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The Last of Us 2 - SPOILERS!!!

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    #122
    Aliya Greasy Rumor
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Aliya Greasy Rumor


    The fan in me is hoping for some joel and tommy content but that doesn't look likely


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    #123
    gimli2112
    Registered Users Posts: 13,407 ✭✭✭✭gimli2112


    Reading the metacritic user reviews are gas. Some of them clearly haven't 'played the game and are just posting 10s or zeros.

    Positive
    Amazing game. The graphics are breathtaking, the gameplay is great and every character is just lovable. Naughty Dog has done it again.

    A lot of them have the bolded bit in the review.

    Negative
    Let me break this down for you quickly: PANDERING has negatively infected gaming culture and the Last of Us 2 is the quintessential example of it.
    However the sound, game-play and the game's overall fun factor is connected to the story Naughty Dog has written, thus it suffers immensely for it. 1/10

    This one has more words in it than the bible (I just quoted the opening and closing lines) but the big problem with the game is pandering apparently.

    Have to say I'm agreeing with the negative a lot more than the positive but I still think it's a good game. The story just killed me.


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    #124
    Aliya Greasy Rumor
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Aliya Greasy Rumor


    I've yet to fill in how I feel about it all. But I understand why it's so divisive

    I actually deleted an earlier post as I got conflicted as I posted it!

    There are some credible criticisms on Both sides of the arguments once you wade through some of the nonsense

    The thing about it is I've completed it a couple of days ago and I still can't stop thinking about the game

    That's powerful regardless and not many a game or movie I have experienced has done it before

    I was one of the lucky ones to avoid all the spoilers and went in blind

    It's too soon really to give a synopsis tbh. Need to mull over it some more.

    I think a really too to see if I missed some plot points


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    #125
    gimli2112
    Registered Users Posts: 13,407 ✭✭✭✭gimli2112


    I'm really struggling on the second play through.

    First run was a lot more enjoyable and while that's understandable I loved replaying the original and on different difficulty settings. I agree I can't get it out of my head but not sure that's a good thing.

    I (for some unknown reason) woke up at 2am Sunday morning, got up and finished it. I was like a zombie all day.


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    #126
    Aliya Greasy Rumor
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Aliya Greasy Rumor


    Did anyone realise Abby was
    bitten
    by Ellie or was I imaging it?

    I only remembered now...I think

    Is she immune?


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    #127
    gimli2112
    Registered Users Posts: 13,407 ✭✭✭✭gimli2112


    yeah I was reading that on the TLOU subreddit. A plot hole it would seem as Ellie bit the mad cannibal (Richard?) in the first one telling him he was infected now too.

    I have a feeling she bit her in the first fight in the movie theatre.


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    #128
    Aliya Greasy Rumor
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Aliya Greasy Rumor


    gimli2112 wrote: »
    yeah I was reading that on the TLOU subreddit. A plot hole it would seem as Ellie bit the mad cannibal (Richard?) in the first one telling him he was infected now too.

    I have a feeling she bit her in the first fight in the movie theatre.

    I actually could see this being some form of driver for a part 3 tbh


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    #129
    gimli2112
    Registered Users Posts: 13,407 ✭✭✭✭gimli2112


    Part 3 for me starts with Ellie waking up and 2 was just a bad dream. There's a petition in reddit for ND to change the story. Had over 50,000 signatures last I saw.


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    #130
    Aliya Greasy Rumor
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Aliya Greasy Rumor


    gimli2112 wrote: »
    Part 3 for me starts with Ellie waking up and 2 was just a bad dream. There's a petition in reddit for ND to change the story. Had over 50,000 signatures last I saw.

    Petitions like this are weird imo

    Like I mean regardless if you like or dislike something knowbody should be forced to change the vision they went ahead with


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    #131
    Markitron
    Registered Users Posts: 3,157 ✭✭✭Markitron


    Thought the ending was perfect, when she tries to play Pearl Jam at the end but can't because of her missing fingers, amazing. Last shot was so nice as well.


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    #132
    gimli2112
    Registered Users Posts: 13,407 ✭✭✭✭gimli2112


    Watched Upper Echelon Games' review this morning and he eviscerates the story and ND choices both here and with the marketing. Has there ever been such a divisive game?
    I'm a mega nerd fanboy of the first which puts me in a difficult position with it.


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    #133
    Aliya Greasy Rumor
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Aliya Greasy Rumor


    gimli2112 wrote: »
    Watched Upper Echelon Games' review this morning and he eviscerates the story and ND choices both here and with the marketing. Has there ever been such a divisive game?
    I'm a mega nerd fanboy of the first which puts me in a difficult position with it.

    Alot of folks are in this position

    Masking such a bait and switch in the game was probably part of the struggle here, you can claim it was deceptive and that's fine but it really does sound like it wasn't an afterthought. It was as per design from day 1 IMO

    The leaks caused turmoil to that plan

    As I have been mulling it over it's starting to come together for me

    The bait and switch reminds me of MGS2 in certain aspects. But was easier to mask that as mass internet media / coverage / leaks was not a thing back then.

    I remember being absolutely raging about that initially and so were alot of the MGS fanbase. Now I love it and why it was done.


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    #134
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,226 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    gimli2112 wrote: »
    yeah I was reading that on the TLOU subreddit. A plot hole it would seem as Ellie bit the mad cannibal (Richard?) in the first one telling him he was infected now too.

    I have a feeling she bit her in the first fight in the movie theatre.

    I doubt Ellie can pass on the infection like that. Otherwise you'd imagine even kissing would pass it on too. I'd say she was just telling the cannibal (David) that he was now infected just to distract him so she could try to escape as she wouldn't know herself at that stage whether she could infect people anyway.


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    #135
    gimli2112
    Registered Users Posts: 13,407 ✭✭✭✭gimli2112


    The MGS2 analogy is a good one. I remember people being murderous at the time that you had to play as Raiden who was widely despised as a result.
    I think TLOU2 goes a lot further in terms of taking apart the legacy of the first one. The further I get from it the less I'm liking it, its like my brain is slowly being infected by a mushroom.
    I think ND achieved exactly what they set out to do and that's fine and in a way admirable but it doesn't mean I have to like it. I also don't like some of the tools they used to achieve it.
    I do agree with Echelon Games summary, that it's an exercise in making the player miserable


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    #136
    Markitron
    Registered Users Posts: 3,157 ✭✭✭Markitron


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Alot of folks are in this position

    Masking such a bait and switch in the game was probably part of the struggle here, you can claim it was deceptive and that's fine but it really does sound like it wasn't an afterthought. It was as per design from day 1 IMO

    The leaks caused turmoil to that plan

    As I have been mulling it over it's starting to come together for me

    The bait and switch reminds me of MGS2 in certain aspects. But was easier to mask that as mass internet media / coverage / leaks was not a thing back then.

    I remember being absolutely raging about that initially and so were alot of the MGS fanbase. Now I love it and why it was done.

    I actually don't really consider it a bait and switch at all, you spend about 15-16 hours playing as Ellie, it is her story and it starts and ends with her. Abby's story is there to add context.

    MGS2 was a prologue as Snake and the whole game as Raiden, it was his story. I really don't think they are comparable at all beyond the superficial.


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    #137
    Aliya Greasy Rumor
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Aliya Greasy Rumor


    Markitron wrote: »
    I actually don't really consider it a bait and switch at all, you spend about 15-16 hours playing as Ellie, it is her story and it starts and ends with her. Abby's story is there to add context.

    MGS2 was a prologue as Snake and the whole game as Raiden, it was his story. I really don't think they are comparable at all beyond the superficial.

    I am only referencing the spoiler masking aspects.

    I don't have an issue with playing either character personally.


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    #138
    Markitron
    Registered Users Posts: 3,157 ✭✭✭Markitron


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I am only referencing the spoiler masking aspects.

    I don't have an issue with playing either character personally.

    Fair nuff!

    I am probably just projecting, I only finished it last night but I kept seeing this comparison, which I really don't think is apt at all.


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    #139
    johnny_ultimate
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,094 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    Just in pure gameplay terms, I really like how discernibly different Abby and Ellie are to play as. The basic gameplay doesn’t shift much at all, but Abby feels so much more capable with weapons in particular - even the fact her rifle feels like a proper, professional piece of kit makes perfect sense given her setup in life compared to Ellie’s more ramshackle, clunky toolset. Always like to see character and personality expressed through mechanics, and this is a fine, effective example of that,


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    #140
    SureYWouldntYa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,724 ✭✭✭SureYWouldntYa


    Yet the one in a functioning military hasnt access to a proper knife like Ellie does, and you cant always stealth clickers and have to craft shivs

    Did up the difficulty for her parts of the game which isnt necessarily a bad thing, was just a bit redundant and annoying


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    #141
    The Raging Bile Duct
    Registered Users Posts: 2,083 ✭✭✭The Raging Bile Duct


    gimli2112 wrote: »
    Part 3 for me starts with Ellie waking up and 2 was just a bad dream. There's a petition in reddit for ND to change the story. Had over 50,000 signatures last I saw.

    50,000 man babies out there I see.


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    #142
    The Raging Bile Duct
    Registered Users Posts: 2,083 ✭✭✭The Raging Bile Duct


    gimli2112 wrote: »
    Watched Upper Echelon Games' review this morning and he eviscerates the story and ND choices both here and with the marketing. Has there ever been such a divisive game?
    I'm a mega nerd fanboy of the first which puts me in a difficult position with it.

    I made it five minutes into that video before giving up.

    What's the difficult position that you're in?


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    #143
    The Raging Bile Duct
    Registered Users Posts: 2,083 ✭✭✭The Raging Bile Duct


    I really enjoyed both sides of the story. It's far from perfect but it was ambitious and not afraid to mess with player's expectations and discomfiture at certain situations. I thought all the strands tired together much better than they did in the original and I liked how they dealt with the two new factions we meet in Seattle. The game is overlong and there's parts where making your way through a load of enemies can get tiresome but don't of the set pieces really make up for it. One of the earliest ones in the red lit subway had the hairs standing up on the back of my neck.

    As for the ending being too sad? Oh, come on... with the way they set up the rest of the game, it wasn't going to go out on a happy, clappy note and if it had, it would have been completely disingenuous. Hearing about that sad sack petition and all the angry YouTube videos about what way the characters should have actually acted according to their beliefs makes me wonder what would have happened if something like the Empire Strikes Back was to be released now.


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    #144
    Zero-Cool
    Registered Users Posts: 29,480 ✭✭✭✭Zero-Cool


    Loved it. ****ing loved it. Loved Ellie and Abby equally and how ND brought the 2 together, relieved both survived the story.

    I had read a spoiler that Abby was trans and the surgeon Joel killed was the only one who could do her op. Also at some point, she corrects someone and says she's 'm'aam'. Were people that insecure about a muscly woman? I thought her character and build were really interesting and they never made a huge deal about it in game. Not once did i think "****ing neil trying to make me woke". Feel sad for anyone who got upset about Abby or Lev.

    Story was perfect for me but I'll need to digest it and give it another playthrough.

    Whatever people feel about how Joel was treated, the museum flashback was a fitting tribute as any.


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    #145
    gimli2112
    Registered Users Posts: 13,407 ✭✭✭✭gimli2112


    The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »
    I made it five minutes into that video before giving up.

    What's the difficult position that you're in?

    I am coming to the conclusion I don't like the game, particulalry as I trudge towards the platinum. This is difficult for me as the first one was one of my favourites. Fair enough this may be a large part of the problem but it's not changing the fact I don't like 2.
    My opinion (and it's only an opinion) is the story is absolute thrash. It makes no sense on various levels. The dual revenge scenarios, fine but the fact Ellie gets a reasonable outcome, is relatively happy and sets off on a third revenge trip is jarring. Not only that but after going through hell to find Abby saves her, changes her mind again and fights to the death, changes her mind again and lets her live.

    The false marketing, specifically making Joel younger in clips grates on me.

    The simple tricks they use to make you feel empathy with Abby. Playing with her dog twice, a dog Ellie kills in a brutal fashion. Saving the fcuking Zebra. Abby good Ellie bad.

    I thought all the outrage was down to neanderthals who had a problem with LBGT issues, misogynists or some other equally less appealing group to be in. I do think a lot of this has been carefully orchestrated by ND and their supporters to detract from some very valid criticisms of the game.

    My main problem is I just felt bad after completing it, like really down and deflated. I don't need this from my videogames I have work for this. I also don't like change I would have been quite happy with a continuation of the first one here and think the flashbacks with Joel and Ellie are absolutely fantastic.

    I understand people like the story, I have read the thread here and see people enjoy different things. This is fine, it's just not me. I've since read a bit about Druckmann and quite like him. I liked how his own daughter was born during the making of TLOU and this influenced him a lot. I know he's a creative guy and good storyteller but he missed the mark with this one for me.


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    #146
    Markitron
    Registered Users Posts: 3,157 ✭✭✭Markitron


    gimli2112 wrote: »
    It makes no sense on various levels. The dual revenge scenarios, fine but the fact Ellie gets a reasonable outcome, is relatively happy and sets off on a third revenge trip is jarring. Not only that but after going through hell to find Abby saves her, changes her mind again and fights to the death, changes her mind again and lets her live.

    This made perfect sense to me. When she returned home to her life with Dina she clearly had PTSD and thought killing Abby would end it and allow her some peace, that is why she left. When she cut Abby down it was with the sole purpose of fighting her to the death. She was obviously conflicted and the flashback of Joel's beaten face pushed her over the edge and they fight. Just before Abby drowns she has the flashback of her last conversation with Joel which was all about trying to forgive, this is why she doesn't kill Abby.


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    #147
    gimli2112
    Registered Users Posts: 13,407 ✭✭✭✭gimli2112


    Druckmann called on his own experiences with violence when writing this, according to Wiki. He wanted the player to experience the thirst for revenge before finally realising the consequences of their actions. He was aware some on the team didn't like what he was doing here and how he was going about it.

    My problem is I can't relate to the procrastination, the back and forth of will I won't I. I have to feel if I'd made the decision to go down this path, endured all Ellie did to get there I wouldn't change my mind, at the last second due to a sudden flashback. It just makes no sense to me. After finding her why cut her down? Just stab her if that's the intention.

    Of course I'm royally pissed off that Ellie and Joel got caught in the middle of all this but that's just another issue. I think I've always not liked the story it's just I'm coming to appreciate by how much.


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    #148
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,226 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Markitron wrote: »
    This made perfect sense to me. When she returned home to her life with Dina she clearly had PTSD and thought killing Abby would end it and allow her some peace, that is why she left. When she cut Abby down it was with the sole purpose of fighting her to the death. She was obviously conflicted and the flashback of Joel's beaten face pushed her over the edge and they fight. Just before Abby drowns she has the flashback of her last conversation with Joel which was all about trying to forgive, this is why she doesn't kill Abby.

    I'd also add in that imo, part of what drove Ellie to go after Abby again even though Abby showed she was able to walk away and move on was the fact Ellie and Joel still hadn't made up and she still hadn't forgiven him. The ice was thawing between them and she wanted to be able to forgive him, but Abby stole her chance of ever being able to get there. So Ellie's thirst for revenge is as much driven by the fact she had pushed Joel away and never got to reconcile with him.

    This is a good video about the overall story too
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmivMh8Dpug


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    #149
    Kirby
    Registered Users Posts: 13,084 ✭✭✭✭Kirby


    Penn wrote: »
    I doubt Ellie can pass on the infection like that. Otherwise you'd imagine even kissing would pass it on too. I'd say she was just telling the cannibal (David) that he was now infected just to distract him so she could try to escape as she wouldn't know herself at that stage whether she could infect people anyway.

    She didn't know. She told David he was infected because she thought he was.

    If you read her Journal, it talks of her first kiss with a girl named Kat and how she was terrified she had passed the infection on to her. She stayed awake all night checking on her and then realized she couldn't pass it on.

    Thats why she knows she can't pass it on to Dina....and tells her so in the theatre. So biting Abby would be no different. She can't pass it on.
    gimli2112 wrote: »
    The MGS2 analogy is a good one.

    Druckman has stated that MSG2 was his favourite game.....so the twist is likely an homage to that. The thing he found annoying was that you didn't play as snake at the end which is likely why you play as Ellie during Santa Barbara at the end.


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    #150
    Kirby
    Registered Users Posts: 13,084 ✭✭✭✭Kirby


    On my second playthrough and I'm noticing a few things I missed. Notably in the museum section. I found a wooden pallet like from the first game and Ellie asks Joel to give her a ride on it. He tells her those days are long over. Gotta love self referential humour. :P

    20200701-091912.jpg


    Also, remember this guy?

    20200701-091926.jpg


    You can climb him!

    Welcome......to Joelrassic Park! :P

    20200701-091945.jpg

    I'm sure there are more touches like that I missed the first time through. Doing it on Survival+ difficulty and finding its not as daunting as I assumed it would be. Going for the platinum. :)


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    #151
    gimli2112
    Registered Users Posts: 13,407 ✭✭✭✭gimli2112


    Found that pallet on my second run too.
    I didn't think I'd spend ages pulling faces in the mirror second time round, I was wrong!


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