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Free public transport

1356

Comments

  • #62
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,222 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    cgcsb wrote: »
    If you have a car and free work place parking, you'll drive, no matter what PT is on offer.
    somewhat strongly stated, no? i know several people who take PT even though they've a car and free parking, me included. i did it for years.


  • #63
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,262 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    somewhat strongly stated, no? i know several people who take PT even though they've a car and free parking, me included. i did it for years.

    I could drive also, but I cycle every day. But the general case remains.


  • #64
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Free public transport is a waste of money. The money spent making public transport free would be better spent on improving public transport. It is not going to take people out of their car or af least enough to make a difference on carbon emissions. What will work is Metrolink, Dart Underground and Expansion and Bus Connects. It would probably cost a few billion to do think about how that money could be better on public transport.


  • #65
    Squatter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,841 ✭✭✭Squatter


    newirishman wrote: »
    There is no capacity left at rush hours in Dublin’s public transport system, as anyone knows how still dares to use it. The system is overall well crap.

    What exactly is the “free”public transport going to solve?


    Same as "free" water - the gobsh1tes, parasites and freeloaders will rejoice and the more responsible citizens will thrust their heads even more deeply into their hands.

    head-in-hands2a_opt.jpg


  • #66
    LionelNashe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,961 ✭✭✭LionelNashe


    What we could do is pick one commuter corridor where there’s a lot of congestion at the moment, and trial free public transport on it for 12 months. Because it’s only one corridor, it should be possible to lay on the extra capacity that’s needed. The psychological impact of paying nothing for your commute for a year would make a lot of people switch immediately. A downside is that the wealthy individuals who wouldn’t even notice the cost of fuelling and driving their big cars, and wouldn’t switch, would benefit the most by everyone else’s actions.


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  • #67
    Red Silurian
    Registered Users Posts: 8,308 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    If we make public transport free at rush hour only (the times when people are going to/from work) that would take a lot of cars off the road, other public transport users, such as tourists etc, would still pay the standard fare


  • #68
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    colmtheperson wrote: »
    If we make public transport free at rush hour only (the times when people are going to/from work) that would take a lot of cars off the road, other public transport users, such as tourists etc, would still pay the standard fare

    The people who it will push on to public transport would be people who walk and cycle not people who drive so people who live near where they work. That would likely mean full buses and trains for people travelling longer distances as the bus or train will be full of people only going 3 or 4 stops on a bus or 1 or 2 stops on the Luas or the DART.

    I noticed this when they make the child leap card free over the summer lot's of kids getting on the bus but only going a short distance that they would probably walk if the bus wasn't free.


  • #69
    Varta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 517 ✭✭✭Varta


    In twenty years time most commuters in Dublin will be using public transport, like it or not. At that point the widened roads that they are planning to tear up the city to create won't be necessary. So, instead of wasting millions creating these concrete and tarmac city highways, we should put the money into creating free public transport.


  • #70
    sharper
    Registered Users Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    Varta wrote: »
    In twenty years time most commuters in Dublin will be using public transport, like it or not. At that point the widened roads that they are planning to tear up the city to create won't be necessary. So, instead of wasting millions creating these concrete and tarmac city highways, we should put the money into creating free public transport.

    The first thing you need to do before you create more demand for public transport is to create a gap between current capacity and current usage. Improvements to road infrastructure are needed to create capacity.


  • #71
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,582 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Varta wrote: »
    In twenty years time most commuters in Dublin will be using public transport, like it or not. At that point the widened roads that they are planning to tear up the city to create won't be necessary. So, instead of wasting millions creating these concrete and tarmac city highways, we should put the money into creating free public transport.

    It won't cost millions. It will cost billions.


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  • #72
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    devnull wrote: »
    It won't cost millions. It will cost billions.

    So will the EU carbon and air quality fines.


  • #73
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,822 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Varta wrote: »
    In twenty years time most commuters in Dublin will be using public transport, like it or not. At that point the widened roads that they are planning to tear up the city to create won't be necessary.

    You still need a bus lane, a general lane, a cycle lane and a footpath in each direction

    What Dublin desperately needs is a metro system - not half a line to be built "sometime, maybe" - but instead the vital national infrastructural necessity of giving bachelor farmers better access to Pornhub gets priority. You couldn't make it up.

    Life ain't always empty.



  • #74
    Varta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 517 ✭✭✭Varta


    Agree on the metro but I don't see why separate lanes will be required. People need to open their eyes, in twenty years time or possibly way sooner there will be precious few cars making regular journeys into the city. It has to happen and it will happen, so let's just speed it up with free public transport, start in earnest on a metro and forget about widening roads that we won't require.


  • #75
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,822 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    The alternative is to keep the roads the same and introduce heavy congestion charging.

    Bus journey times are too slow and unpredictable because of private cars. That is the problem, not fares.

    Life ain't always empty.



  • #76
    sharper
    Registered Users Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    Varta wrote: »
    Agree on the metro but I don't see why separate lanes will be required. People need to open their eyes, in twenty years time or possibly way sooner there will be precious few cars making regular journeys into the city. It has to happen and it will happen, so let's just speed it up with free public transport, start in earnest on a metro and forget about widening roads that we won't require.

    I'm really confused here. Public transport (today) is at max capacity during peak times. How does making it free help anything? How do we improve capacity without work on the roads that public transport uses?


  • #77
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,582 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    The alternative is to keep the roads the same and introduce heavy congestion charging.

    Bus journey times are too slow and unpredictable because of private cars. That is the problem, not fares.

    Dwell time is a major problem though, more than traffic a lot of the time, and full use of two doors and removal of driver interaction would mean buses spent seconds waiting at busy stops and not minutes.


  • #78
    Varta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 517 ✭✭✭Varta


    But if there were no fares more people would use public transport. Congestion charges may not be necessary with free public transport and bus priority. At the moment there are many situations whereby a bus must yield to traffic to get back into the flow. Buses should always have priority and traffic should yield. It would require nothing more than a rule change. As I said, a near car-free city is inevitable, especially at peak times, so people are going to have to adapt whether they like it or not.


  • #79
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,222 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    sharper wrote: »
    I'm really confused here. Public transport (today) is at max capacity during peak times. How does making it free help anything? How do we improve capacity without work on the roads that public transport uses?
    obviously there's going to be an interplay between passenger load, and congestion/dwell time issues, but say for example free travel *was* a success at enticing more people onto the buses.
    general congestion could ease due to fewer car drivers, and dwell time might also ease. so if (and it's a big if; the interplay between all the factors is hellishly complex, i suspect) you got 10% more people onto the buses, but the buses were able to move 15% faster between the terminuses, you could see the passenger capacity increase.


  • #80
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    devnull wrote: »
    It won't cost millions. It will cost billions.

    Exactly and those billions could be much better spent on making actual improvements to public transport which would entice far more people out of cars and onto to public transport than making public transport free would. Free public transport doesn't mean good quality and I would gladly pay for good quality public transport.


  • #81
    sharper
    Registered Users Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    obviously there's going to be an interplay between passenger load, and congestion/dwell time issues, but say for example free travel *was* a success at enticing more people onto the buses.
    general congestion could ease due to fewer car drivers, and dwell time might also ease. so if (and it's a big if; the interplay between all the factors is hellishly complex, i suspect) you got 10% more people onto the buses, but the buses were able to move 15% faster between the terminuses, you could see the passenger capacity increase.

    I agree the interplay is complex but if you consider a bus running length of 60 minutes it would have to be one hell of a saving to translate into even a single extra journey during the peak period.

    It might well get people where they want to go faster but it won't get more people there.


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  • #82
    Varta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 517 ✭✭✭Varta


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Exactly and those billions could be much better spent on making actual improvements to public transport which would entice far more people out of cars and onto to public transport than making public transport free would. Free public transport doesn't mean good quality and I would gladly pay for good quality public transport.

    Why not both? Improved service and free! Free public transport isn't about saving passengers money, it's about making things simpler and easier, and enticing people out of their cars. No fiddling about with cards/money/whatever and no telling the driver where you are going. All of that slows the transport down quite a bit. And as for paying for it, just think of all the money we wouldn't be sending abroad to buy cars and oil. One thing I find interesting is where I used to have discussions with people about public versus private transport, now it's always about how can we make public transport better. Change is coming.


  • #83
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Varta wrote: »
    Why not both? Improved service and free! Free public transport isn't about saving passengers money, it's about making things simpler and easier, and enticing people out of their cars. No fiddling about with cards/money/whatever and no telling the driver where you are going. All of that slows the transport down quite a bit. And as for paying for it, just think of all the money we wouldn't be sending abroad to buy cars and oil. One thing I find interesting is where I used to have discussions with people about public versus private transport, now it's always about how can we make public transport better. Change is coming.

    Well we have a lot of work to do getting public transport up to scratch before we can start looking at making it FOC.


  • #84
    howiya
    Registered Users Posts: 3,212 ✭✭✭howiya


    Fares should be frozen or reduced but not free.

    2011’s €1.60 fare is now €2.25. 40% increase in less than 8 years.

    And it will increase again this year to bring the €2.25 and €2.50 fares into the one fare.


  • #85
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,582 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    howiya wrote: »
    Fares should be frozen or reduced but not free.

    2011’s €1.60 fare is now €2.25. 40% increase in less than 8 years.

    And it will increase again this year to bring the €2.25 and €2.50 fares into the one fare.

    I could also hand pick a figure and a timeframe to show that fares have come down in the last few years as well - there are winners and losers for the fare changes in general.


  • #86
    howiya
    Registered Users Posts: 3,212 ✭✭✭howiya


    devnull wrote: »
    I could also hand pick a figure and a timeframe to show that fares have come down in the last few years as well - there are winners and losers for the fare changes in general.

    What Dublin Bus fare has decreased over the same time period?

    Had a quick look myself. The only Dublin Bus fares that decreased over the same period are the outer suburban fares. So far more losers than winners.


  • #87
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,582 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    howiya wrote: »
    What Dublin Bus fare has decreased over the same time period?

    Re-read my post, I never said the same time period, I said over a period of a few years.

    As the NTA have been simplifying the fare system in the last few years, to do this gradually to avoid hitting farebox revenue, they've been increasing the fare you describe whilst also reducing the fare above it which will continue in the next lot when I would say both fares will be merged together. That is what they did with the child fare over a couple of years to the point where it is now flat rate.

    Unfortunately if you are going to merge fare bands then some peoples price will go up and some peoples price will go down, that's just the way it will always be but the maximum price anyone has to pay for a single journey coming down is very much a good thing if you ask me.


  • #88
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,304 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    You still need a bus lane, a general lane, a cycle lane and a footpath in each direction

    .

    Oh Jaysus don't forget the feckin trees.

    But if you have to squeeze out one of the above, the general lane with all the 80% empty cars would be a good starting point.


  • #89
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    howiya wrote: »
    Fares should be frozen or reduced but not free.

    2011’s €1.60 fare is now €2.25. 40% increase in less than 8 years.

    And it will increase again this year to bring the €2.25 and €2.50 fares into the one fare.

    The €2.25 was divided into a 4-7 stage fare which was €1.60 and a 8-13 stage fare which was €1.80 so you are somewhat incorrect in saying that what was €1.60 in 2011 is now €2.25.

    The fare increase for some paying the €2.25 fare is the price that is paid for the convience of removing a large amount of the driver interaction that currently exists reducing dwell times and hence journey times. But then again I would like to see a €2 flat fare being introduced across the board.


  • #90
    howiya
    Registered Users Posts: 3,212 ✭✭✭howiya


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    The €2.25 was divided into a 4-7 stage fare which was €1.60 and a 8-13 stage fare which was €1.80 so you are somewhat incorrect in saying that what was €1.60 in 2011 is now €2.25.

    The fare increase for some paying the €2.25 fare is the price that is paid for the convience of removing a large amount of the driver interaction that currently exists reducing dwell times and hence journey times. But then again I would like to see a €2 flat fare being introduced across the board.

    I’ll rephrase it for you. My journey is 6 stages so I’m not incorrect. I’m comparing the price of the same journey.

    Increasing the fare to €2.25 hasn’t made any difference to dwell time. You still need to interact with the driver, the same as you did when the fare was €2.15. Most people getting on in my area interact with the driver.

    I think a €2 flat fare is reasonable. As I said in my first post I said fares should be reduced or frozen. I’d be happy with fares not increasing any further.


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  • #91
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    howiya wrote: »
    I’ll rephrase it for you. My journey is 6 stages so I’m not incorrect. I’m comparing the price of the same journey.

    Increasing the fare to €2.25 hasn’t made any difference to dwell time. You still need to interact with the driver, the same as you did when the fare was €2.15. Most people getting on in my area interact with the driver.

    I think a €2 flat fare is reasonable. As I said in my first post I said fares should be reduced or frozen. I’d be happy with fares not increasing any further.

    That's why I said you were somewhat incorrect not fully incorrect. Also I was referring to the €2.50 and €2.25 fare bands are merged as a flat fare which will make a difference to dwell times as all validation will be done on the right hand validator not the the 2018 fare revisions when the 2.15 fare was increased to 2.25.

    Fares have actually remained relatively stagnant since Leap has been introduced especially the 13+ stage fare band apart from the fares which have been merged into the same band over over the years. This I will admit has more so benefitted people making longer journies by bus as these fares have remained more or less the same as they were back in 2012.


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