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NFL Protest Discussion

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  • 27-05-2018 9:34pm
    #1
    helimachoptor
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 21,640 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Please use this for discussion on the anthem protests.


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    #2
    j8wk2feszrnpao
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,438 ✭✭✭j8wk2feszrnpao


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    Many of those who are most vocal about being 'insulted' by these protests are the same who throw around terms like 'snowflake' when it suits them. The hypocrisy is quite funny especially when you add in all the other 'disrespect' to the flag/anthem that occurs on a regular basis and they ignore.

    Protests aren't meant to make people feel comfortable and I don't believe those who feign to be offended are who they wanted to reach with this protest anyway. Despite the attempts to muddy the waters this protest has brought huge awareness to the topic which is unlikely to be replicated if it took another form.
    I agree with everything but this. The topic has gotten lost behind the discussion about the flag/anthem. And the new policy (a load of crap) will be debated ahead of it as well.


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    #3
    helimachoptor
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 21,640 Mod ✭✭✭✭helimachoptor


    Rumours some players will sit our the season until Kap/Eric Reid get signed.
    A rumour Titans Rishard Matthews is one of those players


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    #4
    Joe Dog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 138 ✭✭Joe Dog


    helimachoptor wrote: »
    Rumours some players will sit our the season until Kap/Eric Reid get signed.
    A rumour Titans Rishard Matthews is one of those players

    Won't make any difference.

    Unfortunately for the players apart from a very tiny minority of star players NFL players are extremely dispensable and have almost no leverage to work with.


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    #5
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,263 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    munstermagic11 wrote: »
    I agree with everything but this. The topic has gotten lost behind the discussion about the flag/anthem. And the new policy (a load of crap) will be debated ahead of it as well.

    It is obfuscation and deliberate misunderstanding though. No matter what they did there would be ways found to either twist it against them or ignore it.

    This is not exactly a unique situation and previous incarnations of it have followed a depressingly familiar route. I still have little doubt that history will look a hell of a lot more favourably on Kap than anyone else in this mess.


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    #6
    Joe Dog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 138 ✭✭Joe Dog


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    It is obfuscation and deliberate misunderstanding though. No matter what they did there would be ways found to either twist it against them or ignore it.

    This is not exactly a unique situation and previous incarnations of it have followed a depressingly familiar route. I still have little doubt that history will look a hell of a lot more favourably on Kap than anyone else in this mess.

    You have no real entitlement to a right to protest about social issues while at work.I'm all for the players making a stand but they (or anyone else) have no right to do it during their jobs and that is something they need to accept and they could do a much better job of doing something about the issue if they just gave up on the in game protest and used their profile that the game gives them to arrange public protests outside of the NFL.

    If someone in a normal job would probably be dismissed or not have your contract renewed for not doing what their employer told them to do at work regardless of whether you were right or not, he who pays the piper calls the tune.

    Fact is a very large proportion of fans do not want any protests, the owners don't want it and it takes away from the product because too much NFL talk in the last while has been about stuff other than football which cannot help the sport.People in general don't tend to like their recreation time being taken over by having to deal with serious issues during it.I certainly wouldn't like to have liked to listen to a debate on the 8th amendment as part of RTE's GAA coverage.

    The issue has been handled dreadfully by the NFL and they should allow the players to protest if they want as they aren't doing any harm to anyone but the protesting the anthem allows people to not listen and claim the players are disrespectful to the anthem, do something less controversial (in the eyes of some people) and you can't close your eyes and ears and claim they are doing something disrespectful.

    In reality people don't really have a right to free speech and free expression at work whether people want to accept that or not .


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    #7
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,120 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    This decision would honestly make me think about whether to engage with Fantasy Football next year. I probably don't want to be investing my time and money into a racist organisation. And, as an Irish person, I can ignore the NFL very very easily. I'd miss it, but it's getting harder and harder to square the treatment of players for the enrichment of old white owners with my entertainment.

    It's very depressing all round.


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    #8
    KrustyUCC
    Registered Users Posts: 6,032 ✭✭✭KrustyUCC


    helimachoptor wrote: »
    Rumours some players will sit our the season until Kap/Eric Reid get signed.
    A rumour Titans Rishard Matthews is one of those players

    Good luck with that

    They might have a chance of getting a select few to sit out a portion of the season

    Getting 25% of the players is pie in the sky thinking


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    #9
    helimachoptor
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 21,640 Mod ✭✭✭✭helimachoptor


    yeah agree. Teams will move on quickly.

    Matthews is a good receiver for the Titans, but he's hardly game breaker


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    #10
    KrustyUCC
    Registered Users Posts: 6,032 ✭✭✭KrustyUCC


    You would need far more high profile players to sit out to get any traction at all


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    #11
    j8wk2feszrnpao
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,438 ✭✭✭j8wk2feszrnpao


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    No matter what they did there would be ways found to either twist it against them or ignore it.
    Maybe, but not to this extent; they turned possible supporters away.

    The new directive is a load of crap IMO. They need to start cutting ties with political orgs like the military before focusing on the protest. But, one brings in $$$ and the other threatens $$$ loss.


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    #12
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,006 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    'Possible' supporters, as in the similar sort of 'possible' chance of me starting in the NFL this season. The same people who are screaming how they are offended by this are those who started shouting 'what about all lives matter?' during the black lives matter protests.

    You either believe that there is police brutality and racial inequality or you don't. You don't suddenly change your mind and don't support it because someone kneels during an anthem. It is an excuse to hide your disagreement with it or try to shift the subject. It is cowardly but what people do when they are on the wrong side of an issue.


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    #13
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,263 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Joe Dog wrote: »
    You have no real entitlement to a right to protest about social issues while at work.I'm all for the players making a stand but they (or anyone else) have no right to do it during their jobs and that is something they need to accept and they could do a much better job of doing something about the issue if they just gave up on the in game protest and used their profile that the game gives them to arrange public protests outside of the NFL.

    I would have an easier time accepting that argument if the NFL was not already so overtly political in embracing fake patriotism and militaristic traditions. They have an entire month dedicated to the military because it helps their marketing.

    The idea of not bringing politics into sport died a long time ago - the organisations already brought it in. What is happening now is that the players are bringing in politics that the organisation doesn't like and are attempting to crush it.

    Also, this idea of people using their profile to do things outside the game has been repeatedly raised. Many of the players already do that and will continue to do that. Nobody cares though because it is something that is easy to ignore. The entire point of this protest if that you have to force people to see you are protesting and hope that they question why. The idea that you should drop a protest because there is backlash is absurd - not a single "movement" in history started as being universally popular. Otherwise it wouldn't be needed.


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    #14
    Joe Dog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 138 ✭✭Joe Dog


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    I would have an easier time accepting that argument if the NFL was not already so overtly political in embracing fake patriotism and militaristic traditions. They have an entire month dedicated to the military because it helps their marketing.

    The idea of not bringing politics into sport died a long time ago - the organisations already brought it in. What is happening now is that the players are bringing in politics that the organisation doesn't like and are attempting to crush it.

    Also, this idea of people using their profile to do things outside the game has been repeatedly raised. Many of the players already do that and will continue to do that. Nobody cares though because it is something that is easy to ignore. The entire point of this protest if that you have to force people to see you are protesting and hope that they question why. The idea that you should drop a protest because there is backlash is absurd - not a single "movement" in history started as being universally popular. Otherwise it wouldn't be needed.


    You can't force people to see this though.Any time I watch PTI or Around the Horn on ESPN and something about the anthem protests comes up , I fast forward the programme until they get back to talking about actual sport, anytime I hear discussion in the pre game shows about these type of issues I fast forward past it.

    The NFL is massively hypocritical I don't disagree with that at all.If I was in charge of the NFL I'd get rid of the the playing of the anthem and any promotion of the military at games.

    Personally I wish we could go back to no politics in sport across the board and I suspect most people are the same.People who work hard all week don't want their recreation time being hijacked so important real world issues can be discussed and highlighted during it, they just want to watch the sport.


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    #15
    MrKingsley
    Registered Users Posts: 2,428 ✭✭✭MrKingsley


    Something ive not seen much coverage of is this https://www.reuters.com/article/us-football-nfl-players-coalition/nfl-players-agree-to-90-million-social-justice-pact-idUSKCN1IN2ZI

    Thats an agreement between the players coalition and the league so obviously discussions are progressing

    I think its a shame that the league and 31 owners wont allow it but on the other hand they are employees and have code of conducts to follow


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    #16
    j8wk2feszrnpao
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,438 ✭✭✭j8wk2feszrnpao


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    The same people who are screaming how they are offended by this are those who started shouting 'what about all lives matter?' during the black lives matter protests.
    And there you have the problem.
    You can have the opinion that there is a problem with police brutality and racial inequality, and think that disrespecting the flag/anthem is the wrong approach and offends many people.
    Calling people cowardly because they disagree with you on this? That's just a lazy argument.
    Foxtrol wrote: »
    'Possible' supporters, as in the similar sort of 'possible' chance of me starting in the NFL this season.
    No. You have zero chance of starting in the NFL. There are people who have said they agree with the issues they are highlighting, but not the method. I saw an African-American lady, who said she has suffered racial abuse, but lost her son in Afghanistan and came home draped in the flag. She agrees with the issues they are trying to highlight, but not their means; and that doesn't make her a coward.


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    #17
    notobtuse
    Registered Users Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    NFL TV viewership and game attendance has gone down over the last two years, and it’s primarily do to the player anthem protests.  Instead of the ban the NFL should have brought player agents in and told them if their clients continue with the protest (and support); to inform them in a few short years expect much lower contracts for you and the players.  Diminished viewership and game attendance results in less revenue.  And foolish people like Woody Johnson’s brother, who is in charge of the NY Jets while Woody is off playing ambassador, will only ensure the protests continue if he pays player fines.  Look for NFL ratings to go down even further this year.  I'm sick of protests and politics in football.  Protest all you want... on YOUR time!  It’s come to the point where if the Jets aren’t playing, I’m probably not watching.  I’ve acquired the Big Ten Network and SEC Network on cable and I now watch much more college football than pro.

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



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    #18
    Weepsie
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 19,824 Mod ✭✭✭✭Weepsie


    Joe Dog wrote: »
    You have no real entitlement to a right to protest about social issues while at work.I'm all for the players making a stand but they (or anyone else) have no right to do it during their jobs and that is something they need to accept and they could do a much better job of doing something about the issue if they just gave up on the in game protest and used their profile that the game gives them to arrange public protests outside of the NFL.

    .

    They're paid to play football, not to be an advertisement for the American military.

    If people are annoyed by it, it's working. They should keep doing it.


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    #19
    Weepsie
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 19,824 Mod ✭✭✭✭Weepsie


    notobtuse wrote: »
    NFL TV viewership and game attendance has gone down over the last two years, and it’s primarily do to the player anthem protests.  Instead of the ban the NFL should have brought player agents in and told them if their clients continue with the protest (and support); to inform them in a few short years expect much lower contracts for you and the players.  Diminished viewership and game attendance results in less revenue.  And foolish people like Woody Johnson’s brother, who is in charge of the NY Jets while Woody is off playing ambassador, will only ensure the protests continue if he pays player fines.  Look for NFL ratings to go down even further this year.  I'm sick of protests and politics in football.  Protest all you want... on YOUR time!  It’s come to the point where if the Jets aren’t playing, I’m probably not watching.  I’ve acquired the Big Ten Network and SEC Network on cable and I now watch much more college football than pro.

    Ticket prices have gone up every year since 2006 (probably longer) in a period when people have less and less disposable income and more and more ways to spend their time.

    It's a lazy excuse


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    #20
    Joe Dog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 138 ✭✭Joe Dog


    Weepsie wrote: »
    They're paid to play football, not to be an advertisement for the American military.

    If people are annoyed by it, it's working. They should keep doing it.

    Annoying people is not to purpose of the protest.

    It'll never work because America is a violent country by western standards and that isn't going to end anytime soon.


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    #21
    Weepsie
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 19,824 Mod ✭✭✭✭Weepsie


    Joe Dog wrote: »
    Annoying people is not to purpose of the protest.

    It'll never work because America is a violent country by western standards and that isn't going to end anytime soon.

    It has people 1000s of km away talking about it. That means it's achieving some its aim. They're not going to end any cycle of violence with such a protest, but if they are getting people engaged in any type of conversation on it, it's working.

    Any other place, or time and it would be lost and meaningless so do it when millions are watching. People who give out about it may as well stick their head in the sand


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    #22
    notobtuse
    Registered Users Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    Weepsie wrote: »
    notobtuse wrote: »
    NFL TV viewership and game attendance has gone down over the last two years, and it’s primarily do to the player anthem protests.  Instead of the ban the NFL should have brought player agents in and told them if their clients continue with the protest (and support); to inform them in a few short years expect much lower contracts for you and the players.  Diminished viewership and game attendance results in less revenue.  And foolish people like Woody Johnson’s brother, who is in charge of the NY Jets while Woody is off playing ambassador, will only ensure the protests continue if he pays player fines.  Look for NFL ratings to go down even further this year.  I'm sick of protests and politics in football.  Protest all you want... on YOUR time!  It’s come to the point where if the Jets aren’t playing, I’m probably not watching.  I’ve acquired the Big Ten Network and SEC Network on cable and I now watch much more college football than pro.

    Ticket prices have gone up every year since 2006 (probably longer) in a period when people have less and less disposable income and more and more ways to spend their time.

    It's a lazy excuse
    Polls show the recent decline of the NFL is primarily due to protests.

    If it was ticket prices then attendance would be down and viewership up.  Both are down.

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



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    #23
    TOss Sweep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,905 ✭✭✭TOss Sweep


    notobtuse wrote: »
    NFL TV viewership and game attendance has gone down over the last two years, and it’s primarily do to the player anthem protests.  Instead of the ban the NFL should have brought player agents in and told them if their clients continue with the protest (and support); to inform them in a few short years expect much lower contracts for you and the players.

    TV Viewership based on a research companies finding Nielsen and they can work the numbers all they want they are not a true reflection of TV Viewership in this modern era. Pool of just under 50k homes and using this 50k They work out averages on viewership. They don't account for online viewing or international viewing in the US.

    But having said that what they wont tell is that ALL network television is suffering as per the Nielsen research
    Through week seven, the NFL is down 5% overall from the same point last year. That's a troubling drop for the biggest ratings powerhouse on TV, but it seems less dire when you consider that the four major networks are down an average 8% in prime time.

    NBC is down 4%, CBS is down 6%, ABC is down 11%, and Fox's prime time viewership dropped 20% through the first month of the new TV season, according to Nielsen data. And those numbers are down despite the inclusion of live sporting events, which usually bring in big audiences.

    Now having said that 16 of the last 18 Top Events on TV in the US were NFL games. What does that tell you about numbers apparently dropping.

    The NFL and its sponsors are not worried and most if not all of their sponsors have committed long term. Saying tv numbers are dropping is an easy go to when a Network or Media company does something wrong.

    Long story short don't let the Protests killing viewership stories cloud your judgement.


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    #24
    TOss Sweep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,905 ✭✭✭TOss Sweep


    notobtuse wrote: »
    Polls show the recent decline of the NFL is primarily due to protests.

    If it was ticket prices then attendance would be down and viewership up.  Both are down.

    See my last post about TV viewership.

    But one thing people fail to mention is stadiums are still full and tickets being sold out across the US both on Ticketmaster and after seller sites. The Protests have barely dented the following in the NFL. All these Polls they bring up I bet are filled out by those who dont watch the NFL anyways.

    I have those people on my facebook feed all day long. "Oh I am not watching" No sh1t sherlock you never watched to begin with. Always the ones who never watch or are just casual watchers who have the most to say about not watching


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    #25
    notobtuse
    Registered Users Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    NFL's three most important leading indicators are all pointing down.  Television ratings are down, game attendance is down and there has been a fall-off in favorable ratings.  It’s not all just some coincidence.  

    One thing that might help… Just the other week a US Supreme Court ruling now lets states legalize sports gambling.  That will help sports.  But the NFL is demanding a cut of the betting, so again people will look at them as greedy bastids.

    But I am happy I soon can legally bet on sports in my state.   But I will be watching Sportscenter for the scores and highlights, not watching the games.

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



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    #26
    Weepsie
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 19,824 Mod ✭✭✭✭Weepsie


    NFL viewship was down between 2010 to 2012 (possibly 2009 too). it went up in 2013 and remained the same in 2014 and has been down every year since.

    It's lazy and just a handy excuse to say it's the national anthem issue.

    There are a multitude of issues. More people are streaming illegally than ever before. People are watching other sports, including college football. People are not interested in paying the increased costs. Live TV viewership is in general decline as people have so many other options. It's far more nuanced than some weird dissatisfaction with a protest.


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    #27
    TOss Sweep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,905 ✭✭✭TOss Sweep


    notobtuse wrote: »
    NFL's three most important leading indicators are all pointing down. Television ratings are down, game attendance is down and there has been a fall-off in favorable ratings. It’s not all just some coincidence.

    I already talked about the TV ratings but have you got figures for the attendances being down at games due to Protests. I can tell you the Patriots sold every seat.

    Can you show me a team that had a winning record that had a lot of empty seats in the season gone? There was 3 reports done and all of them included teams that "Used" to get high attendances but when you look at their records over the last few seasons their seasons have been over by the mid point.

    The majority of the teams sold out or got close to capacity. Even the Browns only fell short on capacity on average by 7,000 empty seats across the season. The numbers are all here

    https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2017/attendance.htm

    Just to give you a good guide point, Look at 2017 and then 2016 and notice all the teams with lower attendances are teams that finished with poor records or started the season with lower records. Like TV ratings easy for them to pick at them with tinted glasses.

    So if you want to believe attendances are down due to protests that is fine but you would be wrong.


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    #28
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    notobtuse wrote: »
    I'm sick of protests and politics in football.

    So you are sick of players being forced to stand for an anthem and flag and support an army, and all the politics in that move? And you are sick of the politicians like Trump protesting when the players disengage from those politics?


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    #29
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,120 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Weepsie wrote: »
    NFL viewship was down between 2010 to 2012 (possibly 2009 too). it went up in 2013 and remained the same in 2014 and has been down every year since.

    It's lazy and just a handy excuse to say it's the national anthem issue.

    There are a multitude of issues. More people are streaming illegally than ever before. People are watching other sports, including college football. People are not interested in paying the increased costs. Live TV viewership is in general decline as people have so many other options. It's far more nuanced than some weird dissatisfaction with a protest.

    There's also some level of revulsion at the CTE revelations, and the middle classes are turning away from the game in terms of allowing their kids to participate in it. The protests are a tiny part of the puzzle.


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    #30
    TOss Sweep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,905 ✭✭✭TOss Sweep


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    There's also some level of revulsion at the CTE revelations, and the middle classes are turning away from the game in terms of allowing their kids to participate in it. The protests are a tiny part of the puzzle.

    Not many though. The school I work with we have seen maybe two kids drop off in the 2 years I have been working with them. I know other coaches have seen very little drop off also.


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    #31
    mikemac2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,926 ✭✭✭mikemac2


    Baltimore fans shouting Ooooooo 's for their baseball team and then there is "home of the chiefs"

    Oh but these are perfectly fine but the fans spit flames if a player takes a knee. I wouldn't call the fans respectful either ^^^


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