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Discovery 2x05 - "Saints of Imperfection" [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

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    #62
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    Turtwig wrote: »
    Enjoying it so far. Though not thinking too deeply about it.

    Seemed kind of hinted that the admiral of the federation getting Pike and Leland to "reconcile" was actually Georgiou using her "cloaking disguise" tech.

    huh... was that why the 'you're a long way from home'?
    didn't pick that up at all


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    #63
    TheValeyard
    Registered Users Posts: 12,207 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    pixelburp wrote: »
    Hmmm correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the admiral one of those quick to go with the genocide plan in season 1? Plus, why was she on the section 31 ship at all (beyond budget / narrative convenience)? I get 31 are there to get their hands dirty but she seemed awfully quick to resign herself to that fact, and push Pike into swallowing it.

    So, I wonder if the admiral is going to be the larger Big Bad here, in the grand tradition of Trek's evil admirals? Leland seems more like an attack dog, while Georghiu appears to be on a slow redemption arc; I'm theorising the admiral might be the one calling the shots to shadow Discovery. Maybe Spock knows The Truth, the murder charges are trumped up, with Section 31 out to silence Spock before he can talk to anyone (Pike, Burnham etc)

    This sounds exactly how S2 will play out. The trauma of the War and devastation of Starbase One, along with her capture has turned her to the club of evil admirals (what is it with evil admirals and Star Trek?) Could even see Captain Marcus maybe, before he becomes evil Admiral Marcus.

    Fcuk Putin. Glory to Ukraine!



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    #64
    TheValeyard
    Registered Users Posts: 12,207 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    Turtwig wrote: »
    Enjoying it so far. Though not thinking too deeply about it.

    Seemed kind of hinted that the admiral of the federation getting Pike and Leland to "reconcile" was actually Georgiou using her "cloaking disguise" tech.

    That be clever alright. S31 are using Discovery for some unknown nefarious plot.

    Fcuk Putin. Glory to Ukraine!



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    #65
    Goodshape
    Registered Users Posts: 8,488 ✭✭✭Goodshape


    Heh.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0F8bi1M1xfM


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    #66
    Rawr
    Registered Users Posts: 3,744 ✭✭✭Rawr


    Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »
    That be clever alright. S31 are using Discovery for some unknown nefarious plot.

    Weren't there some mysterious "Black Badge" crew members on Discovery early on in S1? Maybe the whole ship is just a S31 project disguised as a regular starfleet vessel.


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    #67
    Goodshape
    Registered Users Posts: 8,488 ✭✭✭Goodshape


    Rawr wrote: »
    Weren't there some mysterious "Black Badge" crew members on Discovery early on in S1? Maybe the whole ship is just a S31 project disguised as a regular starfleet vessel.

    First episode to feature the Discovery (S01E03) had some heavily armed soldier looking guys with black badges. Don't think it was ever mentioned again.

    https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Section_31_personnel#Discovery_crewman


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    #68
    Rawr
    Registered Users Posts: 3,744 ✭✭✭Rawr


    bluewolf wrote: »
    i don't mind section 31 either. i bet leland is going to go off the rails and there'll be a big LET US NEVER SPEAK OF ANY OF THIS AGAIN
    i'm only saying that because he was the bad guy in shadowhunters. he has that look about him
    lol

    WhV2KXE.jpg


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    #69
    Johnny Storm
    Registered Users Posts: 3,983 ✭✭✭Johnny Storm


    Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »
    This sounds exactly how S2 will play out. The trauma of the War and devastation of Starbase One, along with her capture has turned her to the club of evil admirals (what is it with evil admirals and Star Trek?)

    Could well be! Remember the first season ep where she featured a lot was called Lethe and as we all know Lethe is ....
    https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Lethe


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    #70
    Evade
    Registered Users Posts: 6,723 ✭✭✭Evade


    Johnny Storm wrote: »
    Could well be! Remember the first season ep where she featured a lot was called Lethe and as we all know Lethe is ....
    https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Lethe
    More likely they both reference the same thing, the ancient Greek spirit of forgetfulness and oblivion.


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    #71
    Blazer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,415 ✭✭✭✭Blazer


    Christ it gets worse and worse.
    I’d prefer if it was cancelled now at this stage and rebrand the Orville as Star Trek. It’s far closer to it than this pile of rubbish.


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    #72
    TheValeyard
    Registered Users Posts: 12,207 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    Blazer wrote: »
    Christ it gets worse and worse.
    I’d prefer if it was cancelled now at this stage and rebrand the Orville as Star Trek. It’s far closer to it than this pile of rubbish.

    Then why do you keep watching????

    Fcuk Putin. Glory to Ukraine!



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    #73
    Dave0301
    Registered Users Posts: 2,470 ✭✭✭Dave0301


    Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »
    Blazer wrote: »
    Christ it gets worse and worse.
    I’d prefer if it was cancelled now at this stage and rebrand the Orville as Star Trek. It’s far closer to it than this pile of rubbish.

    Then why do you keep watching????

    Just to say something on this, as it has been a recurring theme on the forum, but why is any criticism of the show met with a response like this?

    I am a big Trek fan, but am finding Discovery a tough watch. There are various reasons for that, some of which is the acting, as well as how the show itself is portraying the Trek universe.

    I suspect a lot of viewers are stuck in that catch 22 of wanting to watch Trek, but this isn't how they wanted it to be.

    It is Trek Jim, but not as we know it. Everyone still has a right to view and critique the show.


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    #74
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Not very in love with that episode. What was potentially a solid "ship in danger" sequence did seem to try and cram in too much.

    Personally I would have preferred that Culber didn't come back. They set it up that way completely. He says to let him go, you have ten seconds before the ship goes under, he is technically already dead, you're talking to an echo.

    No, instead these microscopic spores have a biological transporter made of human DNA and can just reconstitute him from it. Star Trek does this all the time, granted, but it felt really shoehorned in, really lazy.

    Letting him go would have been far more realistic and offered lots of character building for weeks to come.

    Can't say I have many strong feelings on the S31 issue (I never watched the last couple of seasons of DS9). It seems unlikely that any organisation with a black ops, people would know about it. And in times of war, it would be much bigger and better known.

    It seems likely that the plan is as someone mentioned above; to set it up that S31 gets pushed so far out of Starfleet support that by the TNG era, only the very top brass known for certain that it exists.

    I mean ultimately if Starfleet were to announce that S31 has been formally dissolved and classified, then in 10-15 years nobody will be talking about it. After 100 years nobody will ever be aware it was a thing. So it doesn't even need a handy "Let's never speak of this again" plot device.


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    #75
    TheValeyard
    Registered Users Posts: 12,207 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    Dave0301 wrote: »
    Just to say something on this, as it has been a recurring theme on the forum, but why is any criticism of the show met with a response like this?

    I am a big Trek fan, but am finding Discovery a tough watch. There are various reasons for that, some of which is the acting, as well as how the show itself is portraying the Trek universe.

    I suspect a lot of viewers are stuck in that catch 22 of wanting to watch Trek, but this isn't how they wanted it to be.

    It is Trek Jim, but not as we know it. Everyone still has a right to view and critique the show.

    Some people just get a hard on for constant moaning about it. They watch it, to complain about it. (a recurring theme on here). It seems like a needless waste of energy. If you like it, watch it, if you hate it watch something else.

    Fcuk Putin. Glory to Ukraine!



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    #76
    Goodshape
    Registered Users Posts: 8,488 ✭✭✭Goodshape


    seamus wrote: »
    It seems likely that the plan is as someone mentioned above; to set it up that S31 gets pushed so far out of Starfleet support

    Doubtful that they'll do this when they have an entire S31 series in the pipeline.


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    #77
    Inviere
    Registered Users Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭Inviere


    seamus wrote: »
    It seems likely that the plan is as someone mentioned above; to set it up that S31 gets pushed so far out of Starfleet support that by the TNG era, only the very top brass known for certain that it exists.

    The only issue I have with this theory, is that Section 31 has already been shown in Enterprise (some 100 years prior to Discovery) to be a shadowy, unknown organisation that operated independently from Starfleet, with perhaps only the very top brass knowing about it. Now, in Discovery, it's the opposite of that 100 years later, with Saru's sister probably being the only person who doesn't know about it. Then, by the time DS9 comes around, what, 100 years or so later again, it's back to shadowy, unknown, and independent. It's all very messy.

    It was kinda hard to screw up Section 31...DS9 done all of the groundwork, there was absolutely no reason to bring the organisation so close to public knowledge.

    Retro Computers/Consoles Repair/Restoration List



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    #78
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Dave0301 wrote: »
    Just to say something on this, as it has been a recurring theme on the forum, but why is any criticism of the show met with a response like this?

    I am a big Trek fan, but am finding Discovery a tough watch. There are various reasons for that, some of which is the acting, as well as how the show itself is portraying the Trek universe.

    I suspect a lot of viewers are stuck in that catch 22 of wanting to watch Trek, but this isn't how they wanted it to be.

    It is Trek Jim, but not as we know it. Everyone still has a right to view and critique the show.






    There is a difference in criticism and sh1t-talking.
    I used to watch the CW DC-Verse. Started to rag on them after a while for the increased melodrama and terrible writing decisions.


    Then hit a point where I plain did not like the shows.

    So I stopped watching them and I did not flood the fora with constant negativity about shows. Why would I waste my time watching a show(s) I actively disliked only to confront people who did like the shows (even if those people did recognise certain flaws in the show)?


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    #79
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Dave0301 wrote: »
    Just to say something on this, as it has been a recurring theme on the forum, but why is any criticism of the show met with a response like this?

    I am a big Trek fan, but am finding Discovery a tough watch. There are various reasons for that, some of which is the acting, as well as how the show itself is portraying the Trek universe.

    I suspect a lot of viewers are stuck in that catch 22 of wanting to watch Trek, but this isn't how they wanted it to be.

    It is Trek Jim, but not as we know it. Everyone still has a right to view and critique the show.

    It comes down to a value judgement for each viewer of course. I don't believe there's anyone here who doesn't have at least one or two criticisms and reservations about the show. It's a far from perfect iteration of Trek, but it's Trek to my eyes and the good outweighs the bad. For me.

    But if all someone has to offer is that they believe the show is unreservedly execrable, going beyond that balance between what's enjoyable & what isn't - a "pile of rubbish" at that - then isn't it just better for their own sanity and health they just stop watching?

    Life's too short to waste it on something you're just not enjoying.


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    #80
    Blazer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,415 ✭✭✭✭Blazer


    Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »
    Some people just get a hard on for constant moaning about it. They watch it, to complain about it. (a recurring theme on here). It seems like a needless waste of energy. If you like it, watch it, if you hate it watch something else.

    I don’t remember constant moaning about it.
    Some people don’t like that other people don’t agree with their opinion of a show and this is always their first reply.


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    #81
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Blazer wrote: »
    I don’t remember constant moaning about it.
    Some people don’t like that other people don’t agree with their opinion of a show and this is always their first reply.

    More that if you think the show is a pile of rubbish beyond hope, why waste your time watching it if you're just not enjoying it?

    We're obviously all Trek fans here, but if something's gone past 'hate watch' into full on 'I hate watching this', why continue? :)

    This is speaking from experience: I didn't realise how much I hated some shows I felt I was 'meant' to watch / enjoy (eg, GoT, Walking Dead) until I simply turned them off. :)


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    #82
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    pixelburp wrote: »
    More that if you think the show is a pile of rubbish beyond hope, why waste your time watching it if you're just not enjoying it?

    We're obviously all Trek fans here, but if something's gone past 'hate watch' into full on 'I hate watching this', why continue? :)

    This is speaking from experience: I didn't realise how much I hated some shows I felt I was 'meant' to watch / enjoy (eg, GoT, Walking Dead) until I simply turned them off. :)




    Walking Dead (and Fear... even if it is a better show) are great examples.
    Still love me some GoT though


    Roll on the Wheel of Time


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    #83
    PhiloCypher
    Registered Users Posts: 2,388 ✭✭✭PhiloCypher


    The writers can't win, Trek flatlined by Enterprise time because it had become formulaic in a time when prestige TV was exploding. So the writers justifiably try something different by having a main character who isn't the captain and a lower decks feel to the rest of the cast(opinions vary on how successful that choice has been) . In its first season the show, taking a leaf out of DS9 leans heavily into the serialisation that is the norm these days with its Klingon war.

    The fans go mad.

    "this isn't my Trek"
    "this is meant to be Star Trek not Star WARS" (despite DS9s 2 Season long Dominion war)
    "its too serialised" (despite DS9 being heavily serialised for lengthy portions of season 6/7)

    Planned or not the writers course correct, they dial back the serialisation of the main arc and attempt to fit in as many classic trek tropes as possible(too many imo).

    The fans go mad.

    "this is not my trek"
    "FFS another standalone episode, when are they going to move the main arc forward."

    Neither approach has hit my personal Trek sweet spot yet but I've seen more reasons to be positive so far then I did after 2 seasons of TNG. And TNG went on to produce one of the most consistent seasons of Trek ever with its 3rd season(rewatching it as we speak).


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    #84
    Greyjoy
    Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭Greyjoy


    I liked the episode overall but I do agree that the "open secret" of Section 31 in Discovery is pretty ridiculous. They're strutting around in sinister black uniforms openly using cloaked ships. I also thought that Culber should have stayed dead. When he couldn't cross the 'doorway' back into physical space I expected a tearful goodbye to Stamets. We do get a really well acted scene between the two of them and it gives their relationship the closure it never had from S1. But that's all thrown out the window within seconds when they transport him via the spore creature. Again it felt like the writers over-compensating from S1 when they got flak for killing off Culber.


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    #85
    Blazer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,415 ✭✭✭✭Blazer


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Walking Dead (and Fear... even if it is a better show) are great examples.
    Still love me some GoT though


    Roll on the Wheel of Time

    Wheel of time? Are they making a show on that? Oh man bring it on. Along with the Witcher something to look forward to.


    Anyway back to Star Trek. I enjoyed the first season mostly but god I hate Tilly. And the whole thing about Burham,even that stupid smile the navigator gives when Burham walks on desk. Apart from Suru and Pike none of the bridge crew matter a damn. Contrast that with TNG where you had Worf, Geordi, Tasha Yar, Picard, Riker, Data, Troi and this was the first season.
    Can anyone name any of the bridge crew here outside of Pike, Burham and Suru?
    They’re simply bland and uninteresting characters just to tick the boxes.
    I’ll give it a few more episodes but if it doesn’t improve I’ll definitely be cutting it loose.
    Amazingly now that the Orville has practically dropped the comedy act it’s a far better show.
    I bet McFarlane never saw that coming.


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    #86
    TheValeyard
    Registered Users Posts: 12,207 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    I would like much more attention given to other crew members like in TNG and DS9. Less Micheal, more of that robot chick.

    Fcuk Putin. Glory to Ukraine!



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    #87
    Goodshape
    Registered Users Posts: 8,488 ✭✭✭Goodshape


    Blazer wrote: »
    Amazingly now that the Orville has practically dropped the comedy act it’s a far better show.

    Off topic, but, – I dunno. I enjoyed The Orville last year but haven't been able to get into this season at all. Without the humour it's just feels like bad, cheap, pretend-Star Trek :-/

    Think I watched up to episode 5. I'm sure I'll see the rest at some point but not really compelled to hurry.


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    #88
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »
    I would like much more attention given to other crew members like in TNG and DS9. Less Micheal, more of that robot chick.

    Ironically the one bridge member who got to go on the adventure, has barely been name dropped. In fact I can't remember her name tbh (she was on the away team in episode 2).


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    #89
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    How many characters on discovery universe have shown knowledge of S31? Given how secretive discovery original mission was it wouldn't surprise me if the crew, who likely had previous clandestine experience, knew of other less known star fleet elements and organisations. That said, I find it disappointing so far the S31 implementation.


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    #90
    PhiloCypher
    Registered Users Posts: 2,388 ✭✭✭PhiloCypher


    Blazer wrote: »
    Wheel of time? Are they making a show on that? Oh man bring it on. Along with the Witcher something to look forward to.


    Anyway back to Star Trek. I enjoyed the first season mostly but god I hate Tilly. And the whole thing about Burham,even that stupid smile the navigator gives when Burham walks on desk. Apart from Suru and Pike none of the bridge crew matter a damn. Contrast that with TNG where you had Worf, Geordi, Tasha Yar, Picard, Riker, Data, Troi and this was the first season.
    Can anyone name any of the bridge crew here outside of Pike, Burham and Suru?
    They’re simply bland and uninteresting characters just to tick the boxes.
    I’ll give it a few more episodes but if it doesn’t improve I’ll definitely be cutting it loose.
    Amazingly now that the Orville has practically dropped the comedy act it’s a far better show.
    I bet McFarlane never saw that coming.

    The TNG cast were bland archetypes at the beginning, albeit they generally got more lines as the problem solving was more collaborative in Next Gen. But they were no more developed then the Disco bridge crew is 20 episodes in(not even a full TNG season). Now they may well never be developed as well as the TNG cast eventually was, maybe thats just a sacrifice that needed to be made to try something different, but lets not kid ourselves that the TNG cast emerged whole in their Developed state in season 1. Geordie wasn't even an engineer in season one for god sake, he was in command red and working the helm. It took 2 seasons (47 episodes) before the TNG characters became the ones we know and love today and the show kicked into high gear in season 3. 47 episodes , we're only 20 episodes into Discovery.


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    #91
    Blazer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,415 ✭✭✭✭Blazer


    PhiloCypher wrote: »
    The TNG cast were bland archetypes at the beginning, albeit they generally got more lines as the problem solving was more collaborative in Next Gen. But they were no more developed then the Disco bridge crew is 20 episodes in(not even a full TNG season). Now they may well never be developed as well as the TNG cast eventually was, maybe thats just a sacrifice that needed to be made to try something different, but lets not kid ourselves that the TNG cast emerged whole in their Developed state in season 1. Geordie wasn't even an engineer in season one for god sake, he was in command red and working the helm. It took 2 seasons (47 episodes) before the TNG characters became the ones we know and love today and the show kicked into high gear in season 3. 47 episodes , we're only 20 episodes into Discovery.

    That’s why I included Geordi on the bridge crew as he was helm. But at least 1 episode in we knew their names etc.
    It’s 20 episodes in on Discovery and there might be well only be 3 crew members on the bridge. It’s **** poor writing is what I’m saying and not very promising.
    If it keeps up there’s a very high risk it gets canned and we are all Trek fans here. We want a Trek show on tv. And not that Abrams crap either.


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