Irish rail in a United Ireland

L1011 wrote: »

A I said, you can't even remember what you've posted on this back-of-a-fag-packet "plan". I'm not confused about anything - but you clearly are!

You do not understand the costs involved and seem to be thinking up bits and pieces on the fly. It's a bad idea and would cost far more than you think it would.

I thought you were talking about Navan services but yes nothing stopping Maynooth services running non stop between Clonsilla - Connolly once Dart is implemented on the line. Sligo services currently do it. Drogheada, Dundalk, Belfast and Rosslare services do it on current Dart routes albeit they don't run at 100mph but it happens.

With the right structure, planning and scheduling in place diverting Dart off the main line and onto M3 line at clonsilla will definitely help free paths. You also have Newcome jct route to help alleviate the Connolly bottle neck. Realistically the only mixed traffic part of the line should be between Glasnevin and Clonsilla and with good scheduling in place a service to Maynooth or beyond should get a good run in that case.

As I said in other posts the cost of the Navan extension is going to increase and the likelihood of the line been realigned towards Ratoath anyway is not going to make extending to Navan cheaper than building a few extra kilometres to Ashbounre instead. This will also allow a second park and ride facility for the line to serve the N2.

Shifting the electrification work between Clonsilla and Maynooth to Ashbounre instead will have a marginal difference.

L1011 wrote: »

How? At no point did I mention Navan, and every single mention involved Clonsilla.



How? What changes to line structure - and at what cost?



Can only run to P7 - or are you proposing more track and signalling work at even more cost?



More cost being thrown in late in the "plan"!




Except for the fact that the design work is already underway - this isn't some notional thing that'll happen in the future. There are sunk costs already.


You had a relatively bad idea and are now digging deeper and deeper and deeper to try justify it - and actually making the potential costs even further beyond what there is budgeted for the plans you want to change.

If you were suggesting this as something to do with additional funding; its still a relatively bad idea. But to claim that it could be done for the budgeted costs of Maynooth electrification + Navan is insanity.

We were initially discussing loops and anytime I was talking about looping I was doing so in reference to the Northern line were I was proposing the Navan line should run.

No changes required, that's the beauty of it. The infrastructure is already there. A Dart moves off and clears the main line at Clonsilla and Maynooth or beyond services uses Newcome Jct.

P7 is perfect. Use it as a turn back platform for Maynooth services or during peak run some onto GCD. Docklands can also take some peak time services as well.

Not a massive cost increase but it will pay for itself in the long run. A station will obviously need to be built. Its just a case of finding a location that can serve both Ashboure and the N2 while catering for a park and ride. I'd imagine any new station been built anywhere would provide car parking of some sort anyway so I can't see adding an extra few 100 or so breaking the bank.

Plans change and get pulled regardless of sunk costs. The sunk costs haven't provided anything physical yet and parts of them will likely be out of date and redone by the time this happens.

I don't see how I'm digging or adding cost on. It's a simple plan that looks beyond were a and what type of train runs too.

I'd argue that your short sighted vision misses and fails to look beyond how Dart will effect the Maynooth line. You also seem to fail to recognize the proposed Navan service will congest the line further. Future frequency increase to Mulligar, Longford and Sligo are highly likely. This is all planned for a section of line that is restricted in growth potential due to the lack of land available to add loops or treble tracking, even though it will probably require quad tracking. All this will result in is slower services, longer commutes beyond Maynooth and congestion worse than the Northern line.

The Northern line is ripe for quad tracking and it's only a matter of time before this happens. Its also has a direct rail link to Navan in place already which requires a very limited number of upgrade works to implement it too passenger services. It has passing loops in place and can offer connections to Belfast ect and possibly a future link to the airport. As this line is already a premeant way it rules out any excessive CPO costs also.

IE 222 wrote: »

yes nothing stopping Maynooth services running non stop between Clonsilla - Connolly once Dart is implemented on the line.

Despite all the nonsense on this thread, I thought this was a good idea and providing a commuter style service on the Maynooth line rather than DART. Instead of terminating at Maynooth, it could be looked at extending to Kilcock and perhaps a new M4 Parkway Station off junction 8. A second Maynooth station to the east of the town off the proposed ring road on that side of the town serving new developments is something else that could be considered in future as well. It should take a significant number of cars off the M4.

L1011 wrote: »

Only by completely and utterly misinterpreting what you'd been asked, repeatedly, despite clarification; and indeed forgetting that you had specifically posted about Connolly-Clonsilla.

The rest of your reply is rambling all over the place. One major issue is that you don't quite understand that Maynooth is getting electrified. The plans won't need changing because they'll be going straight to ABP.

You are basically further proving with every single post just how bad your idea is.

The Maynooth line will already be electrified before they even begin to look at Navan again, thankfully; so back of fag packet ideas thinking that there'd be a significant saving cutting it back and spending that imagined saving many times over can be safely ignored as rambling fantasies.

Ok so, well I fail to see were these drastic cost increases are coming from or how it's such a wild fantasy idea.

Curtailing a line roughly 30km instead of the orignal plan, which is most likely going to have to be redrawn up on new "virgin ground" alignments in large parts, and upgrading a current rail line is going cost more than the funding for electrifying Clonsilla - Maynooth and extending the line from M3 to Navan.

The line to M3 will be electrified as part of the Maynooth plans. The physical infrastructure costs will be marginal if there even is a difference between electrifying Clonsilla - Maynooth or M3 - Ashbounre.

Altering a plan to redirect a planned rail route with a catchment of 30,000 onto a line that's already in existence in order to serve a further 25,000 is a bad and costly idea in you're eyes.

Try looking beyond electrification. Putting Dart out to Maynooth is only going to create issues in the long term as proven on other sections of the network but if you want to believe otherwise so be it.

Wexford and Northern line services suffer from been held behind a Dart. Clonsilla offers the opportunity of diverting Dart off the main line which in turn allows a clear path for faster services to Maynooth. Newcome Jct. also helps reduce the conflict zone by half.

Mixed traffic only works in short sections. Having slow stopping services within a nearly 20 mile section with no overtaking is going to lead to problems as can be seen on other shorter sections of the network elsewhere where Dart is used. By using Clonsilla and Glasnevin Jct. it reduces the mixed traffic section.

L1011 wrote: »

DART trains will be significantly faster than diesel trains Clonsilla-Maynooth due to the hugely improved acceleration on an extremely poor alignment. So no, it would be slower, not faster.

Maynooth has significant sidings which will allow DARTs to 'get out of the way' of services beyond, just as 29000s do now - and which Malahide doesn't have which is what I think you are incoherently trying to hint at.

Anyway - your awful idea is irrelevant, as Maynooth will have DART before they even begin to look at Navan again. And the depot will be at Maynooth at that.

Short hop areas yes, there is 2 stations beyond Clonsilla time saving will be minimal. Giving the sharp curvature of the line between Clonsilla and Louisa Bridge Dart will also be speed restricted and I'm not aware if a Dart is permitted to run at its top speed elsewhere on the network.

Maynooth wont be the issue its the section between there and Connolly that will be the bottleneck.

Unfortunately that's the type of attitude that most planners and decision makers have in this country, build it, then ignore and deal with the consequences later. Its clear as day the line is going to become a major bottle neck once its built. Extra trains need on already congested line need extra tracks.