Assumed ingredients in food/drink ordered?

OnDraught wrote: »

They were a selection my other half brought back to try before giving them to her lactose intolerant niece. There were 5 or 6 different ones.



You may have a poor palate but most people do not. I would be fully aware if there was something amiss with what I ordered. Assuming you are a vegan you have to remember that you now have most likely forgotten what a proper cappuccino or truffle taste like. When I started eating meat after being a vegetarian for 8 years I was horrified at the meat substitutes I enjoyed only a few weeks before.



You have failed to answer my question here though. If somebody snuck dairy as an ingredient in to your food in an underhanded way but you enjoyed it before being told what happened would you be ok with that?

So were the 5/6 ones desserts (freshly made cakes, mouses etc) or were they store bought confectionary/chocolate etc? Any chance of brand names if so? Just curious as there's a lot of muck out there, same way there's a lot of apples and mandarins that when parents introduce kids to fruit for the first time, if they don't choose good ones, then the kid will then think all apples and all mandarins taste like this.

I'm not saying there's something amiss with what you ordered or anything about palate (I believe I've a great palate thanks ). I'm saying that you've most likely had plenty of vegan products, that just happen to be vegan by design, oreos or chocolate or apple turnovers or the many cakes, desserts, confectionery etc that just happens to be vegan anyway.

I've tested a lot of foods on my own mini relations and I think once you get approval from a kid who otherwise has a terrible diet, then you know you're on the right track!

As I said, I think vegans in general are scrupulous and should never assume something is vegan, no matter how vegan it sounds, the same way someone with allergies shouldn't assume something is allergen free I guess. If somebody "snuck in" dairy after reading the ingredients or confirming with staff that what was being ordered didn't contain any animal products, then that's a dick thing to do and dangerous if the customer also happened to have allergies to the specific food, so that's certainly not ok.

You'll quite often find something referred to as vegan, only to find out it contains honey or some other animal derived product.

dee_mc wrote: »

If you want to introduce customers to new things, offer them as clearly marked freebies when they order their regular. Make them a tiny almond milk cappuccino or whatever so they can taste it and decide for themselves if they want to order one in the future.
Any notion of secretly giving people a plant-based milk alternative as a base for their coffee drink is just silly, especially on the basis that you think they'll be ok with it just because they didn't specify they wanted a cow's milk cappuccino or whatever! People like to get what they pay for, but yeah, if you offer the opportunity to consciously try an alternative, and if they like it, then maybe they will turn away from the dairy 'dark side'.
I don't drink milk and I choose to drink my coffee black, so what you're suggesting wouldn't effect me, but to take my mum as an example, she's allergic to soya and oats and she always feels ill after drinking almond milk, so even though these aren't on the specified allergens list, if you were to quietly serve a coffee drink using one of these alternatives you'd have one (violently) sick customer on your hands.
Your idea reminds me a bit of when people conceal vegetables in young children's food - longterm it doesn't work, because you're not teaching them to try something new by trying to fool them into eating something they don't want, even if it is for the greater good.

That's not really the point, especially if the establishment is vegan anyway, I don't think they could be giving away freebies the whole time, or spending time making tiny samples for those who enter a vegan premises and order a cappuccino.

Again, it's not about secretly giving anyone anything, it's about a more efficient process of using one milk by default, that just happens to not be what that drink is conventionally made with, because the conventional ingredient doesn't fit in with the ethos of the establishment.

Your mother is a great example of where caution needs to be taken. It's about getting the balance of not losing customers who have an unfounded fear of anything unconventional, but then at the same time making sure each customer enjoys what's on offer as much as possible, so your mother could go for rice milk instead for example if the option was there.

Del2005 wrote: »

If I order a Cappucino and the restaurant doesn't make it with cow milk then I'd expect to be informed, if they don't then it's a sign of how little respect they have for their customers. Where do you draw the line all coffee is decaf because you don't agree with people getting a caffeine buzz.

The only time it might be OK is if the premises has multiple signs saying everything here is vegan , then I could go somewhere else.

How is it disrespect for their customers if they are a vegan establishment. I mean if they called a homemade bar they made a snickers, are you going to be upset becuase there's not powdered milk in it?

witchgirl26 wrote: »

Since when is chocolate vegan? Most chocolate I know is made with milk and therefore definitely not vegan. And I know this as I have a lactose intolerance so am completely aware of what has dairy in it and what doesn't.



Yes vegans and vegetarians are scrupulous as they are not in the majority so need to double check that their specific, chosen lifestyle choice is catered for. If this was reversed and someone decided to sneak some meat onto a pizza for a vegi or vegan as "maybe they'd like it if they tried it" there'd be uproar and rightly so!

I completely disagree with the premise offered. I can't have milk. I use soy drink on my cereal in the morning but have hated any hot chocolate I made using it (don't take anything in tea anyway). My other half really hates the taste of it in hot drinks so would be disgusted if a cafe randomly decided he should try it and he only found out after paying when drinking it. And yes you can taste the difference. People are allowed to try or not try things if they want but it shouldn't be forced upon them by a cafe!

Milk chocolate yes. A lot of dark chocolates won't have any milk, but just be careful as they may be made on the same production line as those using milk.

Again, this isn't about sneaking anything anywhere. The cafe isn't forcing anything upon anyone. The cafe has a product and the customer can choose whether to buy it or not.

Scraggs wrote: »

If I ordered this "cappuccino" well firstly hopefully I would have my epi pen with me and secondly I'd be pissed there's not even coffee ...why would you call it a cappuccino?

Deliberately misleading customers as to what the food ingredients are is such a bizarre business model especially when there is a trend towards transparency with ingredients and consumers are more knowledgable and concerned with what they are eating.

The example you gave earlier of an "oul lad" looking at desserts and not ordering because they were vegan is an example of poor staff training imo, rather than pushing the desserts as vegan being the main feature the staff member should have been prepared with spiels for each item eg: "this apple tart is made with fresh apples from Johnnys orchard", "this brownie is made with dark chocolate so is lovely and rich but not too heavy and is perfect with coffee"

I was just giving an example to see if naming something that has none of the traditional ingredients is still ok from a legal perspective. Again it's not about deliberately misleading customers. A burger is just a shape. It's not misleading to call something a burger just because it has no meat in it.

I completely agree with the "oul lad" scenario, I actually said it to the person after that I bet if she didn't mention the word vegan, he would have bought one

witchgirl26 wrote: »

But there was nothing in your original posts that stated that it would be a vegan restaurant - hence my confusion.

If I go into a vegetarian or vegan restaurant of course I expect there not to be animal products in use but if I'm in a cafe that has not been advertised as either, then there is a presumption there.

I would hope and I think it may actually eventually be the case, that such presumptions are no longer justified and the original post was more just on trying to decipher the legalities of the scenario.