Th 1916 Era: Things I don't understand

bobbyss wrote: »

If I was a young man in my mid twenties in the years before the Rising and I wanted to become politically involved, I guess I would listen to and probably join Sinn Fein. Maybe I might think the IPP had had its day and I wanted something more dynamic. Am I right in saying that Sinn Fein at that time was in favour of some form of independence without using violence to achieve that?

Yes, Sinn Fein was in favour of a type of independence achieved by non-violent passive resistence, whereby Ireland would have the same relationship with Britain as Hungary had with Austria in the Austro-Hungarian Empire. There would be a parliament in Dublin to deal with internal Irish affairs. But there would be a common head of state in the monarch. At the time of the Rising, however, Sinn Fein was a tiny group with virtually no influence. It had a few councillors on Dublin Corporation, I think.

bobbyss wrote: »

If I was prepared to fight for Irish independence, wouldn't I have joined the IRB? An organisation long in existence. Experienced. An illegal organisation? Dedicated men?

Why would I join the Irish Volunteers in lieu of the IRB? What reason would I have to do that? Why were there two such militant organisations? The IVs were formed in 1914, I think, and involved in gun running, drilling etc. Why weren't the IRB doing the same? What would the leadership of the IRB (Who led it in fact at that time?) make of this new upstart organisation trying to move in to our patch.

Were some people members of both the IRB and the Volunteers? Why?

In the early 20th Century, the IRB was seen as a relic of a bygone era, a social club for men who talked about revolution but did very little to bring it about. That began to change when Thomas Clarke returned to Ireland in 1907, recruiting serious young men like Sean McDermott to the organisation. They were involved in gunrunning, smuggling small quantities of arms into the country. Still, the majority of nationalists probably thought the IRB unrealistic in its aim of achieving independence through violence.

The Irish Volunteers (IV) were popular because they were allied with the Irish Party and the Irish Party dominated Catholic, nationalist politics. Young lads were more likely to join if their friends, GAA team mates joined. The leadership of the IRB was suspicious of the IV and infiltrated the organisation from the beginning.

bobbyss wrote: »

If the Volunteers were openly drilling, why didn't the legitimate government of the day ie the London government immediately clamp down and ban this organisation from day one and arrest all those drilling. Surely there can be no more direct threat to democracy that men drilling, gun running etc?

The British government was distracted and divided. It was distracted from Irish affairs by riding tensions with Germany, strikes in Britain itself etc. It was also divided. The opposition Conservative Party supported the Ulster Unionists in establishing a paramilitary organisation called the Ulster Volunteer Force in oder to resist home rule. (It was not illegal to drill with weapons.) The governing Liberal Party, dependent on the Irish Party to stay in government, was reluctant to move against the IV, though the police did intercept weapons imports from abroad.

bobbyss wrote: »

When Pearse declared a Republic at what point did the government recognize it? The 1918 election as an election throughout the British Isles and when the Dail met it approved a Constitution. They declared themselves the Irish Government!

How can the British Government accept this for one minute? Since when do parts of a country go around and declare their own governments with their own constitution?

Was this 'Dail' (self proclaimed) legal or illegal? When was it recognized?

The British government did not recognise the Republic until Ireland left the Commonwealth in 1949. It declared Dail Eireann illegal in September 1919.

bobbyss wrote: »

The relationship between the IRB and the IVs is still a grey area for me. Are you saying the IRB were a waning or spent force by 1916? Why were so many of the leaders members of both organisations

I wouldn't say the IRB was a waning or spent force. Clarke, McDermott and others revived it from 1907 onwards. But its membership was small because most Irish nationalists considered unrealistic its aim of achieving a republic through violent rebellion.
IRB members joined the IV in order to use it to recruit new members and maybe gain control of it. The IV was much more popular than the IRB; its aim of achieving home rule was considered more realistic. IRB men infiltrated virtually every organisation in Ireland: the GAA, Sinn Fein, the Gaelic League etc. to recruit and spread propaganda. As it happened, the split in the IV in 1914 on the issue of Irishmen fighting for Britain in the World War played into the hands of the IRB. The IRB effectively gained control of the anti-war minority IV and led them into a rebellion two years later, the 1916 Rising.

bobbyss wrote: »

However, the essence of what I do not understand is this:

Today the Government is responsible for the running of the country. I have no idea what it spends on capital expenditure. I have no idea how much it spends on motorways or hospitals or on schools. The government has loans from other governments maybe? Maybe from international organisations like the World Bank? It has trade agreements with all kinds of other countries. All legal and binding business.

Now.

Pre 1916 the British Government would have had exactly the same responsibilities regarding Ireland. Capital expenditure, roads, hospitals-whatever.

So when Pearse declared a Republic, where exactly did he think the finances of running a country were going to come from if he wanted to cut links with our paymaster as Britain then was?

No, governments in the early 20th Century did not have the same responsibilities as governments today. It was an era of proper classical liberalism, according to which governments did not like intervening in the economy. Economic development was left largely to the private sector. The railway system, for example, was privately owned. While the exchequer did finance the building of primary schools and paid the teachers' wages, few people went to second or third level institutions; most secondary schools were run by religious organisations and were most hospitals. The idea that governments should draw up plans for the economic development of their countries, improve infrastructure etc. only became popular after the Second World War.
Therefore, Pearse, like the vast majority of the 1916 rebels and Irish republicans in general, gave little thought to economics. (Arthur Griffith was interested in it, but he was the exception to the rule.) What motivated him was a desire for an independent, Catholic and Gaelic Ireland. Economic issues could be worried about after independence was achieved.

panchosanza wrote: »

The IRB was a secret organisation; it couldn't have open-air drills or any military training involving more than a handful of members at a time. It infiltrated many organisations including the Gaelic League and Sinn Féin

In 1887 it not merely infiltrated the GAA, then just 3 years old, but had a full scale coup, expelling branches which did not bow to the IRB masters.
The leader of this coup was of all things, chairman of a Poor Law Board of Guardians.
It took a long period of mediation by Archbishop Croke to restore influence of the majority.

No doubt the IRB performed similar stunts in other bodies.

Interestingly DeValera refused to join the IRB because it was a secret body. He considered taking an oath to it was immoral.

panchosanza wrote: »

The Irish Volunteers was an open orgaination founded in opposition to the Ulster Volunteers; they were respectively pro- and anti- Home Rule militias; both had extreme and moderate wings. The Volunteers were infiltrated covertly by the IRB and overtly by the IPP and split accordingly. :

Sometimes the past is another country. According to the Wikipedia figures, only 7% of the Volunteer's stayed on as the "the Irish Volunteers", after the 1914 split (approximately 13,500 out of 188,500). The rest of the National Volunteers believed the best way to further Home Rule and Ireland's interests was to support the allied war effort.

Perhaps they did not wish to be seen at O'Connell Bridge, and went right onto Marlboro' Street, then left onto Lower Abbey Street.

It is also possible that an error was made in the text and was not spotted by proof readers due to the latter being grammatical purists, lacking in local knowledge. I came across this in a memoir by Sean McBride.