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The Comfort of Woo - what do we replace it with?

  • 22-10-2019 12:40am
    #1
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    My Dad died as the Angelus rang out on the 21st Oct 2019.

    And it got me thinking. Not about the possibility of the existence of a deity but at the comfort of the rituals built around belief in a deity and what do we, as non believers, have in their stead.

    I'm not talking about the comfort brought about to those left behind - trust me, I will be doing all I can to not roll my eyes everytime I hear something about eternal life and gone to his maker over the coming days - but the very real comfort I saw brought to a dying man today.

    Now my Dad was a typical a la carte Irish Catholic of that generation who came to adulthood in the early 50s. Swore unbending allegiance to the RCC while being a bit loose in the actual observance of it's tenets and utterly failing to see how there was any kind of contradiction in what they claimed to believe and what they actually did.
    He was also one of those members of the older generation who eventually diverged greatly from the instructions issued from the pulpit while still retaining his adherence.
    He made the journey from pro-life homophobe to not only voting for Marriage Equality but to insisting he be photographed by his local polling station proudly wearing a Together for Yes badge and asking that the photograph be used to encourage the older generation to vote for Repeal for their great-grand daughters. And it was.

    Which bring me to my wondering. My Dad was not having an easy death. He was worried about his dog, the whereabouts of his wallet (I had both in my care...), how much should he tip the care staff....and as his ability to speak left him the fear grew in his clouded eyes and his unconscious fight to live played out in the disturbed movements of his body.

    His last hours were an ad for the need for dignity in death. It was torture to watch him being tortured by continued living.

    We wracked our brains to try and work out what we - or he - was missing. Why was this unconscious man fighting so hard?

    And then my sister said "should we call a priest?", the thought had never occured to me. We did, and the priest arrived within 15 minutes. I tactfully left the room lest I succumb to involuntary eye rolling.

    I came back to a man at peace. A simple ritual performed for a man who was no longer in any state of awareness still brought him restfulness.
    Perhaps he needed to feel absolved - but how he could have even known the ritual happened is beyond me.

    He died peacefully an hour and a half later. It might have been woo. I think it's woo. But it wooed him to stop fighting and rest at last.

    And I thought to myself how powerful this woo is. I hope that should I ever need something to ease my passing I have some kind of thing that says "it's ok to go now" but somehow I don't think science is going to provide that...


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Comments

  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Firstly very sorry for your loss. My own dad died a couple of years ago and it took quite a time to get over.

    My feeling with the woo thing is it depends very much on how you were raised. My father was a life long atheist and didn't seem to suffer from fear of death so much as frustration from physical decline and attendant lack of independence. He was living with us when he died after a long spell in hospital and missed living alone. My mother in law, a reasonably traditional Catholic, is currently in a home owned by nuns and does get comfort from her religious practice. Horses for courses.

    Myself and my wife have talked about it and are of a mind to take (or get given) a load of happy pills to make the final push rather than ĺinger as burden and financial drain on the kids. Whether we manage to achieve this is something else again, but that's the plan.

    Deepest condolences once again. We'll all muddle through however we muddle through.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,331 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    Amazing to see you posting here so soon after it. The feelings must be very fresh. Hope you're ok. My own father is going in for a new knee on 1/11/2019 so I am concerned and similarly wondering what can be done to allay his terrors and concerns. He too is not a subscriber to any woo. So I am working with what I have.
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    And I thought to myself how powerful this woo is.

    I am not so sure it is. Rather I think it is merely tapping into something else which is itself very powerful.

    Specifically I think it taps into the human's brains penchant for story. I, and a few others, suspect that much that seems powerful about things like woo is actually explained by how our brain perceives the world through story.

    For example the suspicion we share is that things like Meditation, Hypnotism, Placebo and so forth work because they are small tools by which we.... permit seems to be the best word..... ourselves to change the story we are telling ourselves in a given moment. It is perhaps not that placebo actually reduces pain for example, but perhaps we merely change the story we are telling ourselves about our suffering in that moment.

    So it is not really that the "woo is powerful" so much as it was your father who was powerful at telling himself stories and being guided by and controlled by those stories. Such that perhaps the completion of that story arc was so deep seated a need for him that he was literally capable of fighting longer for life until such time as it was resolved.

    The woo was likely not what was powerful here therefore. HE was. And speaking only for myself I know in your place I would draw some comfort and pride and respect and even awe from that. And that you, regardless of what you thought of that woo yourself, were in a position to help him finish the tale. A great gift to have been able to give indeed.

    So when you ask if at your own time to go will you have something similar given you do not expect science OR woo to provide it? To answer that I suspect you need explore the stories that your brain DOES use in your life. And understand what their resolution will be, or what the conclusion of their story arc might be. You should be the source of that conclusion. Not science or religion. And knowing you, I bet it will be a good one :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,650 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato
    Restaurant at the End of the Universe


    Genuinely sorry for your loss Bannasidhe.
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    He died peacefully an hour and a half later. It might have been woo. I think it's woo. But it wooed him to stop fighting and rest at last.

    It's the thing his brain was conditioned over a lifetime to accept, or expect.
    But equally I've no doubt a dying person would find the presence of the wrong flavour of woo merchant to be distressing.

    And I thought to myself how powerful this woo is. I hope that should I ever need something to ease my passing I have some kind of thing that says "it's ok to go now" but somehow I don't think science is going to provide that...

    I don't think it will, but in the absence of religious conditioning, is it needed? I'd like to hear the experiences of those who have lost non-believing relatives and how it went for them right at the end.

    Also I'm surprised the hospital weren't either suggesting calling the priest or did it themselves (this being Ireland.) After all, it's supposed to be the reason that pretty much the first thing you get asked booking into A+E however minor the ailment, is what religion you are.

    It took a while but I don't mind. How does my body look in this light?



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Amazing to see you posting here so soon after it. The feelings must be very fresh. Hope you're ok. My own father is going in for a new knee on 1/30/2019 so I am concerned and similarly wondering what can be done to allay his terrors and concerns. He too is not a subscriber to any woo. So I am working with what I have.



    I am not so sure it is. Rather I think it is merely tapping into something else which is itself very powerful.

    Specifically I think it taps into the human's brains penchant for story. I, and a few others, suspect that much that seems powerful about things like woo is actually explained by how our brain perceives the world through story.

    For example the suspicion we share is that things like Meditation, Hypnotism, Placebo and so forth work because they are small tools by which we.... permit seems to be the best word..... ourselves to change the story we are telling ourselves in a given moment. It is perhaps not that placebo actually reduces pain for example, but perhaps we merely change the story we are telling ourselves about our suffering in that moment.

    So it is not really that the "woo is powerful" so much as it was your father who was powerful at telling himself stories and being guided by and controlled by those stories. Such that perhaps the completion of that story arc was so deep seated a need for him that he was literally capable of fighting longer for life until such time as it was resolved.

    The woo was likely not what was powerful here therefore. HE was. And speaking only for myself I know in your place I would draw some comfort and pride and respect and even awe from that. And that you, regardless of what you thought of that woo yourself, were in a position to help him finish the tale. A great gift to have been able to give indeed.

    So when you ask if at your own time to go will you have something similar given you do not expect science OR woo to provide it? To answer that I suspect you need explore the stories that your brain DOES use in your life. And understand what their resolution will be, or what the conclusion of their story arc might be. You should be the source of that conclusion. Not science or religion. And knowing you, I bet it will be a good one :)

    You could be on to something there. He was a great man for stories and most of those bore only a passing resemblance to the truth.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Genuinely sorry for your loss Bannasidhe.



    It's the thing his brain was conditioned over a lifetime to accept, or expect.
    But equally I've no doubt a dying person would find the presence of the wrong flavour of woo merchant to be distressing.




    I don't think it will, but in the absence of religious conditioning, is it needed? I'd like to hear the experiences of those who have lost non-believing relatives and how it went for them right at the end.

    Also I'm surprised the hospital weren't either suggesting calling the priest or did it themselves (this being Ireland.) After all, it's supposed to be the reason that pretty much the first thing you get asked booking into A+E however minor the ailment, is what religion you are.

    The thing that struck me was that he appeared to be completely unaware of his surroundings (I say appeared as I cannot say for certain), on increasingly large doses of morphine, and extremely distressed - but as soon as the priest finished became calm.

    I should add that my Dad was as deaf as a post so would have been unable to hear what was being said even in the best of his health.

    That is what fascinated me so much. How the woo worked on a man (albeit a man conditioned to believe that brand of woo) when he was unlikely to even know the woo had taken place. But I have to say the woo did work. The only factor that had changed between my leaving the room that contained a dying man raging and returning 5 minutes later to a man dying peacefully was, well, woo happened. It was to all intents and purposes instantaneous.

    I have no doubt he believed there was a lot of things he had done during his life that required 'absolution' - and he'd be right - and according to his belief system he received that 'absolution' so could die peacefully. And that would be understandable if he had been aware of receiving absolution. I would have though no more about it (weeelll, maybe a wee patronising thought to myself about opium for the masses if I'm honest).

    Lack of awareness is the bit that got me thinking. I had been there 5 hours at that point. He had not shown any signs of awareness for about 4 hours. So did he know and if so how did he know? And if he didn't know what happened to change the manner of his death in that 5 minutes?

    There was no sign of institutionalised religiosity in the hosp - perhaps because it is private. We couldn't bear putting him through the trolley nightmare in a public one (we had that experience last year).


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  • Registered Users Posts: 33,650 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato
    Restaurant at the End of the Universe


    I read a good article recently about dying, it said that we should not fear the dying process, the vast majority of people die 'peacefully'. I'll try to find it.

    As the brain begins to shut down the ability to experience or exhibit distress is going to be lost at some point. The timing of this could be a coincidence, or he had more awareness than you thought.

    e.g. it's easy to tell when a form of mumbling is a religious one, and if it's well known to you then you don't even need to hear the words, just the rhythm*. Whereas everyday conversation needs the vast majority of the words to be intelligible.

    * Just another of the ways religion taps into the brain.

    It took a while but I don't mind. How does my body look in this light?



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Just a thought in terms of awareness, I wonder whether the rite the priest performed included physical aspects such as anointing which someone with a religious upbringing might associate with the clergy?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe



    e.g. it's easy to tell when a form of mumbling is a religious one, and if it's well known to you then you don't even need to hear the words, just the rhythm*. Whereas everyday conversation needs the vast majority of the words to be intelligible.

    But he couldn't hear the mumblings...


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,331 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    That is what fascinated me so much. How the woo worked on a man (albeit a man conditioned to believe that brand of woo) when he was unlikely to even know the woo had taken place. But I have to say the woo did work. The only factor that had changed between my leaving the room that contained a dying man raging and returning 5 minutes later to a man dying peacefully was, well, woo happened. It was to all intents and purposes instantaneous.

    You know I have heard people say almost the same things you just did here above. But about homeopathy. Or something similar.

    There are two main reasons things like homeopathy work. The first is placebo, which is the one most people know about. It is unlikely to apply in your case if you are correct that your father was entirely unaware a placebo was being administered at all.

    The other is a little less often known and is what we call "return to the mean". Essentially what this means is that people resort to woo or nonsense or some alternative option only in their most desperate moment. Things get worse and they do not try it. Things get worse again and they do not try it. Then things get so bad they crack and they say "Ok, let us try thing idea here".OR in your case after some time of being unsure what to do the option "should we call a priest?"

    Because they waited so long, they often crack just at the point when things were going to pan out and get "better" anyway. Either "better" in terms of the patient was about to improve or become well, or "better" as in the turmoil stage of their passing was about to ease.

    From reading your first post, but more so from reading THIS one, I somewhat suspect that is what is in play here. It is hard to accept when an action seemed to have a powerful effect, that it might have just been about to happen in that moment anyway and it was all just coincidence. But often this is the case. It is unfortunately also hard to test as you can not re-wind time and run the experiment again without the intervention.

    And stories of the efficacy of the "cure" that someone tried are self selecting. For every story like yours there are stories where someone tried the "cure" sooner than the return to mean, and it did nothing therefore, or they did not try it in time and the patient improved on their own so they never got around to it. The problem is we never hear either of THOSE story types. We only hear the ones where the coincidence scored a "hit".

    And if affects people. My sister continues to spread Vicks Vaporub on the soles of her feet every time she gets a cold, convinced it works despite it almost never doing so. All because the FIRST two times she tried it, it appeared to work instantly. No amount of failure since appears to dissuade her of the efficacy of the treatment.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 834 ✭✭✭KWAG2019


    Sorry for your loss. Truly. It’s a vulnerable time. In months to come look back at the moment with someone who has seen many deaths. Sometimes there is peace, sometimes not. The rites of the RCC comfort some and have no impact on the struggle to live of others. There is no magic spell, not in the words or the oil. Just human fear and instinct and biological programming. Gentleness matters. To him then and to you now.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    You know I have heard people say almost the same things you just did here above. But about homeopathy. Or something similar.

    There are two main reasons things like homeopathy work. The first is placebo, which is the one most people know about. It is unlikely to apply in your case if you are correct that your father was entirely unaware a placebo was being administered at all.

    The other is a little less often known and is what we call "return to the mean". Essentially what this means is that people resort to woo or nonsense or some alternative option only in their most desperate moment. Things get worse and they do not try it. Things get worse again and they do not try it. Then things get so bad they crack and they say "Ok, let us try thing idea here".OR in your case after some time of being unsure what to do the option "should we call a priest?"

    Because they waited so long, they often crack just at the point when things were going to pan out and get "better" anyway. Either "better" in terms of the patient was about to improve or become well, or "better" as in the turmoil stage of their passing was about to ease.

    From reading your first post, but more so from reading THIS one, I somewhat suspect that is what is in play here. It is hard to accept when an action seemed to have a powerful effect, that it might have just been about to happen in that moment anyway and it was all just coincidence. But often this is the case. It is unfortunately also hard to test as you can not re-wind time and run the experiment again without the intervention.

    And stories of the efficacy of the "cure" that someone tried are self selecting. For every story like yours there are stories where someone tried the "cure" sooner than the return to mean, and it did nothing therefore, or they did not try it in time and the patient improved on their own so they never got around to it. The problem is we never hear either of THOSE story types. We only hear the ones where the coincidence scored a "hit".

    And if affects people. My sister continues to spread Vicks Vaporub on the soles of her feet every time she gets a cold, convinced it works despite it almost never doing so. All because the FIRST two times she tried it, it appeared to work instantly. No amount of failure since appears to dissuade her of the efficacy of the treatment.

    Just to be clear, I don't think there is any 'magic' in the woo. When the woo works that is, imo, down to psychological conditioning. Taught to believe it works - so the mind interprets it as working.


    But I do wonder, if we as non-believers, are too quick to dismiss things as coincidence when they do not fit our personal narrative.
    Could we be guilty of ignoring the evidence that X was happening, then Y was introduced, and Z happened because we do not approve of 'Y'?
    Is our (lack of) belief creating a bias in our assessment of the evidence?

    The woo would not work for me because I do not believe the woo. Anyone's woo.
    Hindu/Muslim/Jewish woo would not work on a Roman Catholic as it is the wrong woo - and vice versa.
    But when the 'correct' woo is presented to a mind pre-conditioned to accept that woo then there are occasions when the woo most certainly does work. And when it does it is a good thing in that it brings peace at a crucial psychological moment. It may be little more than a more sophisticated version of when Mammy kisses a small child's boo-boo better but we all know kissing the boo-boo better can be very effective when dealing with a screaming toddler.

    Which bring me to my original point - what psychological comfort/trick/boo-boo kissing is available to us non-believers as we reach the moment when we are about to leap into the great void forever?
    What psychological 'there there, it will be ok' pat on the head do we have that will bring comfort?
    Are we so arrogant that we believe ourselves to be above such simple things as a psychological trick that nonetheless brings comfort?


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    You could be on to something there. He was a great man for stories and most of those bore only a passing resemblance to the truth.

    :D The best ones only ever bear a passing resemblance!
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    But he couldn't hear the mumblings...

    You probably don't know that for certain though. It's like you don't actively hear when you're asleep but your brain is still processing the sounds, if your smoke alarm goes off you'll hear it. It could be that subconsciously he felt the need to hear those words and was afraid to let go until he did.

    I personally wouldn't delve too deeply into the whys or hows of the priest calming him down, you can never know for sure, i'd just be be thankful that he did.

    When it gets to that stage all you really want is for it to end as quickly and peacefully as possible, if that means telling a few porkies or some mumbo jumbo or other, then so be it. That would be my attitude anyway.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    :D The best ones only ever bear a passing resemblance!



    You probably don't know that for certain though. It's like you don't actively hear when you're asleep but your brain is still processing the sounds, if your smoke alarm goes off you'll hear it. It could be that subconsciously he felt the need to hear those words and was afraid to let go until he did.

    His eardrums were badly damaged in a car crash many years ago and the dog ate his superduper very bloody expensive hearing aids so I'm pretty certain. :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,331 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    But I do wonder, if we as non-believers, are too quick to dismiss things as coincidence when they do not fit our personal narrative.

    I think for me it is never that I dismiss it at all. It is more that I have not been given a single other substantiated alternative to select from. Where as things like "return to the mean" "false patter recognition" and "subjective awe at coincidence" all all heavily substantiated and demonstrated in many contexts.

    Until I am offered substantive alternatives it is not that I am dismissing alternatives, it is that I have not been given any TO dismiss.

    In fact the opposite is true in that I seem to be more open to explanations than some other skeptics I talk to. For example I am much more open minded on the abilities of the brain to influence states of the body and mind than many I speak to.
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Which bring me to my original point - what psychological comfort/trick/boo-boo kissing is available to us non-believers as we reach the moment when we are about to leap into the great void forever?
    What psychological 'there there, it will be ok' pat on the head do we have that will bring comfort?

    For me personally the question contains the answer. The vast it is a endless void IS the comfort for me. That there is nothing to worry about and that it will in fact therefore "be ok".

    The only assurances and comfort I need or want when my time comes is that my actual passing will be without suffering as much as possible. The passing itself is for me not a concern.

    All that said though, sometimes when I am asked "What can we replace X with without religion or other woo" the first question I always ask is SHOULD we replace X or do we need to? Perhaps in our rush to find ways to alleviate grief over the death of others, or fear of our own death, we miss the question of whether we should in fact be doing that at all.

    And I have yet to be convinced it is a good thing to be doing in and of itself. Certainly not by the means we often do it, such as lying to ourselves about it and essentially ignoring the issues.

    In terms of grief I think it is something best faced and dealt with, rather than pushed under a rug of "They are in a better place" or "I will see them again some day" lies.

    And in terms of our own mortality, I think we do not tend to face it until forced to by it's imminence. We do not explore it, think deeply on it, discuss it, account for it as often or as comprehensively as we could. It is something we essentially put off considering as long as we can. And I wonder if that is a part of the reason we need lies and reassurances more than we otherwise might when the moment finally arrives. Whereas if it was part of our ongoing life long narrative.... we would not need such drastic platitudes in the moment.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    But I do wonder, if we as non-believers, are too quick to dismiss things as coincidence when they do not fit our personal narrative.
    Could we be guilty of ignoring the evidence that X was happening, then Y was introduced, and Z happened because we do not approve of 'Y'?
    Is our (lack of) belief creating a bias in our assessment of the evidence?

    Very probably, but the question remains when we witness something we have difficulty understanding what conclusion do we draw? Mine is simply to say that I don't know what happened there and fully accept that this is reasonable as my mind is a relatively feeble apparatus. I'd also investigate further if sufficiently motivated to do so. Substituting God/Allah/Jehovah did it, or any other attractive magical excuse, does not seem reasonable or sensible.
    The woo would not work for me because I do not believe the woo. Anyone's woo.
    Hindu/Muslim/Jewish woo would not work on a Roman Catholic as it is the wrong woo - and vice versa.
    But when the 'correct' woo is presented to a mind pre-conditioned to accept that woo then there are occasions when the woo most certainly does work. And when it does it is a good thing in that it brings peace at a crucial psychological moment. It may be little more than a more sophisticated version of when Mammy kisses a small child's boo-boo better but we all know kissing the boo-boo better can be very effective when dealing with a screaming toddler.

    Which bring me to my original point - what psychological comfort/trick/boo-boo kissing is available to us non-believers as we reach the moment when we are about to leap into the great void forever?
    What psychological 'there there, it will be ok' pat on the head do we have that will bring comfort?
    Are we so arrogant that we believe ourselves to be above such simple things as a psychological trick that nonetheless brings comfort?

    I'd imagine it is going to be a very personal thing and vary substantially. For me the notion that I will choose the time and method of my own demise gives me a degree of comfort as death becomes a last conscious choice rather than succumbing to the inevitable. Again, whether it pans out this way or not is something else.

    As an atheist, I think one's philosophical outlook also plays an important role here. Having been very keen on philosophical Taoism in the past I think there's great value in thinking of ourselves to an extent as components of a whole rather than solely as a 'self' occupying the universe that surrounds us. This corresponds to pantheism without an actual godhead and diminishes the relevance of death.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,650 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato
    Restaurant at the End of the Universe


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Are we so arrogant that we believe ourselves to be above such simple things as a psychological trick that nonetheless brings comfort?

    A psychological trick - describes religion to a tee, imho.

    It took a while but I don't mind. How does my body look in this light?



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    A psychological trick - describes religion to a tee, imho.

    It's the Las Vegas glitzy razzle dazzle smoke and mirrors end of the trick franchise.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    His eardrums were badly damaged in a car crash many years ago and the dog ate his superduper very bloody expensive hearing aids so I'm pretty certain. :D

    The dog you were minding?:D:D


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    The dog you were minding?:D:D

    Didn't happen on my shift. :cool:


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Bannasidhe, I'm genuinely sorry for the loss of your father. I know what it's like since I lost mine over a year ago.

    But it's unfortunate that what your father would have called faith, you call 'woo'. Don't you see that as a mockery of your father's faith? Can you not just call it faith?


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    kelly1 wrote: »
    But it's unfortunate that what your father would have called faith, you call 'woo'. Don't you see that as a mockery of your father's faith? Can you not just call it faith?

    One person's faith is woo to another person though, and a person's faith no more deserves respect than their opinion. What deserves respect is the right to openly hold and express that faith, not the faith itself. If you consider criticism of religious beliefs to be a form of personal attack perhaps you could explain why a Christian might consider heresy or apostasy a crime?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    The thing that struck me was that he appeared to be completely unaware of his surroundings (I say appeared as I cannot say for certain), on increasingly large doses of morphine, and extremely distressed - but as soon as the priest finished became calm.

    I should add that my Dad was as deaf as a post so would have been unable to hear what was being said even in the best of his health.

    That is what fascinated me so much. How the woo worked on a man (albeit a man conditioned to believe that brand of woo) when he was unlikely to even know the woo had taken place. But I have to say the woo did work. The only factor that had changed between my leaving the room that contained a dying man raging and returning 5 minutes later to a man dying peacefully was, well, woo happened. It was to all intents and purposes instantaneous.

    I have no doubt he believed there was a lot of things he had done during his life that required 'absolution' - and he'd be right - and according to his belief system he received that 'absolution' so could die peacefully. And that would be understandable if he had been aware of receiving absolution. I would have though no more about it (weeelll, maybe a wee patronising thought to myself about opium for the masses if I'm honest).

    Lack of awareness is the bit that got me thinking. I had been there 5 hours at that point. He had not shown any signs of awareness for about 4 hours. So did he know and if so how did he know? And if he didn't know what happened to change the manner of his death in that 5 minutes?

    There was no sign of institutionalised religiosity in the hosp - perhaps because it is private. We couldn't bear putting him through the trolley nightmare in a public one (we had that experience last year).

    Something similar happened when my Da died, it was the middle of the night so we were in bed and were woken up to go down as he had become very.. distressed.. and to me seemed completely unaware of what was happening (also before we went to bed he seemed to have lost awareness), but yet after we came to him and said goodbye he calmed down and a little while later went unconscious and then passed on shortly after that.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Bannasidhe, I'm genuinely sorry for the loss of your father. I know what it's like since I lost mine over a year ago.

    But it's unfortunate that what your father would have called faith, you call 'woo'. Don't you see that as a mockery of your father's faith? Can you not just call it faith?

    Out of respect for his beliefs I sat in the front row during his removal and funeral mass.
    Out of respect for my own lack of belief I sat quietly and did not participate in the rituals going on around me.

    You may consider it 'faith', but I am acutely aware that he most certainly did not follow the rules laid down by his religion so the argument could be made that he did not respect his faith so why should I?
    But yet I sat there. Being respectful during rituals that are so utterly meaningless to me that they qualify as woo.
    His beliefs do not trump my lack of belief.
    He may have called it 'faith' (although that is a term I never heard him use, he always said he was being a 'catlick'), to me it's woo. He had his truth. I have mine.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Just dropped in to point out that hospitals no longer call a priest or any other cleric for a patient irregardless of what is written on patients notes.
    If a patient wants to see a cleric, or be attended to by a cleric at any stage then the patient or family have to organise that themselves.
    You need have no fear of being terrified by the Sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick if you haven’t asked for it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,650 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato
    Restaurant at the End of the Universe


    Yeah right. How come we have so many reports on this forum of patients (including myself) being bothered by god-botherers after putting down "no religion" on their admission form?

    It took a while but I don't mind. How does my body look in this light?



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,100 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    splinter65 wrote: »
    ...being terrified by the Sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick if you haven’t asked for it.

    What's this now? :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Yeah right. How come we have so many reports on this forum of patients (including myself) being bothered by god-botherers after putting down "no religion" on their admission form?

    So you specifically put down no religion on your admission form recently and then found yourself during your hospital stay repeatedly bothered by a priest at your bedside trying to force communion on you?
    How strange.
    There aren’t enough priests now to call to the hospital and spend a long time going from ward to ward as they used to, so they’ve said that you or your family have to seek out the priest if you want his attention.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    There's a comfort in not believing too. I don't think we talk about that enough. I used to be terrified as a child that I would die before I got the chance to confess my 'sins', that I was always being watched by whoever was up there, that the bad things that happened to me meant I was actually a bad person who deserved them because my prayers for help went unanswered.... I could go on but I feel incredibly liberated not having belief anymore.

    Bannasidhe I'm so sorry for your loss. X


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,650 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato
    Restaurant at the End of the Universe


    splinter65 wrote: »
    There aren’t enough priests now to call to the hospital and spend a long time going from ward to ward as they used to, so they’ve said that you or your family have to seek out the priest if you want his attention.

    Well I'd hope that's now the case :)

    My incident was in late 2005, it probably didn't help that the only bed they could find for me (then aged 34, broken leg) was in a geriatric ward. I wasn't alone though, the guy opposite me was 21 :)

    I told yer man politely to go away but he still insisted on laying his hand on me (over the covers, thankfully) and muttering his mumbo-jumbo.

    I should've rung the patient assistance bell and had that cnut run out of there.

    It took a while but I don't mind. How does my body look in this light?



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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 945 ✭✭✭Always Tired


    I thought the whole thing about being an atheist is you are too smart/badass to need such things. Can't have it both ways man, you just gotta face death alone if you don't have faith.

    Not saying either way is right or wrong but I do find it interesting that so many people who have had near death experiences, from different countries, even children who would never had heard of a near death experience, report seeing and hearing similar things. If you have ever beem om nderf dot org it's pretty fascinating. To me these experiences suggest there is some sort of afterlife. Our narrow short existence suffering on this daft lump of rock being all there is seems doubtful. And disappointing.


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