Pray for Peace in ME | War and spirituality a conflict ?

Joseph.
Obviously I would not be privy to the level of connection you have with deity. However I must assume that you do not have anything particuluarly close to any of those you have mentioned as you seem to constantly misrepresent them. The 'book' charactaristics and correspondances to deity are but the surface.
It is Ironic that when talking of the 'Cancer of Nazism', you would also say that you would revere the greatest usurper (granted partially unwillingly) of the entire celtic pantheon's, the one who consumes the gifts, traits and abilities of all other deity she encounters. The Fiery arrow who bears the hiddeous scars of her forge turned to warmaking. She who has insisted and persisted to have this nation "hear her roar". You see that even Brid is untouched by her own polarities. Sure Llewellen press would have even her own people believe her to be a 'fluffy' and 'nice' deity all about plesant things but would also fail to show the deeper side to her.
The point being Joseph, all deity have their polar side. It is the duality within everything, including our Deities that permiates the natural world to mimic and react to those polarities. As much as a so called 'battle' deity has a nurturing side, so do those 'healer' deities have their own parasitic sides. The differance to me is all down to what parts of a deity you wish to see and experiance.
Also, it is common belief that you do not 'choose' deity, deity chooses you. Sure you can opt to invoke certain deities for certain ceremonys but day to day contact with deity is patronage and occasionally a mentor student relationship. You cannot pick and choose deity according to your daily situation. I am sure even you would laugh at the concept of someone invoking mercury because they are late for a meeting or someone having a chat with miach about their prescription medications??!!
Bottom line is that Deity chooses you, you must accept all that that deity is and represents and do so in every moment of every day.
One little note about Polytheisism here. Our Gods and Goddesses are not perfect or infallible or all encompasing and consuming. If they were then we would be monothesists or duothesists...

joseph dawton wrote:

Well scorplet there is no need to take such a condescending tone with me. I do not know you and you do not know me and I am not impressed by wholesale regurgitation of Janet Farrar and Gavin Bone in a lecturing tone as if I am some ignorant noephyte.

I was actually trying to be nice about this Joseph. Your comments on deity have been quite offensive to quite a few people (and non people) and your willful misunderstandings of them are akin to you having written 'your momma's a... (insert expletive)'.

I can only react to any given statement or body of statements a person has given and as I have already said and you have reiterated I do not know you and you do not know me, on that basis I cannot see that anyone other than someone with little experience of close deity connection or someone who refuses to accept the wholesomeness of deity would make such statements. This does not mean that I have spoken to you as if you were an ignorant neophyte because firstly, neyophytes and equivilant are not ignorant and secondly because someone coming across as such I would treat with the reasoning of they may not know any better and I would not expect them to know such things. You however, through many of your posts have proven yourself to be a little further than the early stages of training and besides you have also previously indicated that you are interested in the druidic path so neophyte is not a word that would be associated with that path, perhaps dedicant, trainee or bard would be more appropriately used.

I have not regurgitated anything other than three words which were placed within quotation brackets and as for a lecturing tone I accept that and have no bones about lecturing you or anyone else where I see fit and believe it to be justified. I would see this instance to be particularly justified when it comes to the deity you prefer to revere. Having been a priestess of the one she first usurped for as long as I have, I find it quite acceptable to renounce and dispell what she is not and to defend the honour of all deity of this land or no and uphold the purpose of my priestesshood. I will only cease to do so when the world recognises the cancer of the celtic pantheons, understands all its aspects and accepts its nescessity but refuses its untethered rampage and anyone who takes that as a personal attack should look to put some more cotton wool in their wrapping...

joseph dawton wrote:

arguing over minutiae is so common and leads to greater division where common ground and mutual respect is what is needed in these times. Is it not possible to disagree without denigrating or ridiculing others' opinions?

We are not arguing over minutiae and even so it is not an argument in itself that creates division it is the opinions formed and active decisions made based on those opinions that create division. As to greater division, there must first be a division before it can become greater. What existing divisions do you imagine there to be?
If you believe it to be impossible to disagree with someones opinon and yet see it as unnescessary to argue for the sake of common ground and mutual respect then why did you reply? You seem to be perpetuating what you interpret as distastefull. I however see this as more of a colloquy and therefore a sharing of ideas conflicting or otherwise in an instructional and educational way.

joseph dawton wrote:

As for polar attributes, yes that's true to an extent. However if all these deities have so many polar attributes that they hence share with other dieties then why bother with distinctions between them? Why bother with polytheism at all in that case? Surely the whole concept exists because of a human need to separate the different aspects of the divine into archetypes?

An individual deities attributes in their polarities do not mean that they share those with other deities. The reason any deity has any attributes is due to personality. Therefore they remain as individuals. Polarities do not necessarily mean opposite, infact the two words are not even listed as synonyms in a standard thesaurus. A particular deity not only has their personalities but also how they manifest and also their history that will differentiate them from each other. Just because joe and john both like chocolate brownies but hate chocolate milkshakes, they can both mend a punctured bicycle and both know how to boil an egg does not make joe and john the same person!!!
The concept of polythesism does not exist because of human need to create archetypes, it exists because there are some humans who choose to relate and commune with many deities in an intimate way and from that there have been created archetypes, a human concept of communication which convey in a perfect way the purpose of that individual deities existence.

I would just say that with your regard for so called battle or war deities, you should journey with them without fear and understand their completeness rather than only seeing one side of them and also to do the same thing with other deities and open yourself to seeing how they create death and destruction. If you are connecting to any deity within the context of an earth based spirituallity you must understand the primary lesson of life in the form of birth death and rebirth and how every deity embidies this in their own unique way with their own personallities lending to it. Remember that when unserstanding the cycle of birth death and reberth that where there is one point of the cycle there are also the other two to be found. Take off your blinkers and look full circle.

While there is still injustice and opression and struggle in the world and in peoples hearts and mind there will be a place for "war" dieties.

joseph dawton honestly I felt put out and partonised by your assertion that my Goddess has no place in this world or my modren life and that there is something wrong with me that I have such a personal connection to such a diety.

Those of us that do end up working with what are seen as dark Gods and Goddess come to learn of thier other aspects. Many times they are seen as taboo and really it is a case of bad public relatations and misunderstandings.
Part of working with those Gods means that we have to faithfull repasent them to others and that can mean correcting other peoples misunderstanding and hoping to shed some light in the dark into which they have been quite frankly shoved.

Kali is the protector of those who can not defend themselves, mostly women and children. Her Thugees were orginally those in the community who would strike out against those who abused others and against whom it was not possilbe to bring to justice under the laws of the land. This is what they were and what she was before the term Thugee became corrupted.

Sekhmet only embraced her rage when those near and dear to her were attacked and she was driven to such an extreme that it was hard to bring her back, thankfully she is fond of a tipple but rage and destruction is not her default but it is there should any raise her ire enough.

The Mórrígan is a lady of such sensous beauty that she hides her face and form rather then addle those she would will to be warriors.
She is also a mother and still loves and aches for the loss of her child.
Her carrion crows help clean away that which would other wise fester and foul our lands.

To lump these three together and declare them out of bounds, out of date and out of touch with modren life and the lifes of thier followers and priests and priestess is to my mind out of order. Maybe they have spurred those posting here up to have a word with you on thier behalf as you have much maligned them.

Do we need warriors and war diety in the times of peace ?

Yes and to my mind doubley so. During times of war your enmey is usuall clear as are the objectives and it is easy to be white against a black back drop.

In times of peace it is easy to grow soft and complacent and fall into short sightedness of living a life with out struggle and assume that it is that way for others. If your life is un touched by injustice, volience, sexual abuse and over coming obstacles be they of the heart mind and soul then maybe you have no need of contact with such Gods, but that is not the case for the rest of us and it would seem the world for that matter.

A warrior is a warrior and is expected to act honourible and defend those arround them and to always be at war with those that make less of others.

Yes in the times before, swords and spears were forged for war and when there was peace they were discarded. This ment that it was a task to get ready for battle and it was not a task under taken lightly. This can be seen in the annals. The describtion of Brighid scarred from the forge making weapons comes from there and can be easily researched. Maybe take some time to visit with her and ask about this task she preformed to equip both the children of Danu and the Fir Bolg as both sides had to have the same weapons to make the battle fair.

" With great power comes great responsibilty "

It can be hard to see how as a warrior that you can fit what you are into a modren life.
It could be due to this side of yourself and your gifts that you have an averision to such gods.
I know I had and oft I would fool myself into thinking life would be easier if I had a differnt patron deity.
This is a delusion tbh and those of us that have the rage and the ability to cut and thrust at others and to rend them physicall, socailly and engerticall need to learn to use it under the correct guidance.

All blades need to be tempered and tired before they can be trusted.

What is my rage in comparison with that of a Goddess or Her frustration and anger ?

I know there are certain things that I can not ignore, I have had to accept and embrace and understand and so doing so learn to use it to stand up for myself and others.

When have those who choose such hard spiritual paths or find themselves on them most people ?

Difficult people sometimes need difficult deity to work with and to push and challenge them. Yes it takes self discipline and self knowledge they certainly don't pussyfoot around and will strip you of your delusions to armour you with better things.

Yes it can be hard work but so is anything worth achieving and what is more precious then mastery and understanding of self ?

Thaedydal wrote:

A warrior class needed someone else to tend the feilds and cattle, to craft the swords and sheilds this lead to what was our agri based culture which was the start of a production way of life and then on into industires and a work force.

But if you look at somewhere like Sparta the society they constructed was one of the most evil in history.

With a (genuine) polytheistic understanding of the world (1) this means that is is worshipped not necessarily because it is seen as good but because it is a reality. After all the Greeks proptiated the Olympians not because they loved them but becasue they feared them.

However while one can accept that conflict is part of life and perhaps will always be so. This surely does not Mean that war is a good thing.

As for the notion of the warrior castes to venerate them is to ignore one crucial fact. There were far more Helots in Sparta than Spartans; unless one genuinely believes that it is worth the sacrifice of millions to produce one great man; what one might a call a Russian Literature view of life.


Very interesting discussion to read.

MM

(1) Though as I have said before I find it hard to believe that westerners can hold such genuine beliefs as opposed to seeing the 'Gods' as metaphor or 'tools'. I find it hard in other owrds to believe that a modern Irish person can be a polytheist in th same way as a Indian peasant.

joseph dawton wrote:

I can see no point in discussing this further. I have never been so patronised in my life!

Well I can see many reasons why you should continue to discuss this topic, for example in your own words

joseph dawton wrote:

I have done a lot of personal work confronting my own darker side and dealing with my anger in the past and exploring the dark mother and aspects of the Mórrígan, Donn and Cernunnos, however my contact with them has always been limited to a specific need. The darker side is a part of myself that is powerful and and I have a great capacity to hurt others both physically and verbally if I wish to. For that reason I try express negative feelings and thoughts rather than bottle them up but keep it restrained to an extent as I find it scarey myself when given full reign. I try to rechannel my negative traits and aggression towards positive outcomes, I can see from your perspective how these deities are of great assistance in that process. It's certainly something I will look at again.

I am actually glad that you have felt so patronized and annoyed at my comments as they were wholly intended to do so. If I so choose to challenge someone to a point for their own good or that of others I will do it and It is not a matter of who gives me the right to do such a thing it is who and what I am and my function both in and out of my context as a teacher. And in the course of this debate many have told you the same things in non confrontational ways but you have continued to take the same line. Through confrontation you then begin to see and admit to yourself and to the forum where the use of a relationship with war deities is even in your own life and also where your previous views were held.

joseph dawton wrote:

I am well versed with the dark and light nature of existence from the view point of several traditions and I am not lacking in either experience or understanding. but of course like everyone else I still have plenty to learn.

That was but one of the options I proposed to you as a reasoning for your blinkered view the other you have proven to be a correct assertion.

scorplett wrote:

I cannot see that anyone other than someone with little experience of close deity connection or someone who refuses to accept the wholesomeness of deity would make such statements.

joseph dawton wrote:

As for your comments, who are you to cast yourself in a position of authority and superiority over me or anyone else on this forum?

I might ask who are you to ask that question of me because that Joseph is a two edged sword. Yes I have placed myself in A position of authority true but not THE authority and will stand by such a stance because it has been done for good reason and one that has already proved beneficial to you personally and I am sure also to others who have been following this thread with interest but that said I cannot accept that anyone is superior here. If my comments have made you think that of me be they true or false, well then good, because that is obviously what was needed for you to be challenged from your comfortable position.

joseph dawton wrote:

I find it telling that you go beyond criticising my comments on this thread to encompass my entire contribution to this forum and my whole ethos. Why would you feel it necessary to go to such lengths when I have done nothing to you?

I would see it as only fitting that If I am to form a view on anyone on the basis of their postings in this forum or anywhere else that I do not form such an opinion based on one individual post or even those posts from one individual thread. I have not specifically traced back your previous comments on other topics but remember them as I would take time to consider everything everyone might post here and would follow with ferver those who post reguluarly. I think it only fair to you to base my opinions of you on the most wholesome basis available to me. With this in mind I can appreciate more about you and your place upon your path than you might openly state and can understand your worldview better. Contrary to what you might choose to perceive, I do not see you as any sort of blow in or neophyte and can tell you have had a number of years experience and it is because of this that I was knowingly able to challenge you rather than explain things in a 101 sort of way. You seem to be a stubborn and somewhat fearfull of this subject and considering that I respect you for not having run from this debate.

joseph dawton wrote:

I did not ask you to lecture me or personally attack me, I asked people on this thread what role they saw for war deities in modern society.

No you didn’t ask me to lecture you but tough!, you asked the questions made the assertions, misrepresented and offended the gods in the name of avoiding your own fears. For that I think a lecture was in order. I did not however personally attack you. I challenged your views and gave possible reasons as to why you would have formed them. And might I remind you that you not only asked a question, you also made aspertions about the Gods and be I new to my path, where I am now or another decade or two further along I will always vehemently defend the Gods and Goddesses of any wrongdoing or misrepresentation.

Mountainyman; Just a small point of clarification. Not all Pagans are polythesists. Some are duo thesists and some panthiest. There are also some Monothesist Pagans but very very few.

joseph Scorplet means well and while you didn't find her posting helpful she still took time to reply and does deserve respect for that even if you disagree and you know you can just skip over her posts

I think in trying to dominate we would have to set ourselves apart and over that side of our nature that I think that such a stuggle is not a good thing and self defeating.

By learning to embrace and acknowledge what is part of us we gain knowledge and eventualy master over our self and our toughts.

It isn't easy, it isn't comfortible to know and see what can lie beneath our own skins and where our dark toughts can lead us but I would as soon admit to myself that when someone is doing my head in that I would realy like to hit them such a smack or punch them in the nose to see them bleed and acknowledge that side and having done so put it aside having let it wash over me and through me and take a deep breath then say nothing and let that urge, ill feeling build into a rage and then have me bent out of shape and having a row or arguement or a confrontation later on in the day or week over seemingly nothing.

This something that I have learned on my path, that and how to have a good confrontations with people, how to tell that person you are doing my head in, these are my boundaries respect them.

Everyone feels anger and frustration and everyone has to express it but we need to learn to do so in a good way.
Sometimes all it takes is saying it, even if it is just to ourselves and that in it's self can be a realse that allowes us to deal with the what/who that has made us angry and where it has come from.

The other side of this is passion, and I would not live in a world with out passion.
The idea of a calm, peaceful, placid world where no one has a good arguement to sharpen thier wits and get thier dander up or has a row to clear the air with thier partner and makes up for it passionately after would to me be like draining all the colour out of the world.

Our passions are important to us, they drive us on, give us ways to express ourselves and experience the world around us, give us the gumption to stand up for what we believe in, to speak out and be heard, to fight to be oursleves.