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The Irish famine?
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12-03-2009 1:02am#1
Irish Genocide
"Those who governed in London at the time failed their people through standing by while a crop failure turned into a massive human tragedy. We must not forget such a dreadful event."
Tony Blair, British Prime Minister
June 1997
From the Greek word for tribe (or race), genos, and the Latin term -cide, the word genocide refers to the extermination of the peoples of a nation (or religious group) carried out by an organization, usually a government. Such is the case when discussing the British treatment of Ireland during the potato blight; treatment which was based in the history of Ireland. William Makepiece Thackcray wrote:
"...It is a frightful document against ourselves...one of the most melancholy stories in the whole world of insolence, rapine, brutal, endless slaughter and persecution on the part of the English master...There is no crime ever invented by eastern or western barbarians, no torture or Roman persecution or Spanish Inquisition, no tyranny of Nero or Alva but can be matched in the history of England in Ireland." (Metress, 2)
A famine did not truly exist. There was no food shortage in Ireland evidenced by the fact that the British landowners continued to have a varied diet and food stuffs were exported. This was not the first failure of the potato crop in the history of Ireland. The starvation (and genocide) occurred as the British carried on their historical exploitation of the Irish people, failed to take appropriate action in the face of the failure of the potato crop, and maintained their racist attitude toward the Irish.
The Penal Laws, first passed in 1695. were strictly enforced. These laws made it illegal for Catholics (Irish) to own land, and required the transfer of property from Catholics to Protestants; to have access to an education, and eliminated Gaelic as a language while preventing the development of an educated class; to enter professions, forcing the Irish to remain as sharecropping farmers; or to practice their religion. In addition, Catholics (Irish) could not vote, hold an office, purchase land, join the army, or engage in commerce. Simply put, the British turned the Irish into nothing better than slaves, subsisting on their small rented farms.
The exportation of wheat, oats, barley, and rye did nothing to help the financial status of the poor farmer. The produce was used to pay taxes and rents to the English landlords, who then sold the farm products for great profit. These profits did nothing for the economy of Ireland, but did help the English landlords to prosper. The Irish farmer was forced to remain in poverty, and reliant on one crop, potato, for his subsistence.
The potato became the dominant crop for the poor of Ireland as it was able to provide the greatest amount of food for the least acreage. Farming required a large family to tend the crops and the population grew as a result of need. Poverty forced the Irish to rely upon the potato and the potato kept the Irish impoverished.
As the economic situation worsened, landlords who had the legal power to do so, evicted their Irish tenant farmers, filling the workhouses with poor, underfed, and diseased human beings who were destined to die.
A caption under a picture shown in The Pictorial Times, October 10, 1846, best describes the circumstances of the great starvation, and the nature of the genocide:
"Around them is plenty; rickyards, in full contempt, stand under their snug thatch, calculating the chances of advancing prices; or, the thrashed grain safely stored awaits only the opportunity of conveyance to be taken far away to feed strangers...But a strong arm interposes to hold the maddened infuriates away. Property laws supersede those of Nature. Grain is of more value than blood. And if they attempt to take of the fatness of the land that belongs to their lords, death by musketry, is a cheap government measure to provide for the wants of a starving and incensed people."(Food Riots, 2)
It is time for the world to stop referring to this disastrous period in Irish history as the Great Famine, and to fully realize, and to acknowledge, the magnitude of the crime that systematically destroyed Irish nationalism, the Irish economy, the Irish culture, and the Irish people.
I found this just now very interesting read.2
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There never was an Irish famine, check out the page on facebook0
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It is amazing to think that is was not until the mid 1990's 150 years after this horrific event that Ireland in any real way started to engaged with and talk about the famine or An Drochshaol. I use the Irish phrase because one of the still less talked about results of the famine is how those who died and emigrated were almost all Irish speaking. The magnitude of what happened and the total lack of our ability as a nation to deal with the famine at all until very recently is to my mind very significant. Almost an entire group of people who only spoke Irish had been reduced to the level of paupers, living in hovels in abject poverty and all but totally dependant on one food source to even sustain life. Looked down upon by their British masters as sub human, lazy, violent etc who while they may not have engaged in a pre-meditated genocide certainly were happy to see such an eventuality as it developed.0
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............almost an entire group of people who only spoke Irish had been reduced to the level of paupers, living in hovels in abject poverty and all but totally dependant on one food source to even sustain life.
They were paupers for decades, as were hundreds of thousands of others throughout Britain and Europe. What we now regard as a hovel was pleasing to them because it gave them a roof over their heads and they knew no better.
What is interesting is that history is repeating itself in economic terms.
Looking at the Famine it was generally the bottom stratum that suffered – the landless/peasant class who emigrated. In the Crash of 2008 much of the labouring workers ‘emigrated’ i.e. the Poles, etc., returned home.
Towards the end of the Famine it was those who could work but saw no future who left, to start new lives overseas. Rather like the cohort of young singles, graduates who left by the hundreds of thousands since 2008.
After the Famine it was the 30 acre farmers who left, because they saw no possibility of improvement and faced a huge burden of taxation (rates, etc). Same as many of the young families gone to Canada/Australia (and as many more will do if some of the promises made by some political parties are implemented.)
Then came the Encumbered Estates Courts, the equivalent today known as NAMA. And we have only ourselves to blame, no bad Brits, (though we are trying hard to blame the Germans!)
Has to be the makings of a PhD in that somewhere!0 -
As the cliche says when you don't learn from history it has a tendancy to repeat itself. Although in the case you put forward it was a native Irish government in charge rather then a foreign British one during the famine. But it is an interesting observation nonetheless.
I think while we as a nation are at least to an extent talking about the famine now I feel we as a nation have still not come close to dealing with the trauma and the imensity of what happened and that is not good given how traumatic and cataclysmic it was for us as a people.0 -
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The comparison is open to ridicule. Rather than the 2 events being comparable I would say that the famine puts Irelands recent economic difficulty into historical context, with the reality being that the current position is infinitely superior.0
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jonniebgood1 wrote: »The comparison is open to ridicule. Rather than the 2 events being comparable I would say that the famine puts Irelands recent economic difficulty into historical context, with the reality being that the current position is infinitely superior.
Everything is open to ridicule if it is taken out of perspective. If you wish to interpret my comments at a micro level, yes, they do not make sense, similarly should you look at mortality rates, but that was not my point.
I believe what I wrote is clear – the macro-economic impact of the Famine was huge, the Crash of 2008 caused a similar economic shock to this economy. The numbers are smaller because the economic environment / population demographics have changed but there are reasonable grounds on which to base valid comparisons.
At the Famine about 5 out of 8 millions were cottiers/labourers and of them 2.5 million were totally dependent on the potato, so any issue with their main food source had to have a huge impact. The collapse of the construction sector in Ireland showed up a similar dependence. Construction was the “staple” for much of the economy, from producing a huge portion of tax revenue to employment. Between 2000 and 2006 employment in the sector increased by 80,000 or two thirds. More than 200,000 were employed in the sector, accounting for 11% of total employment in the economy or 16% of total private-sector non-agricultural employment. Just as the dependence on the potato was skewed in Ireland (consumption about five times more than elsewhere in Europe) in recent years we were dependent on construction. Here, new house completions rose from 30,000 in 1995 to more than 76,000 in 2004, giving a rate of house building of 20 units per 1,000 of population, in comparison with the European and US average of five units per 1,000 of population. Comparisons of the multiple are valid. The construction sector was the ‘potato’ of 2008.
The labourer/cottier cohort at the Famine also skewed income figures, as income per capita in Ireland was about half that in the rest of the United Kingdom. In 2008 Ireland there were similar disparities between “Top Earners” and others, and commentators introduced the phrase “two speed economy”.
In the lead-up to the Famine the Industrial Revolution in England caused the collapse of an Irish home-based textile industry and (particularly in the NW & Ulster where it had been strong) there was a huge increase in seasonal migration during the summer months. Similarly there is ‘seasonal’ migration today by professionals who work in Europe during the week and return to families at the weekends.
My comments on tax increases to pay for it all are also valid, as is the unrest – the 'rate-in-aid', (effectively a property tax) provoked strong resentment - compare that to the property taxes and the water tax introduced recently.
During the Famine those who could not pay rent were evicted; as a result of 2008 there have been similar evictions of both home-owners and rental accommodation tenants (the actual number today is much lower, due to ‘social awareness’ but factor in the number of mortgages in arrears and evict them and you arrive at a more comparable figure).0 -
Please read an try an understand what i must feel like as an Irish Citizen who feels like a slave in our Democracy.I have read all i can and i am tired of my knowledge being wasted, For the past 600 years we have being trying to get our freedom form our big neighbor and as we are aware of all our history we still do not honor all the Irish Fathers and Mothers Sons and Daughters who were sold into slavery all over the globe by our friendly neighbor and Irish Girls were used like cattle and bred with their finest black slaves because their children had a light color and made more money when sold on so,can you imagine that in our troubled past it was not a crime to Kill an Irish peasant,and if we own 20 Million acres of land and 11 million is Irish owned and the rest is owned by Gentry that never seen a poor day as their vast estates are a joke and all our kids abroad and all their kids in Eaton and the likes ant we cant even fish our rivers that flow from the real heart of Ireland,what a shame,how many kids in our Capital city ever seen a trout being caught,i could write more but for now i will Leave with a few words i wrote to Commemorate a few of our Dead Heroes. The place is Cashel cross and the date was 17 Of May 1999, i Like to think that it was one of our most famous victories as the Prince of Laoise .Owny MacRory O Moore defeated the Queens finest the Earl of Essex,
CASHEL CROSS
Poetry or Prose these words may be,
But maybe they are sheer simplicity
As we gather here in remembrance of our dead,
Though a lot of their names will never enter our head
A little bit of waist ground is where we stand
To honour these great people with the work of our hand
Now let them receive their sweet meadow of delight
May this lovely day bring them a new moonlight
For now as we prepare to go on our way
Remember the pass of the plumes on the seventeenth of May
Alas maybe in another five hundred years’ time
Somebody like me will write a different line
It is my hope this place is not covered with moss
You will never be able to hide the shape of the cross0 -
I think in many ways and not just in regard to the famine we are still living the post colonial trauma of our past. Especially at the official and governmnet level it is often a tip toe mentality about our past in case it might upset our neighbours. Now a large part of that is because of the unresolved issues with the north but it goes beyond that.
We as a country need to really accept and talk about the traumas in our past and obviously the famine is arguably the worst of them. Certainly it is right near the top of the list at the very least. It is not about Brit bashing but we need to face up to what happened, talk about it, accept it as our past and part of the road that lead to the Ireland we live in today and commemorate and honour our past. The famine in particular obviously was a monumental trauma to our nation and to our psyche and one we are only begining to address I feel.0 -
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I think in many ways and not just in regard to the famine we are still living the post colonial trauma of our past. Especially at the official and governmnet level it is often a tip toe mentality about our past in case it might upset our neighbours. Now a large part of that is because of the unresolved issues with the north but it goes beyond that.
We as a country need to really accept and talk about the traumas in our past and obviously the famine is arguably the worst of them. Certainly it is right near the top of the list at the very least. It is not about Brit bashing but we need to face up to what happened, talk about it, accept it as our past and part of the road that lead to the Ireland we live in today and commemorate and honour our past. The famine in particular obviously was a monumental trauma to our nation and to our psyche and one we are only begining to address I feel.
Talk about it?
Half the country never shuts up about it. The famine is used as a weapon, a recruiting tool for patriots.
It isn't about coming to terms with the famine, it is more about understanding what actually happened as opposed to what people like to think happened.0 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »Talk about it?
Half the country never shuts up about it. The famine is used as a weapon, a recruiting tool for patriots.
It isn't about coming to terms with the famine, it is more about understanding what actually happened as opposed to what people like to think happened.
I did take a while though to get to that stage. The was conspicuously little commemoration of the Famine until 80s/90s. Almost nothing for the 100th anniversary. Whereas people felt more comfortable commeratinng in 1948 the 150th anniversary of 1798 Rising. Put simply, there were lots of feelings of shame and guilt around the Famine era in Ireland.0 -
I did take a while though to get to that stage. The was conspicuously little commemoration of the Famine until 80s/90s. Almost nothing for the 100th anniversary. Whereas people felt more comfortable commeratinng in 1948 the 150th anniversary of 1798 Rising. Put simply, there were lots of feelings of shame and guilt around the Famine era in Ireland.
I would agree with that the feelings of shame, some survivors guilt maybe given we are ancestors of survivors. I think its hard still for us as a society to fully accept the sheer imensity of what happened. The level of degradation so many of our ancestors were reduced to.
It seems only now since maybe the mid 90's or so we are even able to talk about what happened in any depth.0 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »Talk about it?
Half the country never shuts up about it. The famine is used as a weapon, a recruiting tool for patriots.
It isn't about coming to terms with the famine, it is more about understanding what actually happened as opposed to what people like to think happened.
We are talking about a monumental trauma that our country suffered that we refused to even talk about for well over 100 years and which we as a country need to come to terms with given the level of degradation so many of our ancestors were reduced to. How the Irish language as a living breathing every day language was all but wiped out and the cultural devastation that wrought.
For instance I think it would be a positive move if we had a permanent date for a National Famine Memorial Day and it was made an official public holiday.0 -
I think in many ways and not just in regard to the famine we are still living the post colonial trauma of our past. Especially at the official and governmnet level it is often a tip toe mentality about our past in case it might upset our neighbours. Now a large part of that is because of the unresolved issues with the north but it goes beyond that.
Pop psychology of the worst order.
You seem to ignore the historical facts – Irish was nearly dead as a living language at the time of the Famine. The anniversary of 1798 was commemorating a different type of event. You might like also to consider that the Irish language and culture was largely re-instated by a bunch of landed Anglo-Irish Protestants!
Some Famine guilt was felt by survivors (a common phenomenon, “survivor syndrome”) but all those are long dead. One hundred years after the Famine there were many alive who had been told stories at the granny’s knee and were reluctant to share / accept the knowledge that their ancestors lived in hovels and suffered. (And at the same 100 year anniversary date the slum tenements in Dublin & Cork in which several 100k lived, were little better, thanks to OUR OWN economic policies.)
I have no feelings of shame, or regret or anything else because I was not there to do anything about it. Why should I or anyone else feel bad over something over which I/we had no control? My direct ancestral family was nearly wiped out by typhoid/cholera, brought home by a several greats uncle who was a PLG and was infected due to his work. Two collateral lines of my family were killed/emigrated, the survivors did quite well. So am I angry? No. Sad? No, just glad that one little boy survived to reproduce otherwise I would not be here!
People move on, the educated learn about what happened, weed through the fact and the fiction and become more educated; the others rant and use it as an excuse for everything/anything that suits their purposes, including doggerel.0 -
pedroeibar1 wrote: »Pop psychology of the worst order.
You seem to ignore the historical facts – Irish was nearly dead as a living language at the time of the Famine. The anniversary of 1798 was commemorating a different type of event. You might like also to consider that the Irish language and culture was largely re-instated by a bunch of landed Anglo-Irish Protestants!
Some Famine guilt was felt by survivors (a common phenomenon, “survivor syndrome”) but all those are long dead. One hundred years after the Famine there were many alive who had been told stories at the granny’s knee and were reluctant to share / accept the knowledge that their ancestors lived in hovels and suffered. (And at the same 100 year anniversary date the slum tenements in Dublin & Cork in which several 100k lived, were little better, thanks to OUR OWN economic policies.)
I have no feelings of shame, or regret or anything else because I was not there to do anything about it. Why should I or anyone else feel bad over something over which I/we had no control? My direct ancestral family was nearly wiped out by typhoid/cholera, brought home by a several greats uncle who was a PLG and was infected due to his work. Two collateral lines of my family were killed/emigrated, the survivors did quite well. So am I angry? No. Sad? No, just glad that one little boy survived to reproduce otherwise I would not be here!
People move on, the educated learn about what happened, weed through the fact and the fiction and become more educated; the others rant and use it as an excuse for everything/anything that suits their purposes, including doggerel.
It is a fact that of the millions of Irish who either died or emigrated during those years the significant majority either only spoke Irish or used it as their primary language. Absolutely it is correct to say that Irish as a living language of everyday use was under severe strain but to say it was nearly dead at that time is very dismissive of the millions who spoke it at the time of the famine. Or is it because that by that point Irish was essentially the language of the degraded poor that it was dead because they don't count?
Your absolutely right to point out the slum conditions in Dublin and elsewhere that existed after our own politicans took over. Maybe an argument that history repeats itself for those who don't learn its lessons.
Personally I think for too long we have not moved on because we are so often afraid to say anything that might offend our big neighbour and former colonizer. That is not moving on for me. What happened during the famine was of massive consequence and as I mentioned previously is deserving of having a set National Famine Memorial Day which is an official national holiday. It is as simple as that I think it is important for us to remember what was such a horrific trauma to our country and to remember and honour its victims.0 -
Personally I think for too long we have not moved on because we are so often afraid to say anything that might offend our big neighbour and former colonizer. That is not moving on for me. What happened during the famine was of massive consequence and as I mentioned previously is deserving of having a set National Famine Memorial Day which is an official national holiday. It is as simple as that I think it is important for us to remember what was such a horrific trauma to our country and to remember and honour its victims.
The reason the country hasn't "moved on" as you put it, is because it is a handy tool for rallying the troops when they complain.
" We may be a useless government that is robbing you blind, but at least we didn't starve you".
Then there's the uncomfortable truth. Have you ever asked yourself who it was that was exporting all that food?
Who was it that stockpiled food to drive the prices up, or charged the work houses top dollar for the grain?
It wasn't some faceless British minister, it was Irish farmers and traders. The descendants of whom are still living in this country.
Much easier to point the finger east and blame the Brits.0 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »The reason the country hasn't "moved on" as you put it, is because it is a handy tool for rallying the troops when they complain.
" We may be a useless government that is robbing you blind, but at least we didn't starve you".
Then there's the uncomfortable truth. Have you ever asked yourself who it was that was exporting all that food?
Who was it that stockpiled food to drive the prices up, or charged the work houses top dollar for the grain?
It wasn't some faceless British minister, it was Irish farmers and traders. The descendants of whom are still living in this country.
Much easier to point the finger east and blame the Brits.
Who are these people as you put it that use the famine as a rallying call? Also what is the rallying call they are making?
As for the exportation of food from Ireland during this time.
In 1845 a delegation lead by Daniel O'Connell and some of the top Anglo Irish leaders including the Duke of Leinster, Lord Cloncurry and Henry Gratten met the Lord Lieutetanant of Ireland Lord Heytesbury to present a plan to avoid the just begining famine from becoming the catastrophe it ended up becoming. The plan included a ban on the export of grain and food from Ireland, free importation of grain and rice should be allowed, relief measures and food stores to be set up in every part of the country. A 1.5m loan to be raised on the security of Irish forests were among the proposals put forward. Lord Heytesbury refused to consider their proposal.
But again this not about Brit bashing for me. This is about fully accepting the trauma that happened our nation. As I said I think we should have a set National Famine Memorial Day that is a national holiday so we can show our respects to our ancestors who suffered such a horrific trauma and in our own way honour and remember that past. It is as simple as that.0 -
Who are these people as you put it that use the famine as a rallying call? Also what is the rallying call they are making?
As for the exportation of food from Ireland during this time.
In 1845 a delegation lead by Daniel O'Connell and some of the top Anglo Irish leaders including the Duke of Leinster, Lord Cloncurry and Henry Gratten met the Lord Lieutetanant of Ireland Lord Heytesbury to present a plan to avoid the just begining famine from becoming the catastrophe it ended up becoming. The plan included a ban on the export of grain and food from Ireland, free importation of grain and rice should be allowed, relief measures and food stores to be set up in every part of the country. A 1.5m loan to be raised on the security of Irish forests were among the proposals put forward. Lord Heytesbury refused to consider their proposal.
But again this not about Brit bashing for me. This is about fully accepting the trauma that happened our nation. As I said I think we should have a set National Famine Memorial Day that is a national holiday so we can show our respects to our ancestors who suffered such a horrific trauma and in our own way honour and remember that past. It is as simple as that.
Why just the 18th century famine and not the one 100 years before that? Or the one in the middle ages where successive summers didn't happen?
If it's not about Brit bashing, why mention that a memorial day might offend the neighbours, why not understand the truth about the actual events?
What were your ancestors doing, were they one of the farmers who hired their own militia to protect their crops, or one of the city residents who went and gathered up starving beggers from the streets of Cork every night and carted them back to the countryside so they didn't infect their towns?
There were lots of shameful acts during the famine, none more so than the inaction of the British government, but there's probably a number of people in this country that would rather people just kept pointing the finger next door.0 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »Why just the 18th century famine and not the one 100 years before that? Or the one in the middle ages where successive summers didn't happen?
If it's not about Brit bashing, why mention that a memorial day might offend the neighbours, why not understand the truth about the actual events?
What were your ancestors doing, were they one of the farmers who hired their own militia to protect their crops, or one of the city residents who went and gathered up starving beggers from the streets of Cork every night and carted them back to the countryside so they didn't infect their towns?
There were lots of shameful acts during the famine, none more so than the inaction of the British government, but there's probably a number of people in this country that would rather people just kept pointing the finger next door.
Again who are these people who use the famine as a rallying cry? and what is this rallying call they are making which I assume you have a problem with?
Your right there were many other famines before and after the 1845-1850 period. I would quite happily see them remembered and honoured as well on a National Famine Memorial Day.
I have no idea what my ancestors were doing.
I have said that I believe we should have a set day as the National Famine memorial day and that it should be a national holiday so we can remember and honour those who suffered through that terrible trauma. Do you think we should not honour and remember them and not have a National Famine Memorial Day as a national holiday?
I mentioned Brit bashing simply to make it clear that was not what I was calling for. In fact I would say it would be a good thing for us as a nation to fogive Britain for her actions in Ireland as part of a healing process.
I am very well aware of the history of the famine. You talked about nameless faces I gave you a name. You talked about exported food and grain I gave you the example of a specific meeting where specific proposals to avert the catastrophe were put forward by very pominent people and rejected by Lord Heytesbury including putting a ban on those exports. If you would like to discuss other facts as you call them please do elaborate.0 -
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And this coming from our unionist friends who moan and cry on b.ie when anyone criticizes the Brits when every reality tv participant, news reader, soccer team are made wear a poppy to the British army for weeks on end with it's history of murdering and raping their way through Africa and Australia etc :rolleyes:Fratton Fred wrote: »Talk about it?
Half the country never shuts up about it. The famine is used as a weapon, a recruiting tool for patriots.
One of the remarkable story's of the famine was the humanity of the Choctaw tribe in America. Only sixteen years had passed since the Choctaws themselves had faced hunger and death on the first Trail of Tears, and a great empathy was felt when they heard such a similar story coming from across the ocean. Individuals made donations totaling $170 in 1847 to send to assist the Irish people. The noble Choctaw people, showed remarkable humanity to others in need in a foreign country far distant from them.
It should also be pointed out that Ireland wasn't the only country that experienced a famine under the British/English state. Scotland in the 1600’s likewise experienced a famine with Ireland unfortunately having to bear the burden of feeding and sheltering the ones who made it over. Maybe if they had not been shown such charity more of them mightn't have come and later hardship in Ireland as well as sectarianism etc would have been avoided?It isn't about coming to terms with the famine, it is more about understanding what actually happened as opposed to what people like to think happened.
" The majority of British tenants on the Plantation were Scottish and were attracted to Ireland for economic reasons. Many were living in poverty in their home areas as an expanding population, rising prices and increased unemployment led to serious economic problems in Scotland, particularly in the 1630s when the numbers of Scottish people coming to Ireland soared. Migration to Ireland offered the possibility of immediate escape from dire poverty and the prospect of future prosperity. “
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/plantation/planters/es06.shtml0 -
@eire4
Please find above a near perfect example of the rallying call.
And ad hominem.
You'll note Chicago Joe's omission of the millions in aid raised privately in England, or the outstanding work of the Quakers in his little rant.
As advised in one if the other famine threads you resurrected, read Christine Kinealy's book. She gives excellent unbiased examples of the famine. The UCC multitext work is also an excellent resource.
http://multitext.ucc.ie/d/Emancipation_Famine__Religion_Ireland_under_the_Union_1815--18700 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »@eire4
Please find above a near perfect example of the rallying call.
And ad hominem.
You'll note Chicago Joe's omission of the millions in aid raised privately in England, or the outstanding work of the Quakers in his little rant.
As advised in one if the other famine threads you resurrected, read Christine Kinealy's book. She gives excellent unbiased examples of the famine. The UCC multitext work is also an excellent resource.
http://multitext.ucc.ie/d/Emancipation_Famine__Religion_Ireland_under_the_Union_1815--1870
I will ask again do you support the making of a national holiday a set National Famine commemoration day so that we can properly honour show our respects to and remember this monumental and traumatic part of our history?
I will also ask again who are these people making a rallying cry? You clearly had some people in mind when you posted this please do tell us who these people are. Also what exactly is this rallying cry you refer to and what exactly is it that you have a problem with as I assume from the tone of your post you have a problem with whatever it is this rallying call is.0 -
I will ask again do you support the making of a national holiday a set National Famine commemoration day so that we can properly honour show our respects to and remember this monumental and traumatic part of our history?
I will also ask again who are these people making a rallying cry? You clearly had some people in mind when you posted this please do tell us who these people are. Also what exactly is this rallying cry you refer to and what exactly is it that you have a problem with as I assume from the tone of your post you have a problem with whatever it is this rallying call is.
It is a rallying cry for the rabid nationalists and uber patriots, I thought that was pretty obvious.
Do I think we should have a days holiday to commemorate the famine? No I don't.0 -
Currently we have a Sunday in May which has become National Famine Commemoration Day. For me I support the making of a set date be it in May or not that becomes also a national holiday so that we can honour, remember and pay our respects to those who suffered during that monumental trauma.0
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Currently we have a Sunday in May which has become National Famine Commemoration Day. For me I support the making of a set date be it in May or not that becomes also a national holiday so that we can honour, remember and pay our respects to those who suffered during that monumental trauma.
Good luck with that one.
Maybe it could be focused on Drogheda, after they adopted the Ottoman symbol to remember the aid sent by the emperor.0 -
The word famine was always used to descibe a shortage of food.
There was no famine hence the use of the term an Gorta Mór. A far more accurate description.0 -
The word famine was always used to descibe a shortage of food.
There was no famine hence the use of the term an Gorta Mór. A far more accurate description.
A fair and valid point Zebra. I have also seen Drochshaol used at times as well. Kind of more appropiate in many ways to use the Irish terminology given just how many Irish speakers suffered during this traumatic time for our country,0 -
ChicagoJoe wrote: »One of the remarkable story's of the famine was the humanity of the Choctaw tribe in America. Only sixteen years had passed since the Choctaws themselves had faced hunger and death on the first Trail of Tears, and a great empathy was felt when they heard such a similar story coming from across the ocean. Individuals made donations totaling $170 in 1847 to send to assist the Irish people. The noble Choctaw people, showed remarkable humanity to others in need in a foreign country far distant from them.
Interestingly, the black slaves the Choctaw owned suffered even worse on the Trail of Tears. They took them with them, being some of their most valuable "property".0 -
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"millions in aid raised privately in England" really, I have googled it but found nothing, can you provide any reliable links ?? Also you did not answer my question so I'll try again, if the Scottish refugees pouring into Ireland in the 1600's had not been shown such charity more of them mightn't have come and later hardship in Ireland as well as sectarianism etc would have been avoided?Fratton Fred wrote: »@eire4
Please find above a near perfect example of the rallying call.
And ad hominem.
You'll note Chicago Joe's omission of the millions in aid raised privately in England, or the outstanding work of the Quakers in his little rant.
As advised in one if the other famine threads you resurrected, read Christine Kinealy's book. She gives excellent unbiased examples of the famine. The UCC multitext work is also an excellent resource.
http://multitext.ucc.ie/d/Emancipation_Famine__Religion_Ireland_under_the_Union_1815--18700
This discussion has been closed.
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