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A voice from our past - Whitaker - speaks out on TG4

  • 24-12-2010 1:00pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭


    THE country's most revered public servant has blamed the institutions of state for creating the economic crisis.
    As head of the Department of Finance, TK Whitaker devised a ground-breaking programme for economic recovery in 1958, which opened up the State's economy and helped to eliminate the scourges of emigration and unemployment.


    But, in a new TG4 documentary to be broadcast next week, he laid the blame on the institutions of state for creating the current economic crisis.
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/those-who-shouted-stop-were-ignored-whitaker-2473180.html

    I think it should be interesting that we have a historic voice from the 1950s commentating on the current situation.


Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    MarchDub wrote: »
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/those-who-shouted-stop-were-ignored-whitaker-2473180.html

    I think it should be interesting that we have a historic voice from the 1950s commentating on the current situation.

    I have mixed views on Whitaker - but who can name a public servant these days with either vision or integrity.

    My critisism is that he and others created the "Corporate State" based on the Scandanavian model - with a public service represented by powerful unions which has led to the de-democratisation of our system of government.

    There has been no substantive work done on the role of Taoiseach and senior civil servants since Brian Farrells " Chairman or Chief"in 1971 .

    Maybe I am being harsh, but for me the current system is largely as a result of him and Lemass.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    CDfm wrote: »

    My critisism is that he and others created the "Corporate State" based on the Scandanavian model - with a public service represented by powerful unions which has led to the de-democratisation of our system of government.

    There has been no substantive work done on the role of Taoiseach and senior civil servants since Brian Farrells " Chairman or Chief"in 1971 .

    Maybe I am being harsh, but for me the current system is largely as a result of him and Lemass.

    I would blame the current systems deficiancies on the time intervening whitakers influence (ending with his election to the senate in 1977) and now. Development of over zealous unions, trumping up of politicians and top civil servant salaries/ rewards, lack of accountability and the public service money wasting that we all see everyday have all developed expedentially in this period of time.
    I have seen him speak several times and I think it will be interesting to see what he says.
    I would agree that many current roles need to be redefined and heard a Fianna Fail TD McGuinness referring to the nitty gritty of this when talking about a book he had out this year. Sorry but I have'nt read the book so cant expand further!!!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    CDfm wrote: »
    I have mixed views on Whitaker.... My critisism is that he and others created the "Corporate State" based on the Scandanavian model - with a public service represented by powerful unions which has led to the de-democratisation of our system of government.

    Interesting, but how come if the 'Scandinavian model' is to blame, we are having problems far greater than the model (s) which exists in Scandinavia?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    It has been years since I read up on this stuff -but the Scandinavian System and the Corporate State was one that Lemass and Whitaker were both highly influenced by.

    I am just putting it in there ,because in my view , succesive governments have accepted the corporate state since that time and, the unelected participants in the so called social partnerships have had a field day.

    So while Lemass and Whitaker may have been good men and strong leaders in their day ,nonetheless, their system of avoiding constitutional checks and balances has gone badly wrong and was concieved by them.

    Senior civil servants in his era avoided dealing with paedophile priests/institutions etc which has now cost the state 2 billion.

    I am not saying that it is Whitakers fault but he was one of the architects of the system that went haywire.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,974 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    CDfm wrote: »
    It has been years since I read up on this stuff -but the Scandinavian System and the Corporate State was one that Lemass and Whitaker were both highly influenced by.

    I am just putting it in there ,because in my view , succesive governments have accepted the corporate state since that time and, the unelected participants in the so called social partnerships have had a field day.

    So while Lemass and Whitaker may have been good men and strong leaders in their day ,nonetheless, their system of avoiding constitutional checks and balances has gone badly wrong and was concieved by them.

    Senior civil servants in his era avoided dealing with paedophile priests/institutions etc which has now cost the state 2 billion.

    I am not saying that it is Whitakers fault but he was one of the architects of the system that went haywire.

    Did it not occur to anyone involved, that the checks and balances needed to be in place, or did they just assume that no-one would cross the line? Perhaps it was suggested by someone, possibly Whitaker, before being dismissed by Lemass? I can see a career civil-servant covering all angles, but I can also see a politician saying that it wasn't necessary, in the "Shure, it'll be fine" school of thought.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    Did it not occur to anyone involved, that the checks and balances needed to be in place, or did they just assume that no-one would cross the line? Perhaps it was suggested by someone, possibly Whitaker, before being dismissed by Lemass? I can see a career civil-servant covering all angles, but I can also see a politician saying that it wasn't necessary, in the "Shure, it'll be fine" school of thought.

    I do think that Irish Civil Servants might have a particular culture of clientism and absence of responsibility.

    Now I am not saying that that it is the fault of Lemass or Whitaker and they were a cool double act with getting the economic thing kick started.

    Ray McSharry was another gifted guy.

    Maybe though having introduced the Concept of the Corporate State and Power Sharing that they didnt develop the system of controls.

    I had some fun on After Hours yesterday discussing these things on a Cork as the Capital thread and lots of people did not get the concepts.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    CDfm wrote: »
    It has been years since I read up on this stuff -but the Scandinavian System and the Corporate State was one that Lemass and Whitaker were both highly influenced by.

    I don't see anything in what Lemass and Whittaker did to show they were working to create an economy based on the Swedish model, can you expand?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    I don't see anything in what Lemass and Whittaker did to show they were working to create an economy based on the Swedish model, can you expand?

    I would have to go digging.

    But I read up on this years ago and came accross it again recently. It was around the time of Irelands attempt to join the EU circa 1961.

    It was not the economy which was based on the Swedish Model but the decision making within the state.

    So for example , you have a Corporate Body (interest group or union) then this group is negotiated with. It is recognised as a stakeholder in the decision making process -even if it has no legitimate rights -it is accorded them.

    For example, Womens Rights Groups under this model are accorded representation to contribute in social and family law issues and recieves funding -just like a qango.

    You also had it in the Residential Institutions Redress Issues where the parties are linked thru clientism etc. The religious orders were not held to account as they were viewed as insiders. It goes some way in explaining why action was not taken by civil servants and the weakness of their explanations.

    This evolved thru observing how the governmental system operated in Sweden etc but without the cultural values within the civil service.

    Thats not saying that some of the conditions did not exist in Ireland for this, but, Lemass and Whitaker were the thinkers that really codified it.

    The system in Sweden dates from the time of Gustavus Adolphus (17 th century). The King modernised Sweden and was almost marxist in his approach and the power structure was Hierarchical -a benevolent dictatorship but also having concensus thru the various estates -like nobility and peasants.

    I will have a look as I am sure I posted something on it somewhere.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Edit :Following a Nordic/Scandanavian Model
    Management of State-Owned Enterprise ownership policy
    The manner in which SOEs shareholdings are managed by their shareholders is
    constantly evolving. As the OECD identifies (Figure 1 below), the most recent
    development in managing ownership policy is the delegation of shareholding
    responsibilities to single organisational units. This system has traditionally been usedin the Nordic states, (where there is a strong tradition of state ownership and SOEs
    form a large part of the national economy)
    but also within EU states such as Belgium,
    Poland and Spain. What is of interest is the attraction towards this model not only by
    countries more associated with strong statist tradition (France) but also by countries
    with more fragmented administrative structures (UK, Australia).

    http://www.ucd.ie/geary/static/publications/workingpapers/gearywp201040.pdf




    A piece by Ronan Fanning is Professor Emeritus of Modern History at University College Dublin as a bit of scene setting.


    Now think Croke Park Agreement and its non implementation costing as much to date as the Anglo Irish bailout.



    There is very little accountability in the model and it works when everyone is in agreement and can put their short term needs aside for long term goals.





    The Cosgrave governments of 1922-32 never contemplated breaking the sterling link with Britain. Neither did breaking the link with sterling form any part of the agenda of Eamon de Valera's governments in 1932-38 despite his then revolutionising the constitutional relationship with Britain. And Sean MacBride, the former chief of staff of the IRA and then leader of Clann na Poblachta and Minister for External Affairs, was a voice vainly crying in the wilderness when he argued for dissociating Ireland from the British government's devaluation of sterling in 1949.
    Sean Lemass was the first Taoiseach who articulated and best understood how the relationship between political sovereignty and fiscal policy might evolve in our own time. "A movement to [European] political confederation in some form is indeed a natural and logical development of economic integration," he told the Fianna Fail Ard Fheis in January 1962, when he proposed a motion approving his government's handling of the negotiations for Ireland's entry into what was then the European Economic Community (EEC). "Henceforth our national aims", said Lemass, "must conform to the emergence, in a political as well as in an economic sense, of a union of Western European states, not as a vague prospect of the distant future but as a living reality of our own times." Lemass's contempt for the Green Blanket Brigade was even more dramatically reflected in an interview he gave to The New York Times in July 1962, when he unequivocally declared that "a military commitment will be an inevitable consequence of our joining the Common Market and ultimately we would be prepared to yield even the technical label of neutrality. We are prepared to go into this integrated Europe without any reservation as to how far this will take us in the field of foreign policy and defence". That he had no reservations as to how far it might take us in the field of fiscal policy went without saying.
    In the event, General de Gaulle's veto of the contemporaneous British application postponed Ireland's entry into Europe for over a decade. But it was a measure of Lemass's recognition of "living reality" when set against a mythical sovereignty that, once Britain's application failed, Ireland's application fell by association because the link with sterling and Ireland's inter-dependence with the British economy then remained sacrosanct. Although Lemass was already dead when Ireland and Britain finally joined the EEC on January 1, 1973, he was the founding father of Ireland's European initiative. His belated conversion to free trade, his early identification of the reality that Ireland's future lay in Europe and, not least, his success in enlisting the bipartisan support of Fine Gael ensured that Ireland's European enterprise became from the outset a truly national enterprise.
    For it was the 1973-77 government led by a Fine Gael Taoiseach, Liam Cosgrave, with the next Fine Gael Taoiseach and that most ardent of Europhiles, Garret FitzGerald, as Minister for Foreign Affairs, who drove forward the national enterprise of ensuring Ireland was at the heart of Europe. Such were the foundations of the decision taken by Jack Lynch's government in December 1978 to join the European Monetary System (EMS), notwithstanding Britain's remaining outside. The establishment of the EMS, in March 1979, finally paved the way for breaking the connection between the Irish currency and the pound sterling which went all the way back to 1826.
    So let's be blunt about it: Ireland's joining the EMS was never about going it alone in pursuit of some mythical conception of fiscal sovereignty. Ireland only abandoned sterling when an alternative European monetary safety net was in place. It was an assertion not of fiscal independence but of inter-dependence, an expression of that preference for the European connection as opposed to the British connection that has characterised Irish foreign policy since 1973. The same preference dictated Ireland's decision to become one of the 11 countries which initially comprised the eurozone when the euro was introduced in 1999.
    The choice now facing us is stark. We can go on moaning and whining about affronts to Irish sovereignty, clinging to our green blankets as we wallow in the present pathetic orgy of self-pity and keening with Joan Burton that the country's banjanxed. Or we can face up to our responsibilities as a member of the eurozone and do what we can to repair the damage inflicted by our inadequately regulated bankers and property developers and by the ineptitude of a Department of Finance which is indeed no longer fit for purpose.

    Now read Dr Gary Murphy's paper by Corporate State think the power of interest groups. The public service is a major interest group , and, one might say there is conflict between the government departments roles.

    Towards a Corporate State?

    Sean Lemass and the Realignment of Interest Groups in the Policy Process 1948-1964


    Abstract:
    This paper analyses the transformation of Irish economic policy formulation from the formation of the first inter-party government in 1948 to the breakdown of Ireland’s application to join the EEC in 1963. It shows that the influence of trade unions, employers’ groups and farmers’ organisations on policy making in the period marked the inception of a corporatist style approach to national policy making. This period saw a general evolution in the process of the formulation of public policy towards a more conscious and overt tripartite set of arrangements. There was a gradual maturation of relations between the emerging interest groups and the government in the policy realm. The formalisation of these interest groups wherein they played a role in the long term policy planning process is emphasised. While their various representatives made strenuous efforts to advance their members’ sectional interests, all groups were able to take a strikingly dispassionate and long term view of the country’s economic prospects. This paper stresses the importance of Sean Lemass both in opposition and in government and argues that he was the key player in moving the country from a policy of protectionism to one where interdependence with other economies was assumed. By pointing out explicitly to the various economic actors in the Irish body politic that ideological change was needed in the formulation of economic policy, the Fianna Fail government of 1957-1961 was able to set out a concrete agenda for the development of the Irish economy by the early 1960s. Export-led industrialisation and economic co-operation with Europe were at the heart of theses new methods. Ultimately Irish economic policy formulation had moved dramatically in an ideological sense in the fifteen years since 1948: the new ideology was a formalised proto corporatist style social democracy which involved all the key players collectively in responsible decision making.


    http://www.dcu.ie/dcubs/research_papers/no23.html

    More on interest groups and politics being about winning elections


    It is in these terms that one can see Lemass’s courtship of the various economic interest groups in the period. It was his view that the development of the country in economic terms necessarily revolved around a corporatist style arrangement with the government leading these groups in a new economic partnership. For that to happen, Lemass realised that government in its political form would have to be the hegemonic player in the policy making system. Of even more importance was that he be at the head of such a system and for that to happen he would have to devise a long term economic strategy that would return Fianna Fáil to government. While he bemoaned the fact that civil servants did not do enough independent thinking, he was firmly of the belief that it was political government which should lead. It is in that context that one can see the evolution in the process of the formulation of public policy towards a more conscious and overtly corporatist set of arrangements. Within these parameters, the political interests, particularly in the form of Lemass, would lead, but it was intrinsic on individual interest groups, farmers, employers and trade unions to play a full and active role in a modernising coalition of sorts. But of course Lemass had to be in power to enact any significant policy change.
    It can be a bit of a caricature to portray Lemass as the saviour of modern Ireland. The second inter-party government while it undoubtedly made significant mistakes, perhaps principally in 1956 by prolonging the fiscal crisis, was not without its own ideas regarding Ireland’s future.9 The package of grants and reliefs to expand production which were to become the hallmark of the new system of foreign-led industrialisation under free trade, were first mooted by this government in September 1956. It also initiated the Irish application for membership of the International Monetary Fund and of the World Bank. And probably most importantly of all, it was this government’s Minister for Finance Gerald Sweetman who oversaw the process of T.K. Whitaker becoming Secretary of the Department of Finance over traditional civil service promotional norms. Implementing policy is, however, about being in government and politics is about winning elections. In that context the second inter-party government had too much of the aura of bad news about it and lost the 1957 election leaving Fianna Fáil and Lemass to push the modernisation drive.






    http://www.lemass.ie/papers

    Basil Chubb in his book the Government and Politics of Ireland also noted that civil servants often recommended state company board members irresepective of suitability or experience. see page 261

    http://books.google.ie/books?id=AkmrAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA258&lpg=PA258&dq=lemass+and+the+corporate+state+and+sweden&source=bl&ots=kIBkN-m4yF&sig=vR6qw9ze-EhXatUjSx5UpQ63Bdk&hl=en&ei=NkYZTfX7LYGHhQe3q7i3Dg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false


    2008 Countess Markievicz Memorial Lecture, ‘Social Partnership from Lemass to Cowen’, at Trinity College Dublin recently, Prof.Bill Roche





    Sean Lemass had sought to introduce a series of measures that would eventually become features of social partnership, according to Bill Roche, Professor of Industrial Relations and Human Resources in the UCD School of Business. Delivering the 2008 Countess Markievicz Memorial Lecture, ‘Social Partnership from Lemass to Cowen’, at Trinity College Dublin recently, Prof. Roche described Lemass, long-serving Fianna Fail Minister and Taoiseach between 1959 and 1966, as a corporatist visionary and pragmatist, who had sought to transform industrial relations in Ireland on the model of the small European corporatist democracies, in particular, the Netherlands and Sweden. Lemass had sought permanently to centralise pay bargaining in Ireland and to align pay determination with government economic priorities. He had also favoured involving unions in aspects of industrial and workplace governance. When tripartite bargaining between the state, employers and unions, first became a feature of Irish industrial relations during what Prof. Roche described as the ‘Lynch-O’Donoghue Keynesian Interlude’ of the late 1970s, the result, he said, was near economic and industrial relations anarchy. It would take the deep and prolonged economic and social crisis of the 1980s to bring about the changes in the posture of governments, employers and unions that permitted social partnership to function in the broad manner Lemass had envisaged. While Charles Haughey has been viewed either as the supreme champion of social partnership, or as a monetarist in corporatist ‘drag’, Professor Roche said that the record revealed him more as a political opportunist, who had embraced social partnership largely for reasons of realpolitik.
    The social partnership paradigm had been extended in the mid 1990s, by Labour’s Dick Spring and Fine Gael’s John Bruton, when in government they invited civil society groups in the voluntary and community sector to become party to social partnership institutions and agreements. This they had done in response to the continuing political significance of persistently high unemployment and poverty, but their initiatives also reflected concerns in both political parties’ about the accountability and exclusionary proclivities of agreements reached under social partnership.







    Prof. Roche described Taoiseach Brian Cowen’s posture towards social partnership as considerably more instrumental than Ahern’s and more focused on the achievement of short- and medium-term economic, financial and political results. Cowen’s continued sponsorship of a process that is less central to his political identity and reputation is likely to depend on its results in these areas in times of unprecedented challenge, concluded Professor Roche


    http://www.smurfitschool.ie/aboutsmurfit/news/newsarchive/title,24032,en.html


    So the process of policymaking had shifted to the" Corporate State " and that evolved and strengtened over time.

    IMHO - the powers delegated to civil servants have been massive as the public service itself is an interest group.

    What the bailout should mean is more asserive government.


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