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Good article detailing Dublin's unfair funding advantage

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    #32
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,923 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    DoctaDee wrote: »
    No,.. there's a convenience when dealing with figures in that you can make them bend to your particular pov. What gets lost or at the very least overlooked in these spreadsheet forensics is the
    additional money given to every other county (bar Dublin) from their provincial councils for games development.

    You can also see here that some people conflate the GD grant from central council as a payment to fund the senior set ups.. it's not, you'd have to look deeper into the finances and check under the team expenses for that figure.. it makes for a different conversation on where the unspoken money goes

    Other things to remember is some sponsors pay for stuff directly (e.g. Supermacs and Galway) and other counties have supporters clubs to pay for stuff,


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    #33
    Perifect
    Closed Accounts Posts: 751 ✭✭✭Perifect


    Clareman wrote: »
    Let's get some maths to look at the numbers, assuming the numbers are right and are from this widely distributed list
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=472807&stc=1&d=1549923438
    taking into account population it could be argued that Dublin are underfunded compared to other counties

    County Population Budget Per Person
    Dublin 2,137,639 €17,916,477.00 €8.38
    Antrim 618,108 €1,059,400.00 €1.71
    Cork 542,196 €1,434,287.00 €2.65
    Down 531,665 €699,521.00 €1.32
    Galway 258,552 €968,539.00 €3.75
    Derry 247,132 €1,344,075.00 €5.44
    Kildare 222,130 €1,090,427.00 €4.91
    Limerick 195,175 €930,337.00 €4.77
    Meath 194,942 €1,190,047.00 €6.10
    Tyrone 179,000 €679,216.00 €3.79
    Armagh 174,792 €816,655.00 €4.67
    Tipperary 160,441 €965,082.00 €6.02
    Donegal 158,755 €704,938.00 €4.44
    Wexford 149,605 €1,004,996.00 €6.72
    Kerry 147,554 €98,481.00 €0.67
    Wicklow 142,332 €1,006,294.00 €7.07
    Mayo 130,425 €718,780.00 €5.51
    Louth 128,375 €948,007.00 €7.38
    Clare 118,817 €838,518.00 €7.06
    Waterford 116,401 €984,557.00 €8.46
    Kilkenny 99,118 €803,582.00 €8.11
    Westmeath 88,770 €871,420.00 €9.82
    Laois 84,732 €1,074,486.00 €12.68
    Offaly 78,003 €1,004,426.00 €12.88
    Cavan 76,092 €750,425.00 €9.86
    Sligo 65,357 €720,140.00 €11.02
    Roscommon 64,436 €771,559.00 €11.97
    Fermanagh 61,170 €634,173.00 €10.37
    Monaghan 61,273 €669,957.00 €10.93
    Carlow 56,875 €856,897.00 €15.07
    Longford 40,810 €650,484.00 €15.94
    Leitrim 31,972 €688,521.00 €21.54

    Wow!!! I thought they were getting more because of their population but look at Antrim and Cork! Kerry are only getting €0.67. And how many of Dublin's population play GAA? Also, where is that 2,137,639 coming from? That is way above the population of Dublin.


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    #34
    Perifect
    Closed Accounts Posts: 751 ✭✭✭Perifect


    Clareman wrote: »
    Other things to remember is some sponsors pay for stuff directly (e.g. Supermacs and Galway) and other counties have supporters clubs to pay for stuff,

    Don't Dublin have sponsors? How much money do they give?


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    #35
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,923 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    Perifect wrote: »
    Wow!!! I thought they were getting more because of their population but look at Antrim and Cork! Kerry are only getting €0.67. And how many of Dublin's population play GAA? Also, where is that 2,137,639 coming from? That is way above the population of Dublin.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irish_counties_by_population

    I added Dublin, Fingal, South Dublin and Dún Laoghaire–Rathdown.

    I would say the playing population of Dublin is comparable with other counties, maybe even higher as they are a dual county.


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    #36
    Perifect
    Closed Accounts Posts: 751 ✭✭✭Perifect


    Clareman wrote: »
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irish_counties_by_population

    I added Dublin, Fingal, South Dublin and Dún Laoghaire–Rathdown.

    I would say the playing population of Dublin is comparable with other counties, maybe even higher as they are a dual county.

    Did you make that table? The population of Dublin is 1,345,402. If their playing population is comparable with other counties, why are they getting 18 times more money?


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    #37
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,923 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    Perifect wrote: »
    Did you make that table? The population of Dublin is 1,345,402. If their playing population is comparable with other counties, why are they getting 18 times more money?

    I made it by getting the populations from wikipedia and the figures from that image.

    Lies, damn lies and statistics.


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    #38
    Perifect
    Closed Accounts Posts: 751 ✭✭✭Perifect


    17,916,477/1,345,402 = €13.31 per person.


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    #39
    Perifect
    Closed Accounts Posts: 751 ✭✭✭Perifect


    Clareman wrote: »
    I made it by getting the populations from wikipedia and the figures from that image.

    Lies, damn lies and statistics.

    Well the population is the 1.345 million number. I don't know why the others are listed there.


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    #40
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,923 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    Perifect wrote: »
    Well the population is the 1.345 million number. I don't know why the others are listed there.

    Fair enough, adjusted table below

    County Population Budget Per Person
    Dublin 1,345,402 €17,916,477.00 €13.32
    Antrim 618,108 €1,059,400.00 €1.71
    Cork 542,196 €1,434,287.00 €2.65
    Down 531,665 €699,521.00 €1.32
    Galway 258,552 €968,539.00 €3.75
    Londonderry 247,132 €1,344,075.00 €5.44
    Kildare 222,130 €1,090,427.00 €4.91
    Limerick 195,175 €930,337.00 €4.77
    Meath 194,942 €1,190,047.00 €6.10
    Tyrone 179,000 €679,216.00 €3.79
    Armagh 174,792 €816,655.00 €4.67
    Tipperary 160,441 €965,082.00 €6.02
    Donegal 158,755 €704,938.00 €4.44
    Wexford 149,605 €1,004,996.00 €6.72
    Kerry 147,554 €98,481.00 €0.67
    Wicklow 142,332 €1,006,294.00 €7.07
    Mayo 130,425 €718,780.00 €5.51
    Louth 128,375 €948,007.00 €7.38
    Clare 118,817 €838,518.00 €7.06
    Waterford 116,401 €984,557.00 €8.46
    Kilkenny 99,118 €803,582.00 €8.11
    Westmeath 88,770 €871,420.00 €9.82
    Laois 84,732 €1,074,486.00 €12.68
    Offaly 78,003 €1,004,426.00 €12.88
    Cavan 76,092 €750,425.00 €9.86
    Sligo 65,357 €720,140.00 €11.02
    Roscommon 64,436 €771,559.00 €11.97
    Monaghan 61,273 €669,957.00 €10.93
    Fermanagh 61,170 €634,173.00 €10.37
    Carlow 56,875 €856,897.00 €15.07
    Longford 40,810 €650,484.00 €15.94
    Leitrim 31,972 €688,521.00 €21.54


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    #41
    nice_guy80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,723 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    You wouldn't mind the big advantages like population, sponsorship opportunities (a % of which I think should be collectively pooled and shared out), all players studying or working locally, best of facilities, playing almost every championship game at home

    But then for the GAA to go and financially rig the development money for 15+ years to even further skew the playing field for other counties?
    But unfair.


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    #42
    Perifect
    Closed Accounts Posts: 751 ✭✭✭Perifect


    Does anyone know where the money is going? This is a scandal! Anywhere to find the playing population of all counties? That table says that the lowest county got €634,173.00 and the 2nd highest county got €1,434,287.00. All counties within 800,000 of each other. Then you have Dublin spending €17,916,477.00. That's mental.


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    #43
    Perifect
    Closed Accounts Posts: 751 ✭✭✭Perifect


    nice_guy80 wrote: »
    You wouldn't mind the big advantages like population, sponsorship opportunities (a % of which I think should be collectively pooled and shared out), all players studying or working locally, best of facilities, playing almost every championship game at home

    But then for the GAA to go and financially rig the development money for 15+ years to even further skew the playing field for other counties?
    But unfair.

    It does seem very unfair. Why is it allowed? Why aren't people asking questions? No one seems to know what the money is spent on even.


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    #44
    Perifect
    Closed Accounts Posts: 751 ✭✭✭Perifect


    Oh wait, does this include the money they get from AIG, I just googled their sponsors. They have a 5 million deal with AIG. Is that where the money is coming from? Maybe other sponsors as well?


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    #45
    TrueGael
    Registered Users Posts: 294 ✭✭TrueGael


    https://www.dublingaa.ie/partners

    All these bad boys


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    #46
    joebloggs32
    Registered Users Posts: 1,591 ✭✭✭joebloggs32


    Clareman wrote: »
    I've no idea what the breakdown of the money is for, they could be gold plating Parnell Park for all I care, ultimately no matter how much money they have it's all about getting their squad of players ready to win matches which every other county have to do as well. Another point is that all Dublin's players are accounted for in regards to employment/student not every county can say that, looking at Lee Chin admitting to living off sponsorships.

    The 18 million refers to money being pumped into coaching and games development. Dublin get a wholly disproportionate figure compared to all others in this area. This over the last 15 years has led to the current scenario where by a steady stream of talent is constantly filtering through to their senior set up.

    The other figures spent on team preparation would show some counties spending on a par with Dublin. However strip out the mileage being paid to players travelling long distances then once again Dublin are outspending their opponents considerably on all the other expenses that go into running an intercounty team.


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    #47
    gaffer91
    Registered Users Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭gaffer91


    Clareman wrote: »

    When Kilkenny were going for a 5 in a row in hurling there wasn't talk about cutting their funding, it's up to the other teams to beat them, ultimately you can only have a max of 15 players on the pitch at any time, it's up to the opposition to beat them, if it was all down to funding then America would be the best rugby/soccer team in the world.

    It's the same old, same old every time the unfair advantages Dublin have are mentioned. Kilkenny won because of their own innate brilliance. They did not have any unfair advantages over the rest of the county like Dublin do. Their period of dominance was always going to be temporary.

    Dublin have a massive unfair funding advantage- both centrally and from their sponsorship deals which are multiples of other counties. There is no reason the sponsorship money couldn't be pooled and dished out to ensure all counties benefit. Combine this with population advantage, playing all games at home and less of a need to emigrate and you have a perfect storm for endless Dublin dominance. If you want to see the future of the All- Ireland series, look at what happened to the Leinster championship since 2005. This will eventually happen across the country as a whole if things continue on their current trajectory. Biased, blinkered Dubs always claim it is up to other teams to "step up" but it is almost impossible to do this when the standard has been set by a team with so many unfair advantages over you. MacKenna refers to Dublin as a "financially doped" team- it's a perfect description.

    The fact you can't see how all this extra money would help the "15 players on the pitch" is absolutely laughable also.

    If you truly believe that all the extra money makes no difference then you wouldn't mind it being withdrawn anyway?


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    #48
    DoctaDee
    Registered Users Posts: 6,593 ✭✭✭DoctaDee


    Once again people are choosing to ignore the bigger picture and are fixated on the central council grant for Dublin.

    I'll leave you with this - in 2017 all the other counties in Leinster received an additional 5.3 million in games development from the Leinster council, of which 2.3 million was spent on GPO's, . Dublin with 1.3 million has 78 GPO's, the rest of Leinster with approx 1.4 million has 79 GPO's.

    Make of it what you will but shine your light a little brighter on the complete issue instead of taking the likes of McKenna as the Bible on these matters


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    #49
    gaffer91
    Registered Users Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭gaffer91


    DoctaDee wrote: »
    Once again people are choosing to ignore the bigger picture and are fixated on the central council grant for Dublin.

    I'll leave you with this - in 2017 all the other countries in Leinster received an additional 5.3 million in games development from the Leinster council, of which 2.3 million was spent on GPO's, . Dublin with 1.3 million has 78 GPO's, the rest of Leinster with approx 1.4 million has 79 GPO's.

    Make of it what you will but shine your light a little brighter on the complete issue instead of taking the likes of McKenna as the Bible on these matters

    You're the one ignoring the bigger picture. The fact is, by whatever measure you want to use- total funding, per capita funding etc- Dublin received and continue to receive sums of money far in excess of every other county. This is before we even factor in their money from sponsorship deals.

    It accounts for a large part for their success. And it ensures the playing field is not level. There's no denying this.


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    #50
    The_Honeybadger
    Registered Users Posts: 4,154 ✭✭✭The_Honeybadger


    Perifect wrote: »
    Oh wait, does this include the money they get from AIG, I just googled their sponsors. They have a 5 million deal with AIG. Is that where the money is coming from? Maybe other sponsors as well?

    Afaik the figures also don’t include the additional circa €1m per year funding through the Irish sports council that Bertie arranged back in the 00’s

    Bulk of the money is spent on coaching and development officers who work in the schools and clubs. Turning off the tap would mean all these coaches would lose their jobs and that’s why a sharp reduction won’t happen, nor should it really. The aim should be to bring other counties up to this level of support.

    In terms of spending on the senior team comparing Dublin to other teams is utterly pointless. They don’t have anywhere near the same costs in terms of travel, subsistence and accommodation. This can run in to many hundreds of thousands for a lot of counties and is by far the biggest headache county boards face in running their teams.

    The defence for the funding all along has been that Dublin simply have had a golden generation and their success will pass. I am not really sure any more. The average age of their team is stagnant as they ease brilliant new players in each year.

    They are finally fulfilling the potential that was always there in a county that has the population and funding of a province. They will of course enter a fallow period at some stage in the future but will have a capacity to rebuild more quickly than any rival could ever hope to. Can’t see them ever not being one of the main contenders again tbh.

    All this while the game around the country is experiencing an unprecedented player drain and other counties are being rebuffed when seeking seemingly very reasonable funding supports (If McKenna is to be believed). I don’t know.


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    #51
    The_Honeybadger
    Registered Users Posts: 4,154 ✭✭✭The_Honeybadger


    Just to add that the ‘money doesn’t kick the ball over the bar’ thing is the greatest load of nonsense I’ve ever heard. There is a reason professional sports teams the world over invest millions in sports science, coaching, high performance programmes and statistical analysis. It makes players perform better.

    Yes there has to be innate talent there to begin with but getting that additional 10% out of players can be the difference.


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    #52
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,923 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    Not too long ago GAA in the capital was, at best, the third sport, major changes and investment was needed or else the GAA would be lost in Dublin, the people involved in Dublin GAA saw that changes were needed and instead of coming up with some silly PR "5 Year Plan" they put in a grass roots plan which is now coming good, it didn't happen overnight, as someone mentioned, some of the money was given by Bertie, Bertie hasn't been Taoiseach for 11 years, he hasn't been a TD for 8, the money that was put in was put in back then to set things up.

    I also like to believe that if any other county came to the GAA saying that they had a plan for developing GAA in their county (not just a senior team) that they would be given funding. Throwing resources at a problem won't solve a problem, using resources correctly will.


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    #53
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,923 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    The_Honeybadger wrote: »
    Just to add that the ‘money doesn’t kick the ball over the bar’ thing is the greatest load of nonsense I’ve ever heard. There is a reason professional sports teams the world over invest millions in sports science, coaching, high performance programmes and statistical analysis. It makes players perform better.

    Yes there has to be innate talent there to begin with but getting that additional 10% out of players can be the difference.

    That's why the Dublin hurlers are contesting All Ireland finals year after year then :rolleyes:


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    #54
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,923 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    gaffer91 wrote: »
    Dublin have a massive unfair funding advantage- both centrally and from their sponsorship deals which are multiples of other counties. There is no reason the sponsorship money couldn't be pooled and dished out to ensure all counties benefit.

    Limerick GAA get a blank check from JP McManus every year, Pat McDonagh is very generous with Galway GAA. Money is pooled and dished out via grants from central council but counties should be allowed promote themselves, ffs even NFL teams are allowed keep their own sponsorship revenues and they are the most co-operative league in the world.


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    #55
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,923 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    J@ysus I can't believe I'm defending Dublin like this, I should step away for a while :)

    For me, funding is an excuse, yes Dublin have more money but they don't have more players on the pitch, the best sports science/nutrionilist/analysis/etc. in the world can't go out on the pitch for you, you still need the players. When Dublin went from 95 to 2011 without getting to an All Ireland final no-one was complaining about funding, even up to a couple of years ago people weren't complaining, now that there's such a gap between them an everyone else it's easy to blame funding. As I said, when Kilkenny were winning 4 in a rows something was going to have to be done, the Leinster championship was a joke, etc. etc. a mixture between Kilkenny getting older while other teams got better means we have the most competitive championship in decades, the same will happen in football in time.


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    #56
    The_Honeybadger
    Registered Users Posts: 4,154 ✭✭✭The_Honeybadger


    Clareman wrote: »
    That's why the Dublin hurlers are contesting All Ireland finals year after year then :rolleyes:

    Look at the base they were coming from vs the footballers when the money started rolling in, completely daft comparison.

    They are doing well at underage though and success in hurling will come in time


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    #57
    The_Honeybadger
    Registered Users Posts: 4,154 ✭✭✭The_Honeybadger


    Clareman wrote: »
    J@ysus I can't believe I'm defending Dublin like this, I should step away for a while :)

    For me, funding is an excuse, yes Dublin have more money but they don't have more players on the pitch, the best sports science/nutrionilist/analysis/etc. in the world can't go out on the pitch for you, you still need the players. When Dublin went from 95 to 2011 without getting to an All Ireland final no-one was complaining about funding, even up to a couple of years ago people weren't complaining, now that there's such a gap between them an everyone else it's easy to blame funding. As I said, when Kilkenny were winning 4 in a rows something was going to have to be done, the Leinster championship was a joke, etc. etc. a mixture between Kilkenny getting older while other teams got better means we have the most competitive championship in decades, the same will happen in football in time.

    So funding and professional level preparation does not impact performance? If that is really what you are claiming I don’t know what to say to you. You either don’t understand, or more likely are not willing to acknowledge the difference money makes in preparing a team in high level sports. Why do teams bother if it makes no difference?


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    #58
    gaffer91
    Registered Users Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭gaffer91


    Clareman wrote: »
    For me, funding is an excuse, yes Dublin have more money but they don't have more players on the pitch, the best sports science/nutrionilist/analysis/etc. in the world can't go out on the pitch for you, you still need the players.

    You honestly haven't a clue about Gaelic Football in 2019 if you think this. Not a clue.

    The money helps you develop the players significantly more than you would otherwise- how can you not see this?

    Again, if you think the extra money is no object, and makes no difference to results, then you shouldn't be opposed to it being withdrawn.
    Clareman wrote: »

    When Dublin went from 95 to 2011 without getting to an All Ireland final no-one was complaining about funding, even up to a couple of years ago people weren't complaining, now that there's such a gap between them an everyone else it's easy to blame funding. As I said, when Kilkenny were winning 4 in a rows something was going to have to be done, the Leinster championship was a joke, etc. etc. a mixture between Kilkenny getting older while other teams got better means we have the most competitive championship in decades, the same will happen in football in time.

    The massive increase in funding only started in the mid 2000s. And success followed- Leinster Dominance, followed by All Ireland dominance.

    Once again, you've ignored the many differences behind the causes for Dublin's success rather than Kilkenny's success, probably deliberately. I suggest you read the previous posts to help you gain some insight.

    The same won't happen in football if things aren't changed- what's more likely is that the All Ireland will become like the Leinster championship.

    If you're so keen to bandy about claims about Galway and Limerick can we see some concrete figures please? Even if this money does come anywhere close to Dublin, it further proves that all money should be centrally pooled and fairly distributed

    Why are you so keen to defend Dublin getting way more funding than every other county?


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    #59
    The_Kew_Tour
    Registered Users Posts: 34,044 ✭✭✭✭The_Kew_Tour


    Letrim getting help too from few in States

    Stop them!!


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    #60
    ShyMets
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,469 ✭✭✭ShyMets


    We haven't had one of these threads for a while:)

    Me thinks it will end badly!


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    #61
    Inspector Coptoor
    Registered Users Posts: 6,818 ✭✭✭Inspector Coptoor


    At the end of the day, Dublin are a county with a population bigger than almost all other counties put together.

    Dublin is now a county in name only and a province in reality.

    I love watching Dublin play.
    I’m a culchie living in Dublin and just had a son who will grow up in Dublin.

    By the time he is 18 I’d be hoping the geographical area of Dublin will be fielding at least 2 and hopefully 4 teams in the senior football championship.

    It would mean more participation and more opportunities for more players to play inter county football.

    On the issue of spending, what’s killing most counties, esp Mayo, Donegal, Galway, Roscommon, is paying up to €600,000 a year in mileage to players for driving down from Dublin for training and matches.


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