Legends and Neo-Paganism (Split from "im new to...")

Nevyn · 12-08-2005 7:16pm

No I am not insulted at all just clarifing.

Wicca at work hoarding knowege it has no right too.

And you may say the same about any group that has oath and traditions that
it hordes knowledge. Colleges horde knowlege in that case as well.

Gods are not interchangible at all, I sure as hell would not be comfortible
working with the likes of Odin or with Zesus.

now if you want to dicuss legends fine with me I'd love to as I am sure others
there would enjoy it too.
Pick one start a thread on it and lets see were we get to with it.
The listings of them one your site a quite good.

Talliesin · 12-08-2005 7:20pm

ArdRi79 wrote:

You know but you cant tell me because you are bound by terrible oaths.

No, but as soon as I find out, I won't tell you.

ArdRi79 · 12-08-2005 7:27pm

You will notice Craobh Crua do not hoard what is the right of our collective people Craobh Crua have put alot of work into a website that gives the knowlege of our people back to them. That has not been done by any other group or individual not The Farrers not Silja Muller not Con Conor not anbloody body, those who seek to exploit the Gael to their own ends should be ashamed.

B.T.W. Grow up Talliesin how the hell is I wont tell you contributing to anything but conflict, some bloody moderator you are. little megalomaniac

Talliesin · 12-08-2005 8:05pm

ArdRi79 wrote:

You will notice Craobh Crua do not hoard what is the right of our collective people Craobh Crua have put alot of work into a website that gives the knowlege of our people back to them.

Fair play.

ArdRi79 wrote:

That has not been done by any other group or individual not The Farrers not Silja Muller not Con Conor not anbloody body

The Farrars have frequently been criticised as oathbreakers. Technically they are not, but they've sailed pretty close to the wind as far as that goes. Frankly it seems pretty bizarre to hear them accused of hoarding knowledge.
Keeping true to your oaths is itself part of our people's heritage. If you have sworn an oath or had a geis laid upon you you keep to it, should it mean your death or worse. I'm sure you can recall at least one legend where that happens.
So for that matter is keeping certain knowledge to those who have been taught it in certain ways, or else Connla son of Aoife could have looked up the use of the gae bulga in a book when Scáthach didn't teach it to him and remained undefeated by Cú Chulainn.

ArdRi79 wrote:

those who seek to exploit the Gael to their own ends should be ashamed

Neither the Farrars nor Silja claim any Gaelic heritage (I don't know Con or know of Con, and have met him only in passing, but I have seen at least one part of his influence upon the community and it speaks well of him - beyond that I can't comment), though they have all worked with Gaelic gods as Witches. You don't snatch that relationship with the gods from some secret hidden tome, you get it trust upon you by Them, and often you wish they'd left you the **** alone.

ArdRi79 wrote:

B.T.W. Grow up Talliesin how the hell is I wont tell you contributing to anything but conflict

It says two things - one is that I don't lay claim to much in the way of oathbound knowledge (and what little I have can be found in a book, though I won't repeat it because its being in a book makes me no less oathbound). The other is that if I come to something through making an oath I will keep to that oath no matter what.

Do you pay attention to the legends you read? If so I marvel at how you have come to the attitude that you have towards oaths and what is oathbound.

ArdRi79 wrote:

some bloody moderator you are. little megalomaniac

I've been called that before, though not by someone who calls himself "Ard Ri".

Really, I've bent the rules for one of your people enough for you to get snotty about my moderating here. Any more comments on it other than a proper complaint (as in actually compaining about something in particular, rather than general bitching) in a PM or on the Feedback forum will result in my generally short supply of patience running out.

ArdRi79 · 12-08-2005 8:22pm

This is the very last thing Im going to say on this thread.

I was not acccusing The Farrers, Silja Muller or Con Conner of hoarding knowledge or exploiting the Gael I was using them as three Pillars of the neo-pagan commuinity.

I first used my name because I loved Tara, then with a little research I came to find that my last name comes from Bran son of Febal High King of Ireland of Immram Bran. I also came to understand that the Y chromasome never changes so genetically speaking I am 50% Bran son of Febal the rest could be insect and I'd still have the right to use it as my login. The 79 is the year I was born I use it to distinguish myself from the other O'Broins

There's the explanation of my login, dont pee yourself with excitement.

Suaimhneach · 13-08-2005 7:13pm

ArdRi79 wrote:

The Farrers not Silja Muller not Con Conor not anbloody body, those who seek to exploit the Gael to their own ends should be ashamed

Have you met any of these people? Or are you going upon what Stiofán and Cristóir tell you? Or are you just assuming that CC are better than everyone else because they're offering a "better" version of what you believe is right.

I really have a serious issue with my Dads name being on that list, and I would prefare if you did not slander my family name with your inaccurate perception of what we are, or what we do.

So far the only positive thing CC have done is An Chartlann, which you use as a tool to defend yourselves, as if that makes it okay or earns you the right to say others are wrong in what they do/share/practice. Did you have any part in the making of An Chartlann ArdRí? Can you lay claim to that other than considering yourself a member of the group?

If we were to judge you as veriouciously as you have judged others we would see you in an extremely dark light. The CC forum is one example. There have been *two* threads erased from there, both of which had people complaining/expressing their concern for CC. Thats threads/opinions entirely taken off and disregarded as if they didnt happen. Hardly honourable. Now as a group CC are new, very new to the Pagan Community, and so far all they have done is slander those who have been working long and hard within this community, which hardly bodes well for them. Now you've [CC, you and Cristóir] have managed to give yourselves bad names on one of the main pagan boards online by condeming peoples ways of life. You are just as bad as you consider everyone else to be.

Is the problem the CC have with Druidschool the fact that it offers a homestudy course? "making money off the back of our heritage" I belive is a quote from one of ye. This is the closest I can get to assuming your problem with Druidschool, so I will point out for you that Druidschool has a wealth of information and articles and useful resources available in the site, entirely seperate to the online course part. And also that some of your members on the forum actually take part in online courses, members that you have not forced to leave by bashing their beliefs taht is.

You should take a look at the group your supporting, their actions and their attitudes, before assuming that you can comment on other individuals and groups.

Suaimhneach · 13-08-2005 7:26pm

ArdRi79 wrote:

I first used my name because I loved Tara, then with a little research I came to find that my last name comes from Bran son of Febal High King of Ireland of Immram Bran. I also came to understand that the Y chromasome never changes so genetically speaking I am 50% Bran son of Febal the rest could be insect and I'd still have the right to use it as my login. The 79 is the year I was born I use it to distinguish myself from the other O'Broins

There's the explanation of my login, dont pee yourself with excitement.

I lay claim to The O'Connor Dons of Connacht and many can trace their ancestory and claim the right to use a name. However, this does not denote you are an ArdRí, or high king. Which is nearer the point Talliesin was making, but dont worry us peeing ourselves.

Talliesin · 14-08-2005 3:50pm

ArdRi79 wrote:

I was not acccusing The Farrers, Silja Muller or Con Conner of hoarding knowledge or exploiting the Gael I was using them as three Pillars of the neo-pagan commuinity.

You mentioned them in the same breath as your claim to be bettering the rest of the Neo-Pagan community (and unless you can show an unbroken lineage you are yourself Neo-Pagan) in your not hoarding knowledge, though I don't know of anything you have published that wasn't already published whereas the Farrars, rightly or wrongly, actually brought new knowledge into the public domain so that claim has no legs to stand on either.

ArdRi79 wrote:

I also came to understand that the Y chromasome never changes so genetically speaking I am 50% Bran son of Febal

Could be as low as 2.17% or as low as 0% - there are 23 pairs of chromosones in human cells, and only one (the Y chromosone as you state) can be traced reliably without the use of genetic testing. That reliability is dependant on there being no adoption (a common practice encouraged by the Old Ways) and on the claim as to who was the father being correct every time.

This isn't particularly advanced genetics, and indeed it's common sense - the whole point of sexual rather than asexual reproduction is to mix the genepool up a bit, otherwise we'd all be pureblood or near pureblood members of one tribe or another, and hence very poor at adapting and evolving to meet the conditions we live in.

ArdRi79 wrote:

There's the explanation of my login, dont pee yourself with excitement.

I'm not terribly excited, it just struck me as amusing to claim I was a megalomaniac for following the rules when you have that name. I couldn't give a toss what username you use (unless it contained profanity, I have rules to follow) but it did make your claim funny.

Now if I want to actually counter that claim I could point out that I have repeatedly given you and yours breaks. (I was even inclined to give Cristóir's inital post a break but his breech of the site rules rather than the forum rules meant another SMod would have banned him anyway, indeed I got him in a clean-up run I used to do at a time when I was normally the only SMod online before I even noticed what forum the post was in).

Your posts have frequently been against the charter, your attitude is clearly against the spirit of the charter and yet I have given you break after break.

In a way this was perhaps crueler of me than had I banned you - since in this thread you have demonstrated yourself to be full of it as to what you are claiming. You talk of the importance of the old ways with one breath and with the next you not only refuse to honour them yourself but condemn others for honouring them.

Someone who does not respect the oaths and vows of another has no right to make any claims as to how they or anyone else lives by the old ways. If all you want to do is tell stories then that is grand, the art of the seanachie is a fine and nobel one and we could do with more of it. If you want the stories to mean more to you than that then put up or shut up. If you want to know what isn't written then either ask Them, or start acting like you are someone who can be trusted with that knowledge.

Nevyn · 14-08-2005 4:55pm

Look there are only 3 ways you could go and find out what were the true old ways.
( irish wont work for the celts invaded them, celitic wont work for there have
been many invasions after that so what would such old true ways of ancient ansestral hertiage even be termed ?)

1 build a time machine and go back two thousand years and record stuff but then you have the heineberg principal that the act of abserving something
changes it.

2 Happen to find sevral great big huge stones totally enscribed with ogham,
that some poor sod made it his lifes work and that of his family to come to
take down all the secret estoric oral tradtions of how the Gods were or want
to be worshiped.

3 open your eyes, heart, mind and soul and let the Gods guide you to and
in the ways they wish you to serve them. Pursure what ever path will
allow you to conect to them in a way they aprove of and will give you the skills you need.

ArdRi79 · 14-08-2005 10:33pm

Im not going to get into anymore personal stuff From now on tis is a pagan baord and im sticking to basic pagan issues.

I disagree completely there are many places you can draw from like Archaeological sources, the historical sources from roman authors,Insular literature ie The Legends and our folk traditions. All it takes is a little time and effort.

Here is a link to a paper on the topic
http://draeconin.com/database/celtreli.htm

Nevyn · 15-08-2005 12:15am

ArdRi79 wrote:

I disagree completely there are many places you can draw from like Archaeological sources, the historical sources from roman authors,Insular literature ie The Legends and our folk traditions. All it takes is a little time and effort.

Here is a link to a paper on the topic
http://draeconin.com/database/celtreli.htm

Yes but that will all be reconstuction of ways past at best
and hence could be considered Neo.

and you have to take anything the romans reported with a huge dose of salts. A lot of what they recorded about the old relgions was often willfully misleading depending on who they were and to whom they were reporting.

Yes the legends tell us a lot and the old traditions are still held to in a lot of the places that had maybe a veneer of christiantly smeared over them
but a lot of it is lost and will unfortunatly stay that way.

Intresting paper, (shame really that the depts in maynooth and UCD dont
have simular online rescources tbh) but it is generic 'Celtic' and there are
many difference between those that were celts but irish/welsh/manx/breton/basque/cornish.
and I dont like the fact it is trying to sort out the celtic gods along
greek/roman lines.

A lot of the things listed there I have already done ( and will continue to do)
from a very young age when I first devoured every book on faire tales at the local libraries.

One of the things I have always found wonderfull is that our Gods
( in many cases choose to come here) walk these lands and played
out thier lifes (mortal) drama before moving on , just out of reach or
beyond the veil.

They lived, lusted,loved, longed for, lost and endured where we are
and can be in this very landscape. One of the reasons Eire is so sacred to me.

DaisyDuke · 08-09-2005 12:07pm

Just as a little aside, Silja isn't pagan any more. Hasn't been for a couple of years.
Just an FYI, and all of that.

Asiaprod · 03-10-2005 8:06am

Talliesin wrote: The rites in the Craft generally also termed "handfasting" can be for as brief a period, but they can also be for considerably longer than "until death do us part" and have effects that last so long that I'd recommend they not be done on such terms unless the couple already have memories that go back before this life time, even if not of each other. Many people don't remember beyond the one life and that makes it difficult to understand the ways in which we can be bound to people.

Can you provide me with more info on being bound together beyond ones life time. I am sure you have seen my posting on the Christianity board where I explained I had spent 30 years as a RC before converting to Buddhism (not much room for Pagans beliefs here in Japan, in fact japanese thought on any of this topic is spartan to say the least. One of the reasons I became interested in Budhism was the concept of reincarnation, and more so, the concept of spending previous lives in the company of people one knows in this life. I have a keen interest in old world religeons that do not depend on God or the bible, but are rooted firmly in this world, nature and a natural order of things. Any pointers or explinations would be very appriciated.

Peter Kearney (Tokyo)

Nevyn · 03-10-2005 10:01am

DaisyDuke wrote:

Just as a little aside, Silja isn't pagan any more. Hasn't been for a couple of years.
Just an FYI, and all of that.

We Don't out people here one way or the other.
Silja is a registered member of this site and if she wished to make a statement
or defend herself she is free to do so.
We do wish her well where ever her path has led her.

Nevyn · 03-10-2005 10:07am

Asiaprod wrote:

Can you provide me with more info on being bound together beyond ones life time.

There is a provision if one believes in such things to tag or tie souls together
or interconnect them so that the will have a link in lives to come.
sounds great and wonderfull but really who can tell how life will turn out
and having made such a bond at marriage one would hope it can be undone
if it came to a messy divorce or seperation.

Asiaprod · 04-10-2005 1:55am

Originally posted by Thaedydal
There is a provision if one believes in such things to tag or tie souls together
or interconnect them so that the will have a link in lives to come.

How interesting. In Buddhism we have a similar concept. Some of us believe in duality in life or nature in which there are no singularities. We also acknowledge the importance and power of the female entity. Since we believe in duality and reincarnation, we also hold that in many cases the partner we are with in this life remains our partner or close associate in future lives. Unfortunately there is no guarantee that our current partner in this life will play the same role in the next life. The person who is my wife in this life could turn out to be my husband, wife daughter or son in the next. It is somewhat random. It is pleasing to see that you can actually make a choice for you next life. Under your belief system, what kind of control do you have over future lives. The only control I have is some what control over the type of life it will be i.e. Happy, unhappy.

Legends and Neo-Paganism (Split from "im new to...")

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