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Anyone up for a Pro20 ??

2

Comments

  • #32
    Neil3030
    Registered Users Posts: 16,973 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    less games, less players needed to be contracted especially if you have the top players playing more.

    Or better opportunity for recovery. There'd still be rotation as players (particularly internationals) can't play every game. So the trade off is fewer games, but against better opposition and alongside better team mates. I trust most players would be OK with this, but even if not, I'm sure the IRFU would rather share IQ assets around the provinces than see them sign journeymen from abroad.
    Connacht get more to interpros than some of their European games.

    And what about the rest of the provinces? Leinster-Munster in the Aviva around Christmas is usually a coin-toss as to whether you see even one full strength side. I know I'd certainly rather go to a ERC pool match in either Thomond or the RDS.

    Besides, this whole experiment only works if the increased TV money rises the floor for everyone. So even if matchday revenues initially dip for some Pro12 teams, unless total revenues increase it won't happen.


  • #33
    Digifriendly
    Registered Users Posts: 4,015 ✭✭✭Digifriendly


    Interpros are some of the best attended matches so one league with either home or away would be best solution if if S. African sides join.


  • #34
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    The interpros don't need to be part of the ProXX.


  • #35
    Digifriendly
    Registered Users Posts: 4,015 ✭✭✭Digifriendly


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    The interpros don't need to be part of the ProXX.

    I disagree. Interpros are what generate the biggest crowds whether we like it or not. Even when understrength teams are being fielded in the Christmas/New Year period there tend to be big attendances at these games. Also Welsh derbies and Scottish derbies also generate the biggest crowds in Wales and Scotland respectively. This is the reality. I accept that present system is unbalanced with the 2 Conferences. So without sounding contradictory I hope, it is probably best if extra SA sides are to join, then have one league with either home or away. At least there would then be 3 interpros for each province although for some only one home interpro.


  • #36
    shootermacg
    Registered Users Posts: 4,832 ✭✭✭shootermacg


    Digifriendly wrote: »
    I disagree. Interpros are what generate the biggest crowds whether we like it or not. Even when understrenth teams are being fielded in the Christmas/New Year period there tend to be big attendances at these games. Also Welsh derbies and Scottish derbies also generate the biggest crowds in Wales and Scotland respectively. This is the reality. I accept that present system is unbalanced with the 2 Conferences. So without sounding contradictory I hope, it is probably best if extra SA sides are to join, then have one league with either home or away. At least there would then be 3 interpros for each province although for some only one home interpro.

    Yeah, I like the sound of that. Every team playing every other team would definitely be better than this conference stuff.


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  • #37
    pjdarcy
    Registered Users Posts: 292 ✭✭pjdarcy


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    Wait, where is the 18 or 20 coming from?

    2 out, 4 in, no?

    Pro16?

    Apologies for the confusion, my thread title was a little tongue in cheek


  • #38
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Digifriendly wrote: »
    I disagree. Interpros are what generate the biggest crowds whether we like it or not. Even when understrenth teams are being fielded in the Christmas/New Year period there tend to be big attendances at these games. Also Welsh derbies and Scottish derbies also generate the biggest crowds in Wales and Scotland respectively. This is the reality. I accept that present system is unbalanced with the 2 Conferences. So without sounding contradictory I hope, it is probably best if extra SA sides are to join, then have one league with either home or away. At least there would then be 3 interpros for each province although for some only one home interpro.

    I didn't say stop the interpros, I said they don't need the ProXX. The interpros were a competition that was ingested into the Celtic League. It can still be a competition without it.


  • #39
    Squidgy Black
    Registered Users Posts: 21,605 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    I didn't say stop the interpros, I said they don't need the ProXX. The interpros were a competition that was ingested into the Celtic League. It can still be a competition without it.

    But then they're essentially just warm-up games/friendlies. If they don't count towards ProXX standings or European Cup they're going to be seen as pointless by the provinces and it'll just be B teams getting a run out while they rest the starting 15 for the competitions that actually matter. Even with them counting for standings in the Pro14 at the moment we rarely get two full starting squads playing each other due to rotation in an interpro over Christmas.


  • #40
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Replicate the 1872 Cup. Give a seperate trophy to the best province of a mini-table of 4 between all the Pro14 interpros. The winning province could get a cash prize to be used on their academy/domestic game. Of course the shadow squads in many of those interpros ruin this idea...


  • #41
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Squidgy Black wrote: »
    But then they're essentially just warm-up games/friendlies. If they don't count towards ProXX standings or European Cup they're going to be seen as pointless by the provinces and it'll just be B teams getting a run out while they rest the starting 15 for the competitions that actually matter. Even with them counting for standings in the Pro14 at the moment we rarely get two full starting squads playing each other due to rotation in an interpro over Christmas.

    So your issue with it, is you are afraid something that already happens, is likely to happen?

    Last time I got a program a few years back, they were still rating InterPros as separate competition, but games taking place within the Celtic League / Pro12 calendar. They aren't dependant on it.


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  • #42
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    Or better opportunity for recovery. There'd still be rotation as players (particularly internationals) can't play every game. So the trade off is fewer games, but against better opposition and alongside better team mates. I trust most players would be OK with this, but even if not, I'm sure the IRFU would rather share IQ assets around the provinces than see them sign journeymen from abroad.
    better recovery for who exactly? Less games means less game time available which means you dont need as many contracted players which isnt a good thing. We should be providing more games for our pro players not less.
    Dravokivich wrote: »
    The interpros don't need to be part of the ProXX.
    they do. You would just see fewer and fewer top players involved in the games if they're outside of the league
    Digifriendly wrote: »
    I disagree. Interpros are what generate the biggest crowds whether we like it or not. Even when understrenth teams are being fielded in the Christmas/New Year period there tend to be big attendances at these games. Also Welsh derbies and Scottish derbies also generate the biggest crowds in Wales and Scotland respectively. This is the reality. I accept that present system is unbalanced with the 2 Conferences. So without sounding contradictory I hope, it is probably best if extra SA sides are to join, then have one league with either home or away. At least there would then be 3 interpros for each province although for some only one home interpro.
    you should still be able to maintain provincial games home and away within the league format. Reducing the league to just home or away isnt needed. Yes it means everyone will have different fixture lists over a season but its necessary for income and
    Dravokivich wrote: »
    I didn't say stop the interpros, I said they don't need the ProXX. The interpros were a competition that was ingested into the Celtic League. It can still be a competition without it.
    they do need to stay within the league though. The interpros was the competition but if its outside the league you at least want full strength aides in every game which wont be the case and outside the league teams being fielded will only get weaker over time.


  • #43
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,742 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Pro 16, two pools of 8, play each other twice, Q/FS, S/Fs and final. That's 17 weeks.

    Allow 3 weeks for a separate Inter Pro championship. (20 weeks).

    Europe is 9 weeks (29)

    Six Nations is 5 weeks (34)

    Autumn Internationals are 3 weeks (37)

    Summer tour is 3 weeks (40)

    12 week off season.


  • #44
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,953 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    bilston wrote: »
    Pro 16, two pools of 8, play each other twice, Q/FS, S/Fs and final. That's 17 weeks.
    .

    do you split all the separate nations in 2 pools? ie leinster / ulster in one, munster connacht in the other?


  • #45
    Digifriendly
    Registered Users Posts: 4,015 ✭✭✭Digifriendly


    bilston wrote: »
    Pro 16, two pools of 8, play each other twice, Q/FS, S/Fs and final. That's 17 weeks.

    Allow 3 weeks for a separate Inter Pro championship. (20 weeks).

    Europe is 9 weeks (29)

    Six Nations is 5 weeks (34)

    Autumn Internationals are 3 weeks (37)

    Summer tour is 3 weeks (40)

    12 week off season.

    What of Wales/Scotland/italy then? Do their Pro 16 players play less games than Irish? This also divides Interpros into Pro 16 and separate Inter pro competition. Confusing to say the least.


  • #46
    connachta
    Registered Users Posts: 7,963 ✭✭✭connachta


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    One league where you play everyone home or away could be good.

    Two pools were you play everyone home and away could also be good.

    The format of the Pro14 has to be avoided though.




    we've agreed !


  • #47
    connachta
    Registered Users Posts: 7,963 ✭✭✭connachta


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    Two pools of 8 with generous qualification to the playoffs makes a lot of sense to me.

    Everyone in your pool home and away (14 games). No nonsense with cross-pool matches or keeping he derbies.

    Then let the top 4 from each pool into an 8 team QF.

    Keeps the workload comparatively light, vis other European leagues. Plenty of incentive to put a strong team out in most fixtures.




    100% Agree


  • #48
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,742 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Digifriendly wrote: »
    What of Wales/Scotland/italy then? Do their Pro 16 players play less games than Irish? This also divides Interpros into Pro 16 and separate Inter pro competition. Confusing to say the least.

    The Inter Pros are a completely separate competition.

    I don't care what Scotland, Wales and Italy do. That's a matter for them.

    Maybe I haven't explained it very well, but it really isn't confusing at all Digi!!


  • #49
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,742 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    do you split all the separate nations in 2 pools? ie leinster / ulster in one, munster connacht in the other?

    Not sure about that. The conference with the 4 SA sides would be completely imbalanced compared to the other. I'd be inclined to go the way we are at the minute which is why I'd have a separate Inter Pro competition. I accept the LS points about revenue from Inter Pros.

    Any system will be imperfect, but I do think getting the SA big 4 involved will strengthen the competition massively.

    All that said, my first choice is and always has been for a B+I League (not for political reasons as I was bizarrely accused off a week or two ago!).


  • #50
    Neil3030
    Registered Users Posts: 16,973 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    My personal preference would be spitting everyone up, similar to the current format.

    So if it were two pools of 8, each pool would have 2 Irish, 2 Welsh, 2 SA, 1 Scot, 1 Italian.

    I'm undecided whether to rebalance them each season off last year's performance, or leave them permanently a la the NFL conferences... If you want to build new rivalries, you go with the latter I'd say.


  • #51
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    My personal preference would be spitting everyone up, similar to the current format.

    So if it were two pools of 8, each pool would have 2 Irish, 2 Welsh, 2 SA, 1 Scot, 1 Italian.

    I'm undecided whether to rebalance them each season off last year's performance, or leave them permanently a la the NFL conferences... If you want to build new rivalries, you go with the latter I'd say.
    new rivalries wont replace income of games against sides from your country


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  • #52
    Dylbag
    Registered Users Posts: 37 ✭Dylbag


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    new rivalries wont replace income of games against sides from your country

    True.


    If there could be an agreement where proXX games between teams from your own country could fall under a dual broadcasting deal which would allow the IRFU for example to promote their own inter pro series and sell rights etc. To make up for the loss of earnings with gate receipts.


  • #53
    Digifriendly
    Registered Users Posts: 4,015 ✭✭✭Digifriendly


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    My personal preference would be spitting everyone up, similar to the current format.

    So if it were two pools of 8, each pool would have 2 Irish, 2 Welsh, 2 SA, 1 Scot, 1 Italian.

    I'm undecided whether to rebalance them each season off last year's performance, or leave them permanently a la the NFL conferences... If you want to build new rivalries, you go with the latter I'd say.

    I think that might at present be breaking government regulations. :):)


  • #54
    Neil3030
    Registered Users Posts: 16,973 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    new rivalries wont replace income of games against sides from your country

    They don't have to.


  • #55
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    They don't have to.
    So where do you replace that income from then? Match day revenue is key to all sides and losing your biggest days out and all associated income from them would be idiotic.


  • #56
    Neil3030
    Registered Users Posts: 16,973 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    So where do you replace that income from then? Match day revenue is key to all sides and losing your biggest days out and all associated income from them would be idiotic.

    TV money. The whole reason SA teams are being entertained in the first place.


  • #57
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    TV money. The whole reason SA teams are being entertained in the first place.
    TV money only goes some of the way and if you remove a lot of the games that get your best attendance in the season you are weakening the product you sell to TV companies. It doesnt make sense


  • #58
    Neil3030
    Registered Users Posts: 16,973 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    TV money only goes some of the way and if you remove a lot of the games that get your best attendance in the season you are weakening the product you sell to TV companies. It doesnt make sense

    Do you mind sharing those numbers with me?


  • #59
    connachta
    Registered Users Posts: 7,963 ✭✭✭connachta


    You can have the 4 missing interpros per Provinces on a Summer tournament, which will work well IMO


  • #60
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    connachta wrote: »
    You can have the 4 missing interpros per Provinces on a Summer tournament, which will work well IMO

    Nobody would attend pre season interpros. If its not a competive competition, which a preseason tournament wouldn't be, they attraction would not be there.

    And they'd definitely be minus all the internationals.


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  • #61
    Former Former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    I think it's very unlikely that IRFU would sign up to anything that doesn't include a full programme of interpros, home and away. The other unions would probably be the same.


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