europe-must-curb-immigration-stop-populists-trump-brexit
    “I think Europe needs to get a handle on migration because that is what lit the flame,” Clinton said, speaking as part of a series of interviews with senior centrist political figures about the rise of populists, particularly on the right, in Europe and the Americas.

    “I admire the very generous and compassionate approaches that were taken particularly by leaders like Angela Merkel, but I think it is fair to say Europe has done its part, and must send a very clear message – ‘we are not going to be able to continue provide refuge and support’ – because if we don’t deal with the migration issue it will continue to roil the body politic.”

    Fancy that, a practical solution to stop this phenomenon. So the real question is, do you want to be virtuous, or do you want to stop the problem.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,703 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    To be fair, it's a garbage way to run a society when the population exceeds that of a village. The systems that have brought the most improvement to most people have used combinations of free markets alongside decent social policies funded by progressive taxation.

    i always love comments on Marxism, do people actually read up on what it means? id class my own understanding of Marxism as vague at best but, returning the means of production to the public doesnt sound half bad to me of course it has its limitations but...


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,682 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    i always love comments on Marxism, do people actually read up on what it means? id class my own understanding of Marxism as vague at best but, returning the means of production to the public doesnt sound half bad to me of course it has its limitations but...

    That is the nail on the head.

    It sounds lovely of course, that is the broad appeal. But when implemented, it's always famine, genocide, economic ruin, poverty, human rights abuses.

    Now some will argue that it is never been implemented the correct way as if the 37th time of trying some nation will crack the code. :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 219 ✭✭Schnitzler Hiyori Geta


    Brian? wrote: »
    90% of the posters on boards or in the politics forum?
    We should do a poll to check. In reality, everyone has done that political compass test and nobody is truly "left" or "right"


  • Registered Users Posts: 219 ✭✭Schnitzler Hiyori Geta


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    i always love comments on Marxism, do people actually read up on what it means? id class my own understanding of Marxism as vague at best but, returning the means of production to the public doesnt sound half bad to me of course it has its limitations but...

    But what does that actually mean in 2019?

    You want public ownership of all car manufacturers?
    What about Google? Is that "production"? Arguably it is.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    I think all most want is a fair and level playing field. Socialism is a dirty word in the U.S. because they picture the U.S.S.R.
    In these systems we (dis)function in there are elements that will always be wealthy and be protected and aided in that wealth. Goldman Sachs is a good example.
    Walmart is another example. Staff so poorly paid they need the US tax payer to subsidise them, while Walmart make a tidy profit. There's nothing free market about that IMO.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,237 ✭✭✭mcmoustache


    I think all most want is a fair and level playing field. Socialism is a dirty word in the U.S. because they picture the U.S.S.R.


    Here in europe we're mostly social democracies. It's a pragmatic mishmash of capitalism and socialism and it works better than any single ideology that I've ever heard of.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Here in europe we're mostly social democracies. It's a pragmatic mishmash of capitalism and socialism and it works better than any single ideology that I've ever heard of.

    Agreed. I think all systems are open to cute hoorism and sweet deals though. It's human nature sadly. The down side of course is a slew of parties so similar we get the same chancers time and again which in itself makes inappropriate behaviour easier to accomplish.
    The Republicans and Democrats would have networks set up and ready to go once they get in I'd imagine.

    I'd like to see the Democrats overhauled to give the U.S. a decent alternative.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,718 ✭✭✭Cordell


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    And what is wrong with Marxism?

    The fact that asking this question in a marxist regime will probably land you in jail as a reactionary element seeking to destabilize the society by seeding doubt.
    That is, assuming that there will be a place where you can engage in this kind of debates.


  • Registered Users Posts: 582 ✭✭✭Hobosan


    "The perfect ideology is, 'Everybody Do What They Want'.

    All we need is to overthrow the current system and setup up a new one which will strictly enforce this rule."

    That's a condensed version of the Communist Manifesto.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,262 ✭✭✭✭manual_man


    If you're worried about totalitarianism coming from the left and you're not seeing the exact same stuff coming from the right, then you're part of the problem.

    Everything is now dominated by the extremists and the people who can see both sides (i.e. the centrists) are completely ignored.

    There's a lot of problems with this post. First and foremost it just seems like an exercise in defeatism. Extremists can only succeed if decent people give up or opt out, thus creating a vacuum for them to enter in to. Good, decent people DO have the power. The problem we have is far too many are remaining silent and as a result extremist elements are dominating discourse, influencing legislation. It's easy to blame extremist elements, but the cold hard truth is that their dominance is a reflection of society as a whole. If enough people had spoken up, we wouldn't be where we are today. And frankly, we need to take ownership of this - as the first step to turning things around. That will mean standing on principle and calling people (and institutions) out regardless of where they fall on the political spectrum. I don't even consider myself a right-winger. I used to lean quite strongly left (and still do if that political compass test is anything to go by), which is perhaps why i'm so concerned (and quite critical) of the direction the left has been going for some time now.

    The left has tremendous influence and power in media and education. But whereas the left used to be very open to conversation and discussing ideas and debate and moving things forward, now so often there is such a fierce resistance to debate which is deeply worrying to me. I've always believed sunlight is the best disinfectant for bad ideas - expose them, ridicule them, debate them, defeat them. But far too often now on the left the first instinct is to try to silence opposing ideas, going after and attacking and demonizing people and often throwing cheap labels on them which are designed to instill fear. This is not the type of left i want to associate with. It has a real authoritarian bent which is antithetical to the libertarian left which used to be to the fore but which is now sadly playing second fiddle to the identity politics players and wannabe authoritarians. It is not too late to turn things around though. But for this to happen, liberty-loving leftists have to SPEAK UP. Which is what i hope happens.


  • Registered Users Posts: 895 ✭✭✭sameoldname


    manual_man wrote: »
    There's a lot of problems with this post. First and foremost it just seems like an exercise in defeatism. Extremists can only succeed if decent people give up or opt out, thus creating a vacuum for them to enter in to. Good, decent people DO have the power. The problem we have is far too many are remaining silent and as a result extremist elements are dominating discourse, influencing legislation. It's easy to blame extremist elements, but the cold hard truth is that their dominance is a reflection of society as a whole. If enough people had spoken up, we wouldn't be where we are today. And frankly, we need to take ownership of this - as the first step to turning things around. That will mean standing on principle and calling people (and institutions) out regardless of where they fall on the political spectrum. I don't even consider myself a right-winger. I used to lean quite strongly left (and still do if that political compass test is anything to go by), which is perhaps why i'm so concerned (and quite critical) of the direction the left has been going for some time now.

    The left has tremendous influence and power in media and education. But whereas the left used to be very open to conversation and discussing ideas and debate and moving things forward, now so often there is such a fierce resistance to debate which is deeply worrying to me. I've always believed sunlight is the best disinfectant for bad ideas - expose them, ridicule them, debate them, defeat them. But far too often now on the left the first instinct is to try to silence opposing ideas, going after and attacking and demonizing people and often throwing cheap labels on them which are designed to instill fear. This is not the type of left i want to associate with. It has a real authoritarian bent which is antithetical to the libertarian left which used to be to the fore but which is now sadly playing second fiddle to the identity politics players and wannabe authoritarians. It is not too late to turn things around though. But for this to happen, liberty-loving leftists have to SPEAK UP. Which is what i hope happens.

    I worried about the left when there was a chance they'd actually get voted into power, back during the recession and the whole "All of the socialism, none of the taxes" nonsense that was floating around back then. But I was still fairly confident that common sense would prevail and for the most part it did.

    Now I worry about the right because they are getting voted into power. And with the naked and unbridled ignorance on display by Trump and Brexit among others, I have far less faith that common sense even exists in politics any more.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,237 ✭✭✭mcmoustache


    I worried about the left when there was a chance they'd actually get voted into power, back during the recession


    Same here. A lot of people were taking Pearse Doherty seriously. Sinn Féin went from around 5 seats to around 15 in the 2011 Dáil.



    The right weren't even on my radar back then.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Same here. A lot of people were taking Pearse Doherty seriously. Sinn Féin went from around 5 seats to around 15 in the 2011 Dáil.



    The right weren't even on my radar back then.

    Yet FG won, which Irish political right are you talking about?

    TBF, Fine Gael got the most votes based on their manifesto. I think that shows that the general public supported what was in that manifesto. And this was as close to being wiped out economically as we've ever been, so I wouldn't sweat any Marxist revolution despite little meaningful follow through and growing crises.




  • Yet FG won, which Irish political right are you talking about?

    TBF, Fine Gael got the most votes based on their manifesto. I think that shows that the general public supported what was in that manifesto. And this was as close to being wiped out economically as we've ever been, so I wouldn't sweat any Marxist revolution despite little meaningful follow through and growing crises.

    I would disagree with your last point. I feel that FG won the election, more down to the fact people did not want to vote FF, but were reluctant to vote in anyone else.

    I believe it was an expression of "better the Devil you know" rather than a general public support.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    I would disagree with your last point. I feel that FG won the election, more down to the fact people did not want to vote FF, but were reluctant to vote in anyone else.

    I believe it was an expression of "better the Devil you know" rather than a general public support.

    But that's all it ever is. It certainly wasn't a move to the left or a time when the right was ignored.
    I think had FG not released the manifesto they had they would have gotten even less votes.
    Not too dissimilar to the U.S., there's really only two big players.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭Gbear


    I did a double take when I read the title of the thread.

    At a time when the leader of the most powerful country in history is attacking the free press, freedom of speech, flouting the constitution and rule of law on a daily basis, threatening violence against those who don't support him, repeatedly attacking the checks and balances of his own government for attempting to enact basic oversight on his actions and is brown-nosing other fascists and wannabee fascists around the world while eschewing the US's traditional allies in democratic nations, it's actually some wet blankets on the left no platforming alt right grifters at universities that represent a clear and present danger to the fabric of western society.

    The likes of Steve Bannon are jetting around the world spreading a sort value-less, self-centered power-grab politics and it's sprouting up all over the place, with governments openly attacking independent judiciaries, enacting policies to suppress the freedoms of minority race, religion and gender groups, and engaging in systematic dehumanisation propaganda campaigns of the likes we've seen repeatedly lead to pogroms, apartheid, ethnic cleansing and genocide across the world.

    But no, it's actually some center-left policy about giving people the sort of functioning healthcare systems that are already in place in other developed countries that are going to rip the the world apart.

    It's incredible how the far right has managed to assign the label of identity politics to the left when IdPol is and has always been the totality of far right politics.

    It is the politics of isolating subpopulations unhappy at change or poor representation in government leading to focusing on acquiring their allegiances on the basis of their ethnic makeup, off the back of othering a soft minority target as the real cause of all their woes, and little else, to try and peddle policies that benefit a select group of grifters or psychopaths so they can line their own pockets or enact a completely insane policy platform.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 188 ✭✭Ultros


    Gbear wrote: »

    It's incredible how the far right has managed to assign the label of identity politics to the left when IdPol is and has always been the totality of far right politics.

    Sorry, but no. It's reality, and a pew research report from 2017 supports it. The "left" have gone hell bent on identity politics over the eight years Pres Obama got into office. You can type long spiels blaming others but it's meaningless when you look at the actual data. Republican polling hasn't shifted much at all. There's a big shift with distrust in media and that's it really.

    Before Obama got into office 28% of Democrats felt the main reason black people can't get ahead is because of discrimination, that number over those 8 years rose to 64% which is a 36 point jump, that is monumental.

    Xg7YJii.png

    In 2009 48% of Democrats said immigrants as a whole strengthen the country because of hard work and talent. That number at the end of 2016 was 84%. That's a 40 point jump.

    yEykSuk.png

    It's not the right wing pushing that there's 50 different genders and men should be allowed compete in Women's sport, that's the institutionalized left.

    Here's a simple question, why is it that when people like Ben Shapiro travel to California to speak the college needs to spend 600k on security with hundreds of security guards? I don't recall a single Liberal speaker being mounded by mobs and being shouted down as a Nazi ( ironically he's Jewish).

    The stuff being taught on in college's is identity politics on a whole other level. Fake degrees with fake Professors teaching faux content. Not only are they pushing the gender nonsense, they're also pushing rubbish like white privilege to the point that if you're a white person you're not allowed to speak. Whitey is evil!!

    Here's the Iowa Democratic leader running as DNC chair saying as much. Where's the Republic candidates running saying that people to shut up based on their skin colour? Telling people they need to shut up on the basic of their skin colour is racism, plain and simple.



    We could go on about affirmative action, and how the FAA in America hired less skill tower workers to fill racial quotes. Hiring some less skilled because they have a different skin colour is all types of wrong, especially in a highly sensitive job such as in an air traffic control tower, but that's exactly the thing that is going on in the work place, all the time.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/affirmative-action-lands-in-the-air-traffic-control-tower-1433283292

    The "neutral" New York times hires a known bigot like Sarah Jeong, we could talk about how every prominent high profile liberal from Hollywood constantly talks about race, race, race. Why is it that there's barely any conservatives in Hollywood and everyone pulls the same party line? They're afraid of the backlash, that's the honest answer.

    We could talk about the regressive third wave Feminist movement, or we could talk about how a far left ideological agenda is now encouraging Parents and schools to confuse literal toddlers about their sexuality or even impose sex changes on pre pubescent Children. We could talk about how the "Women's march" in the US is lead by extremists which include a murderer and terrorist.

    So there's many wonderful things to talk about, it's infinite in fact when it comes to the regressive left wing in the US with their regressive stance and in many cases especially academic, totalitarian agenda. Anyone who's even semi neutral knows it's true, but those stuck in the middle of it ( indoctrinated ) might not even see it. It was a huge issue in the 2016 election, the Clinton's entire platform was identity politics... "Vote for me, I'm a Woman".

    Jussie Smollet case is a perfect example of what's going on, he thought he'd make more money and become more famous if he was attacked by whites in the eyes of the liberals because of how hell bent identity politics has become in the US with the bullying power it holds. Think about it, a millionaire risked his entire livelihood to stage a fake hate crime because of how toxic identity politics is in the US.

    And another thing, the reason why the online troll armies became a thing in a political sphere was because it's a reactive counter movement to all the SJW stuff.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,704 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Ultros wrote: »
    It's not the right wing pushing that there's 50 different genders and men should be allowed compete in Women's sport, that's the institutionalized left.

    You get to a stage when you realise that fringes on both sides are the problem


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 188 ✭✭Ultros


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    You get to a stage when you realise that fringes on both sides are the problem

    My true worry is what's being taught as fact in certain college factions when it's my honest belief most of it is pure made up ideological búll****. The below link really showcases it. I think what's happening is totally dishonest and harming young people beyond repair and those engaging in such dishonesty for power and control are evil. Evil is a strong word but I think it's apt in this case. There's the oppressed and the oppressor, there isn't anything more. The notion or weight of individuality and self merit don't exist. Being indoctrinated into that worldview in my opinion is very dangerous. It spreads to the workplace, media and general culture. That's clearly been happening.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/04/arts/academic-journals-hoax.html

    I'll never argue that racism doesn't exist because only a fool would, and obviously strong Republican states will produce more of it than the cities and predominantly blue states. What I don't believe is that if someone works hard regardless of skin colour that they can't succeed. Martin Luther King didn't fight for identity politics, he fought for the individual and I feel like that point is long lost. Does institutional racism exist? I don't know. What I do know is that constantly yelling about race and dividing people based on their identity day in day out is never going to help anyone and ultimately only create a more divided Country in the US.

    Instances of individual racist acts need to be condemned and squashed, but it has to move past a point that racism is to blame for everything.


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