Navan Rail Line

AngryLips · 11-12-2019 9:44am

Is the existing M3 parkway route double tracked?

loyatemu · 11-12-2019 10:07am

AngryLips wrote: »

Is the existing M3 parkway route double tracked?

yes

flazio · 11-12-2019 11:07am

Neither Irish Rail or CIE have built a new route from scratch in their lives.

machaseh · 11-12-2019 11:15am

flazio wrote: »

Neither Irish Rail or CIE have built a new route from scratch in their lives.

Typical Irish mentality: 'It has never been done in Ireland before so it cannot be done.'

While most other nations all around the world, some more impoverished than Ireland, are building railways all over the place.

tallaghtfornia · 11-12-2019 11:32am

Said it on previous treads - Both past and present governments have not built one heavy railway since the foundation of the state all they have done is upgraded Victorian Railways to semi modern standards and rebuild some off the railways that where torn up by there predecessors .

The Irish Government are only interested in Roads so they can gouge the Irish Taxpayer for Stealth taxes for driving. If they had any interest in Rail with all the money that was wasted over the last 40 years we would have had good railways.

L1011 · 11-12-2019 11:33am

flazio wrote: »

Neither Irish Rail or CIE have built a new route from scratch in their lives.

Lavistown Curve :pac:

Google Maps'd down the route from Navan and the motorway or associated roads fouls the alignment another 4 times; three would be overbridges and one would be an underbridge that is not boxed:

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.4513946,-6.4807969,229m/data=!3m1!1e3

Paddico · 11-12-2019 2:54pm

Victor wrote: »

You can just make out the blocked-up ends either side of the M3 here: https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.6161733,-6.6713259,116m/data=!3m1!1e3 - they look like square brackets ] [ about 70 metres west of the overbridge.

Zoom out a bit more and you can clearly see the ditches from the old line

CrabRevolution · 11-12-2019 3:58pm

I'd like to see the Navan line rebuilt simply so that the Meath Chronicle will be forced to find something else to write about. I don't expect much from a local newspaper but their "editorials" lately have become nothing but more and more convoluted ways of demanding a railway.

AngryLips · 11-12-2019 5:44pm

flazio wrote: »

Neither Irish Rail or CIE have built a new route from scratch in their lives.

That said, what totally new route would they build? Most of the major urban centres are served. Maybe a direct route for Cork-Limerick? Connect Letterkenny with Derry? Most of the big urban centres are served by rail. Cork-Waterford? Monaghan-Dundalk maybe.

GerardKeating · 11-12-2019 6:05pm

AngryLips wrote: »

That said, what totally new route would they build? Most of the major urban centres are served. Maybe a direct route for Cork-Limerick? Connect Letterkenny with Derry? Most of the big urban centres are served by rail. Cork-Waterford? Monaghan-Dundalk maybe.

I think most/all of your suggestions previously existing.

Lord Fairlord · 11-12-2019 6:14pm

AngryLips wrote: »

That said, what totally new route would they build? Most of the major urban centres are served. Maybe a direct route for Cork-Limerick? Connect Letterkenny with Derry? Most of the big urban centres are served by rail. Cork-Waterford? Monaghan-Dundalk maybe.

I'd love a Dublin to Derry rail line (not via Belfast) with a spur to Letterkenny.

L1011 · 11-12-2019 6:16pm

All existed, at least two in CIE ownership too

Cork Limerick is a relatively recent (45 years or so) removal.

There were two different Letterkenny Derry routes I belive. This is from memory, not actually checking

Waterford Mallow was the Waterford Cork route. More direct would be geographically impossible probably

Dundalk Monaghan was the INWR line I think

magicbastarder · 11-12-2019 6:20pm

there used to be a railway line all the way up to Carndonagh in Inishowen. the OSI mapviewer is a good way of checking how much railway there used to be in the country.

marno21 · 11-12-2019 6:28pm

This is an excellent map of previous rail lines

http://www.railmaponline.com/UKIEMap.php

ncounties · 11-12-2019 7:02pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryLips View Post
That said, what totally new route would they build? Most of the major urban centres are served. Maybe a direct route for Cork-Limerick? Connect Letterkenny with Derry? Most of the big urban centres are served by rail. Cork-Waterford? Monaghan-Dundalk maybe.

I'd love a Dublin to Derry rail line (not via Belfast) with a spur to Letterkenny.

I think that would be the best solution for connection Letterkenny to the rail network. I don't believe the volume of traffic between L´Kenny and Derry would warrant it's own railway line.

If the railway line ever were to be built (which I think there will be political pressure for post the A5 upgrade), I think it would be best to continue on to Derry on the eastern bank of the Foyle. More residents on that side, and easier in time to connect with the existing Derry station. Additionally, if feasible engineering-wise, I think it would be best to go straight on to Armagh from Omagh and not to Portadown (varying from the original line) which would provide Armagh with a link direct to Dublin too.

There is currently significant pressure to get the line from Portadown extended to Armagh as well, with the University of Ulster using a feasibility study as part of its Civil Engineering programme, and the local council recently agreeing to fund an initial feasibility study.

CRAYON ALERT
Attached, are the lines highlighted in yellow that in my thought that could come in time, and this would connect a population in excess of 175,000 with Dublin. Of course this would definitely need to see the Northern Line improved out of Dublin!

Lord Fairlord · 11-12-2019 7:46pm

ncounties wrote: »

I think that would be the best solution for connection Letterkenny to the rail network. I don't believe the volume of traffic between L´Kenny and Derry would warrant it's own railway line.

If the railway line ever were to be built (which I think there will be political pressure for post the A5 upgrade), I think it would be best to continue on to Derry on the eastern bank of the Foyle. More residents on that side, and easier in time to connect with the existing Derry station. Additionally, if feasible engineering-wise, I think it would be best to go straight on to Armagh from Omagh and not to Portadown (varying from the original line) which would provide Armagh with a link direct to Dublin too.

There is currently significant pressure to get the line from Portadown extended to Armagh as well, with the University of Ulster using a feasibility study as part of its Civil Engineering programme, and the local council recently agreeing to fund an initial feasibility study.

CRAYON ALERT
Attached, are the lines highlighted in yellow that in my thought that could come in time, and this would connect a population in excess of 175,000 with Dublin. Of course this would definitely need to see the Northern Line improved out of Dublin!

I'd prefer for the line to go from Omagh to Clones and then maybe to Navan and then to Dublin - a new route. That said your idea may well make more sense than mine! I had to get to Armagh before from Dublin and it involved two buses, changing at Newry; it's a pity that there's no direct service AFAIK.

Zebra3 · 11-12-2019 8:31pm

Lord Fairlord wrote: »

I'd prefer for the line to go from Omagh to Clones and then maybe to Navan and then to Dublin - a new route. That said your idea may well make more sense than mine! I had to get to Armagh before from Dublin and it involved two buses, changing at Newry; it's a pity that there's no direct service AFAIK.

Does the Dublin-Derry bus not serve Armagh?

roadmaster · 11-12-2019 8:40pm

Well the simple fact is with the amount of housing planed for the Navan Area over the next 10/15 years if they don’t build a rail line the M3 from Navan North will look very similar to the M50

ncounties · 11-12-2019 9:02pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Does the Dublin-Derry bus not serve Armagh?

Standard routing would be leaving the M1 at Ardee, and having the drivers EU Driving Hours Regulations break at Monaghan town, before proceeding to the border.

Zebra3 · 11-12-2019 10:10pm

ncounties wrote: »

Standard routing would be leaving the M1 at Ardee, and having the drivers EU Driving Hours Regulations break at Monaghan town, before proceeding to the border.

Dublin-Derry Translink bus serves Armagh.

Elmer Blooker · 11-12-2019 10:28pm

roadmaster wrote: »

Well the simple fact is with the amount of housing planed for the Navan Area over the next 10/15 years if they don’t build a rail line the M3 from Navan North will look very similar to the M50

In Copenhagen a metro to the airport was built BEFORE the housing and apartments were built along the line but unfortunately we don't think that way in this country.

Last Stop · 11-12-2019 10:30pm

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

In Copenhagen a metro to the airport was built BEFORE the housing and apartments were built along the line but unfortunately we don't think that way in this country.

Metrolink does exactly this around Swords. There’s huge area for development opposite the pavilions where the Swords Central stop is proposed??

ohographite · 11-12-2019 11:02pm

ncounties wrote: »

I think that would be the best solution for connection Letterkenny to the rail network. I don't believe the volume of traffic between L´Kenny and Derry would warrant it's own railway line.

If the railway line ever were to be built (which I think there will be political pressure for post the A5 upgrade), I think it would be best to continue on to Derry on the eastern bank of the Foyle. More residents on that side, and easier in time to connect with the existing Derry station. Additionally, if feasible engineering-wise, I think it would be best to go straight on to Armagh from Omagh and not to Portadown (varying from the original line) which would provide Armagh with a link direct to Dublin too.

There is currently significant pressure to get the line from Portadown extended to Armagh as well, with the University of Ulster using a feasibility study as part of its Civil Engineering programme, and the local council recently agreeing to fund an initial feasibility study.

CRAYON ALERT
Attached, are the lines highlighted in yellow that in my thought that could come in time, and this would connect a population in excess of 175,000 with Dublin. Of course this would definitely need to see the Northern Line improved out of Dublin!

Would it be feasible to build the N2 and A5 upgrade very straight and level, and put railway tracks on its alignment as well?
I think it would make the railway cheaper to build than if it was built on a separate alignment.

That would mean it would serve Monaghan, Omagh, Strabane and a few smaller towns. It would still need some separate alignments to run through the towns where potential stations would be, unless all the stations are placed inconveniently beside the motorway, on the edges of all these towns.

I still like your suggestion of an alignment via Armagh though.

marno21 · 12-12-2019 12:07am

No chance of the N2 upgrade carrying a rail line. Apart from population densities, the gradients and curves on the N2 upgrade (a good bit of which will be online upgrades of existing road) will be too severe for rail lines.

CatInABox · 12-12-2019 10:58am

Last Stop wrote: »

Metrolink does exactly this around Swords. There’s huge area for development opposite the pavilions where the Swords Central stop is proposed??

Also ignores that the Luas Green Line was already built like this, with a stop at Cherrywood, an empty muddy field back when the line was constructed, now a fair size town under construction.

Pete_Cavan · 12-12-2019 11:00am

The old line to Navan is completely gone in a number of locations plus it doesn't serve any meaningful population until it gets to Navan, it's a none runner. Imo the only way to bring rail to Navan is with a new alignment, predominantly following the M3. Continue north from M3PW and cross to the other side of the motorway after the toll. Hug the motorway, deviating to create a station at Dunshaughlin before following the motorway again. Head North at J7, where a P&R is created, new station near Kentstown to serve all the houses on that side of Navan, and then join the Drogheda line into the town. 30km of track, three new stations, one major rail bridge over the motorway and avoids motorway GSJs.

The only way I could ever see this being justified was if it was also to serve as a alternative to adding tracks to the Northern line. Drogheda trains could be put on the Navan line to get them off the northern line. Dundalk and possibly Belfast trains could run on it too but that would require a total rebuild of Drogheda Station. Clonsilla to Broombridge could become over congested though but a passing section could be provided around Navan Road Parkway.

blanch152 · 12-12-2019 11:34am

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

In Copenhagen a metro to the airport was built BEFORE the housing and apartments were built along the line but unfortunately we don't think that way in this country.

Wasn't there a station on the LUAS line near Cherrywood that wasn't open at first because houses hadn't been built?

CatInABox · 12-12-2019 11:37am

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The old line to Navan is completely gone in a number of locations plus it doesn't serve any meaningful population until it gets to Navan, it's a none runner. Imo the only way to bring rail to Navan is with a new alignment, predominantly following the M3. Continue north from M3PW and cross to the other side of the motorway after the toll. Hug the motorway, deviating to create a station at Dunshaughlin before following the motorway again. Head North at J7, where a P&R is created, new station near Kentstown to serve all the houses on that side of Navan, and then join the Drogheda line into the town. 30km of track, three new stations, one major rail bridge over the motorway and avoids motorway GSJs.

The only way I could ever see this being justified was if it was also to serve as a alternative to adding tracks to the Northern line. Drogheda trains could be put on the Navan line to get them off the northern line. Dundalk and possibly Belfast trains could run on it too but that would require a total rebuild of Drogheda Station. Clonsilla to Broombridge could become over congested though but a passing section could be provided around Navan Road Parkway.

If they plan on using what remains of the existing alignment, then they'd need to add special development zones along the route as well, Cherrywood-esque, to encourage a massive increase in density along the line.

Victor · 12-12-2019 11:53am

blanch152 wrote: »

Wasn't there a station on the LUAS line near Cherrywood that wasn't open at first because houses hadn't been built?

Neither Racecourse (intended as an event stop) nor Brennanstown have opened.

AAAAAAAAA · 12-12-2019 1:22pm

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

In Copenhagen a metro to the airport was built BEFORE the housing and apartments were built along the line but unfortunately we don't think that way in this country.

You should look at the area from Bride's Glen to Carrickmines on google earth, the main roads have been carved out and partially constructed to a very good spec so far (including trunk services and full cycle lanes), it's genuinely very well planned out.

Navan Rail Line

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