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e-scooters to become legal in Germany

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    #32
    dashcamdanny
    Registered Users Posts: 1,920 ✭✭✭dashcamdanny


    So . It seems they are completely illegal.

    Any reports of Garda seizing they yet? I have not heard of any.


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    #33
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    dashcamdanny wrote: »
    So . It seems they are completely illegal.

    Any reports of Garda seizing they yet? I have not heard of any.

    There have been several over the years which have appeared in the Garda Twitter thread.

    Here's one:

    https://twitter.com/GardaTraffic/status/890477022245519361?s=19


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    #34
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,736 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    _Brian wrote: »
    Escooters with motors, batteries and riders are heavier than regular bikes, one hitting you at 25 kph will do substantial damage.

    License, and insurance is a reasonable expectation, tax I wouldn’t bother with to incentivise their use over cars.

    they're not heavier than regular bikes, in fact they're probably lighter than most cheapo bikes and considerably lighter than eBikes. As with a bike most of the weight is going to be comprised of the person on it.

    They're not dangerous, license and insurance is total overkill.


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    #35
    Dj Stiggie
    Registered Users Posts: 619 ✭✭✭Dj Stiggie


    I live in Copenhagen where they're completely legal and treated the same as bikes. There's also a private company that rents them out through an app so they're littered all over the city, then you go up to one and unlock it with your phone. This means that people have no regard for where they leave them, often they're abandoned in the middle of a footpath, and riders frequently drift from the amazing cycle lanes to the footpath then back again. It's like the South Park episode really


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    #36
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    GM228 wrote: »
    There have been several over the years which have appeared in the Garda Twitter thread.

    Here's one:

    https://twitter.com/GardaTraffic/status/890477022245519361?s=19

    I don't remember ever seeing any of the normal standup, push to start, e-scooters being seized.

    They all seem to be the ones with petrol engines or big powerful ones with a seat, etc. like in this tweet. Almost regular scooters

    I'd suspect those ones would all been banned anyway if legislation was introduced definitely legalising the stand-up push to start ones.

    Also I have to say given the absolute bollocking that the above tweeted received and how unpopular it seems to be, I'd suggest that the Gardai are very much out of step with popular public opinion.

    I'd also suggest that they maybe looking the other way on the stand-up ones, given that I'm seeing them multiple times a day now, every day, often riding right past Gardai who seem to busily ignore them.


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    #37
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    ThomasJ85 wrote: »
    Germany are ahead of the times really! We need to start pushing the government to change things. An absolute embarrassment of a country we are!

    Have you cycled German Cycle lanes ? if not it's worth taking a holiday just for that. A lot of people go to cycle those fabulous cycle lanes.

    Ever time I go over I have to be constantly reminded that I don't have to "keep to the right" because I'm not on a road, I just fear a car coming at 80 Km/h around a bend all the time , I just can't get my head around it.

    It's a beautifully clean country, it's a pleasure cycling in the country over there and you will not find as much as a coke bottle in the ditches compared to bags of rubbish littering the Irish countryside which is a complete embarrassment every time the outlaws come over.

    Every year I go to Baden-Württemberg to a place called Michelbach an der Bilz and first thing I do rain or shine is take to the cycle lanes .

    Cycle lanes through farm land , yes you heard that right, "farm land" and through the woods and from Village to Village , Town to Town, it's cycling Heaven.

    A lot of fabulous things about Germany except Stuttgart Airport which is a disaster trying to get through security !


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    #38
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    bk wrote: »
    I don't remember ever seeing any of the normal standup, push to start, e-scooters being seized.

    They all seem to be the ones with petrol engines or big powerful ones with a seat, etc. like in this tweet. Almost regular scooters

    I'd suspect those ones would all been banned anyway if legislation was introduced definitely legalising the stand-up push to start ones.

    Also I have to say given the absolute bollocking that the above tweeted received and how unpopular it seems to be, I'd suggest that the Gardai are very much out of step with popular public opinion.

    I'd also suggest that they maybe looking the other way on the stand-up ones, given that I'm seeing them multiple times a day now, every day, often riding right past Gardai who seem to busily ignore them.

    There was discussion on another forum about the legally of these things.

    If its capable of moving you without physical effort its a MPV and you need a M licence minimum. If its ok for someone with no driving licence to ride one of these, then I should not need a licence for a similar, petrol powered scooter.

    I would also be scared of having one of these things in my house. They tend to catch fire..


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    #39
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    There was discussion on another forum about the legally of these things.

    If its capable of moving you without physical effort its a MPV and you need a M licence minimum. If its ok for someone with no driving licence to ride one of these, then I should not need a licence for a similar, petrol powered scooter.

    It is a bit of a grey area as the electric ones require you to scoot a bit before the electric motor kicks in, thus some argue (perhaps wrongly) that they are electric assistance, rather then drive.

    I'd be interested to see if any of these electric scooters (the stand-up, push) ones have ever actually gone in front of a judge. I don't think they have, not that I have heard anyway. That is why it is such a legal grey area, until it goes before a judge and s/he makes a decision, it will remain so.

    Frankly what I've learned from discussions on forums is that peoples understanding of how the law works in Ireland is pretty terrible and it isn't as black and white as people think it is.

    When something new and unique comes before a judge, that is a big deal. A judge gets to set precedence then and thus such a case would get far more attention then normal.

    A judge might ask:
    - Does this fall under the definition of a MPV? Maybe, but not certain
    - Did such devices exist when the definitions were devised? No
    - If they had, would they have been including or excluded? Probably excluded.
    - Are these more similar to a MPV or more similar to other excluded devices like electric bikes and electric wheelchairs? More like Bikes, wheelcharis
    - Do these pose a danger to the operator or others more in line with a regular MPV or an excluded bike or powered wheelchair? Again, bikes, wheelchairs
    - Is is actually possible to get license and insurance for these devices at the moment? No
    - Would their be a public benefit to requiring these to have a license/insurance or not? Probably not, most likely major public benefit to not.

    Of course, you never know how any particular judge will decide, but I really wouldn't be so certain that a judge would rule against these. I kind of suspect if it ever went before a judge, they would likely give the Gardai a bollocking for wasting their time, kick it out of court and send a note to the government that these need to be clearly legislated for.

    This is why this is such a grey area, why the Gardai say one thing, but the Department of Transport another. These didn't exist when the legislation was drafted and thus it isn't 100% clear how a judge would decide on them and it wouldn't be clear until one does or new legislation specifically for them is.

    Don't get me wrong, it should be cleared up and specifically legislated for. That would be the best for everyone. I'd suspect they will get defined the same as electric bikes, with the same power and speed limits.

    That would then allow these to be widely sold here and used by people, while allowing the Gardai to actually go after the ones that go beyond the limits set out.

    Given how much of a PR disaster that tweet by the Gardai was, how their hasn't been any similar tweets or stories of seized scooters in the past two years since that tweet, yet e-scooters have massively increased on our streets, with me seeing dozens every day, passing right be Gardai, it is clear that they have been told to look the other way for now. Probably until legislation is properly drafted.


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    #40
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    These scooters are all illegal in Ireland because if they have no pedelec system and if the motor engages while no pedals are being turned or by using a throttle and are over 250 watts of power then they are illegal and can not be used on public streets and footpaths as they are classed as motor vehicles/mopeheads.

    God help anyone if they hit someone with one of these scooters as they will have some compensation and legal bills to pay and possibly a criminal conviction for knowingly using a illegally powered motor vehicle without insurance and or license and ignorance of the Law is no exception. You buy it it's your job to know the legalities.

    The same goes for hoverboards etc are all illegal in public in Ireland.

    It is not illegal to buy or sell them yet that I am aware.


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    #41
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Great job Mad_Lad, so can you point me at Irish case law on these?

    Not legislation that was drafted prior to their invention, actual case law?

    Again this is a great example of people being clueless of how the law works here.


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    #42
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    There was discussion on another forum about the legally of these things.

    If its capable of moving you without physical effort its a MPV and you need a M licence minimum. If its ok for someone with no driving licence to ride one of these, then I should not need a licence for a similar, petrol powered scooter.

    I would also be scared of having one of these things in my house. They tend to catch fire..

    It's good you brought this up,

    Most people are not in the slightest bit aware of the dangers of lithium batteries.

    I always emphasise to people, never, ever charge a battery for ebike/e-scooter-hoverboard etc unattended.

    If charging ebike batteries etc, remove them and charge on the Hob with extractor fan on ( make sure the hob is cold :-) ) and have a fire alarm close by with blankets.

    These batteries can catch fire at any time even in storage. Never charge in a non fire proof location , there is not just you to think about but others in the house, Kids, neighbors etc.

    And do not ever put water on a lithium battery that is on fire as it will become even more flammable

    The smoke is also highly toxic so if a fire occurs, evacuate


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    #43
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Mad_Lad, have you had experience of your EV car bursting into flames like that? :D


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    #44
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    bk wrote: »
    Mad_Lad, have you had experience of your EV car bursting into flames like that? :D

    lol No, electric cars are completely different and are built to far higher standards than a lot of batteries assembled in China. Not all but a lot but even so if it's in the house it should never, ever be trusted.


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    #45
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    I agree with legalizing these, theres already tonnes in dublin anyway. But a helmet and high vis should be mandated just like people on bicycles should have to wear.


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    #46
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Deleted User wrote: »
    lol No, electric cars are completely different and are built to far higher standards than a lot of batteries assembled in China. Not all but a lot but even so if it's in the house it should never, ever be trusted.

    They are exactly the same lithium ion batteries used in smart phones, laptops and EVs. And yes many (if not most) EV batteries are made in China too.

    My point is that you are scaremongering about batteries. Of course a certain amount of caution with all batteries is a good idea. But seeing such comments coming from you is rather ironic as I often see similar scaremongering from ICE drivers about EV's
    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    I agree with legalizing these, theres already tonnes in dublin anyway. But a helmet and high vis should be mandated just like people on bicycles should have to wear.

    Bicycles don't require High Viz and helmets. And there is lots of evidence that forcing legislation on that actually increases the danger faced by cyclists.


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    #47
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    bk wrote: »
    They are exactly the same lithium ion batteries used in smart phones, laptops and EVs. And yes many (if not most) EV batteries are made in China too.

    My point is that you are scaremongering about batteries. Of course a certain amount of caution with all batteries is a good idea. But seeing such comments coming from you is rather ironic as I often see similar scaremongering from ICE drivers about EV's



    Bicycles don't require High Viz and helmets. And there is lots of evidence that forcing legislation on that actually increases the danger faced by cyclists.

    I know theres not, but there should be, please explain how it does ?


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    #48
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    pedestrians should have arm bands on each arm minimum it's hard to see them sometimes when driving.

    If they are legalised they will not be allowed on foot paths where I see them mostly, they'll be on the street and our streets are not safe for cyclists never mind people on these scooters.


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    #49
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    bk wrote: »
    They are exactly the same lithium ion batteries used in smart phones, laptops and EVs. And yes many (if not most) EV batteries are made in China too.

    My point is that you are scaremongering about batteries. Of course a certain amount of caution with all batteries is a good idea. But seeing such comments coming from you is rather ironic as I often see similar scaremongering from ICE drivers about EV's



    Bicycles don't require High Viz and helmets. And there is lots of evidence that forcing legislation on that actually increases the danger faced by cyclists.

    They are not the same, most of the electric car batteries are made using pouch cells , most ebike batteries are made from 18650 cylindrical cells.

    The difference being the quality of EV batteries is much higher, and the assembly of the packs is much higher and the electronics are built and tested to a far higher standard.

    Ebike batteries are not crushed, smashed etc like ev batteries are for testing.

    The likes of the Gen I Nissan Leaf battery would not catch fire only smoke , the current gen I am not so sure.

    There are different chemistry some a lot safer than others.

    My question to anyone here , if it's known that ebike, scooter, hoverboard batteries can catch fire would they trust that battery with their families life or the lives of anyone else in the building and all for the sake of taking a little precaution and charge the battery in a fire proof location with smoke alarm ?

    We have seen Tesla batteries catch fire because they use a much less safer chemistry than the other Auto companies and the penalty of this is power density meaning less battery capacity.

    If a car catches fire it's mostly going to be outside and will not cause the potential devastating consequences and loss of life than an ebike battery setting ht house on fire !


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    #50
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    I know theres not, but there should be, please explain how it does ?

    There are various ways.

    When they introduced mandatory helmet laws in Australia, it massively reduced the amount of cyclists, yet the number of deaths of cyclists actually went up:

    - Saftey in numbers. The more cyclists on the roads, the more likely a motorist is to expect a cyclist to be their and use caution. These helmet laws often radically cut the number of cyclists, which results in motorists being less careful driving.

    It is pretty noticable that almost no one in Amsterdam or Copenhagen wear helmets or high viz, yet they have the highest cycling rates in the world and the least accidents. Saftey in numbers, there are so many cyclists their, drivers always expect their to be a cyclist and drive more carefully.

    Also mandatory laws lead to less people cycling, thus more congestion and people get less exercise. Which can compound our already serious weight problems we are now experiencing in the west.

    Research has also shown that when cyclists wear helmets and high viz, that motorists drive closer to them and give them less space, then when not wearing a helmet.

    Their really is a lot of psychology going on with this subject and lot of very unexpected results when you study the subject around the world.

    If you truly care about cyclists and want them to be safer, then demand that better, fully segregated cycling infrastructure is built and the more people are encouraged to cycle.

    Safety in numbers and well designed infrastructure is what protects cyclists.


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    #51
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Deleted User wrote: »
    They are not the same, most of the electric car batteries are made using pouch cells , most ebike batteries are made from 18650 cylindrical cells.

    Err... 18650 cycles, so exactly the same ones in the Tesla Model S and X...

    Even pouch cells aren't fundamentally different. They are still lithium ion and can still catch fire. The batteries in mobile phones and laptops are pouch cells and they catch fire all the time too. Galaxy Note most famously....

    BMW i3's like yours also catch fire:
    https://insideevs.com/bmw-i3-rex-burns-to-a-crisp-near-barcelona/

    Not that I'm terribly concerned by all this, it isn't like ICE cars don't also regularly burst into flames too.

    You are just scaremongering and spreading FUD about a technology you don't like.

    Of course a bit of caution when it comes to all batteries and electricity is of course a good idea. Just like ICE cars and gas appliances. Which is why I have multiple very good smoke alarms (Nest Protects) to protect my family. But such incidents are relatively rare.


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    #52
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    bk wrote: »
    Err... 18650 cycles, so exactly the same ones in the Tesla Model S and X...

    Even pouch cells aren't fundamentally different. They are still lithium ion and can still catch fire. The batteries in mobile phones and laptops are pouch cells and they catch fire all the time too. Galaxy Note most famously....

    BMW i3's like yours also catch fire:
    https://insideevs.com/bmw-i3-rex-burns-to-a-crisp-near-barcelona/

    Not that I'm terribly concerned by all this, it isn't like ICE cars don't also regularly burst into flames too.

    You are just scaremongering and spreading FUD about a technology you don't like.


    Of course a bit of caution when it comes to all batteries and electricity is of course a good idea. Just like ICE cars and gas appliances. Which is why I have multiple very good smoke alarms (Nest Protects) to protect my family. But such incidents are relatively rare.

    Eah, what technology did I say I did not like ? lol

    I am stating a simple fact.

    An ebike, escooter, hoverboard battery can catch fire those are facts it's not scaremongering at all.

    I am making People aware so they can be cautious and not take any chances.

    Some battery manufacturers are better than others , Bosch, Yamaha etc will ensure their batteries are assembles to the highest standards but they can not guarantee the battery won't catch fire.

    My BMW i3 can catch fire all it wants I couldn't care less as long as I got time to stop the car and get myself and family out and I'm not going to be asleep in it with my family !

    And yes, pouch cells can be very different, those in the Nissan leaf will not catch fire which is more to do with the chemistry than the cell format.

    LiFeP04 is another that will not catch fire but it could get hot enough to ignite combustible materials if close by.


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    #53
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    bk wrote: »
    There are various ways.

    When they introduced mandatory helmet laws in Australia, it massively reduced the amount of cyclists, yet the number of deaths of cyclists actually went up:

    - Saftey in numbers. The more cyclists on the roads, the more likely a motorist is to expect a cyclist to be their and use caution. These helmet laws often radically cut the number of cyclists, which results in motorists being less careful driving.

    It is pretty noticable that almost no one in Amsterdam or Copenhagen wear helmets or high viz, yet they have the highest cycling rates in the world and the least accidents. Saftey in numbers, there are so many cyclists their, drivers always expect their to be a cyclist and drive more carefully.

    Also mandatory laws lead to less people cycling, thus more congestion and people get less exercise. Which can compound our already serious weight problems we are now experiencing in the west.

    Research has also shown that when cyclists wear helmets and high viz, that motorists drive closer to them and give them less space, then when not wearing a helmet.

    Their really is a lot of psychology going on with this subject and lot of very unexpected results when you study the subject around the world.

    If you truly care about cyclists and want them to be safer, then demand that better, fully segregated cycling infrastructure is built and the more people are encouraged to cycle.

    Safety in numbers and well designed infrastructure is what protects cyclists.

    why does having to wear a helmet massively decrease the number of cyclists though, its not like helmets are expensive ?


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    #54
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    why does having to wear a helmet massively decrease the number of cyclists though, its not like helmets are expensive ?

    Again a variety of reasons, but it was proven in Australia to do exactly that.

    - Makes cycling looks less attractive, don't want to mesh up your hair.
    - Having to carry a helmet around to jump on a Dublin City Bike, type service.
    - Makes cycling look to be more dangerous then it actually is, which in turn discourages people from cycling.

    The last one is particularly important. Cycling is NOT dangerous. It is actually less dangerous then walking. Yet by making people dress in bright yellow vests and helmets, you are sending the message that it is dangerous and should be avoided.

    It is misplaced nanny safety culture.

    Rather then doing what actually makes cyclists safer, high quality cycling infrastructure and more people cycling, you are instead making it look scarier then it actually is.

    The truth is a helmet will make zero difference to the majority of cycling accidents. Most are caused by cyclists getting caught under left turning trucks, with crashes with high speed cars being the second highest cause. A helmet will do feck all in either of those.

    Again if you actually care about cyclists saftey, then demand our government build high quality, segregated cycling infrastructure and promote more cyclists.


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    #55
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It is not illegal to buy or sell them yet that I am aware.

    Really, then how can you buy them at Three.ie stores?

    https://www.three.ie/brand/xiaomi/

    Scroll down, under Eco Products.

    It would seem that the Gardai Press office have clarified that ones that you have to push off to start aren't classified as MPV's and are fine:

    https://goosed.ie/electric-scooters-and-the-law-in-ireland/
    Or as the Garda Press Office puts it, “this office understands is whether they are powered solely by an electric or mechanical means or assisted, i.e. using human power to initiate movement”.

    That would all explain why so many of them have appeared on our streets and why the Gardai have taken no action. So it turns out it wasn't so black and white after all.

    I still think they should be legislated for, similar to Germany, to remove all this silly uncertainty.


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    #56
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    bk wrote: »
    Again a variety of reasons, but it was proven in Australia to do exactly that.

    - Makes cycling looks less attractive, don't want to mesh up your hair.
    - Having to carry a helmet around to jump on a Dublin City Bike, type service.
    - Makes cycling look to be more dangerous then it actually is, which in turn discourages people from cycling.

    The last one is particularly important. Cycling is NOT dangerous. It is actually less dangerous then walking. Yet by making people dress in bright yellow vests and helmets, you are sending the message that it is dangerous and should be avoided.

    It is misplaced nanny safety culture.

    Rather then doing what actually makes cyclists safer, high quality cycling infrastructure and more people cycling, you are instead making it look scarier then it actually is.

    The truth is a helmet will make zero difference to the majority of cycling accidents. Most are caused by cyclists getting caught under left turning trucks, with crashes with high speed cars being the second highest cause. A helmet will do feck all in either of those.

    Again if you actually care about cyclists saftey, then demand our government build high quality, segregated cycling infrastructure and promote more cyclists.

    But theyll wear those spasticated lycra outfits, cyclists are an odd bunch


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    #57
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    But theyll wear those spasticated lycra outfits, cyclists are an odd bunch

    Oh god.... Is that the level of conversation?!!!

    Because you know there are all different type of people. From sports cyclists who wear lyca (and always wear helmets BTW) who go at top speed, down to children, grannies and just commuters who are going A to B at a normal speed.


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    #58
    sharper
    Registered Users Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/man-has-lucky-escape-after-his-scooter-collides-with-dublin-bus-904713.html
    A man on a scooter had a lucky escape last night when he collided with a Dublin Bus.

    Taoiseach says extension of Brexit date 'not inevitable'
    The incident occurred in the south of the city yesterday evening.

    Gardaí posted pictures of the crash online showing the bike wedged under the double-decker, and they warned people to stay safe when on the roads.

    They said the rider had a lucky escape.


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    #59
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Looks to be a regular scooter, not the push to start e-scooters being discussed here.

    Either way a crash is a crash, they happen every day unfortunately, I'm not sure what the point is.


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    #60
    sharper
    Registered Users Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    bk wrote: »
    Either way a crash is a crash, they happen every day unfortunately, I'm not sure what the point is.

    No point past the obvious of something timely related to the topic. For people thinking about scooters of any kind it's worth considering they'll be sharing with vehicular traffic in places.

    Bus drivers seem to do pretty well sharing with cyclists but it's difficult to see everything.


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    #61
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    bk wrote: »
    Really, then how can you buy them at Three.ie stores?

    https://www.three.ie/brand/xiaomi/

    Scroll down, under Eco Products.

    It would seem that the Gardai Press office have clarified that ones that you have to push off to start aren't classified as MPV's and are fine:

    https://goosed.ie/electric-scooters-and-the-law-in-ireland/

    That would all explain why so many of them have appeared on our streets and why the Gardai have taken no action. So it turns out it wasn't so black and white after all.

    I still think they should be legislated for, similar to Germany, to remove all this silly uncertainty.

    Thanks for the link but it does not really remove the grey area, it's all well and good until you end up in court and some Barrister discovers some law that makes them illegal and you end up paying a tonne of money to someone.

    I think you misunderstood me there at the beginning of your quote, I said that they "are not" illegal to buy or sell.


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