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Dawkins sounds off. Lots of atheists upset.

  • 06-07-2011 11:07pm
    #1
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,395 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    During last month's atheist conference in the Alexander Hotel, it seems that some guy invited Rebecca Watson for a coffee back in his room. At four in the morning. While the two of them were alone together in the lift going up. Watson declined, nothing further happened and the two went their separate ways when the lift doors opened. Those are the facts as far as I'm aware of them.

    PZ blogged about it, Dawkins sounded off in the comments section, Watson went nuclear. And now, it's gone viral, even earning a post on Phil Plait's Bad Astronomy.

    Now, I've no idea what happened in the elevator and I suspect that at least one of the participants had a few drinks aboard. But while Dawkin's initial sarcastic response was dumb and unhelpful, the ensuing mad fracas seems to be completely out of all proportion to what actually happened.

    Anybody else been following this?


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Comments

  • #2
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    I was aware it was ongoing but after reading one post I decided I had better things to read. But hey if it helps spread better awareness and understanding of feminism I'm all for it.


  • #3
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    robindch wrote: »
    During last month's atheist conference in the Alexander Hotel, it seems that some guy invited Rebecca Watson for a coffee back in his room. At four in the morning. While the two of them were alone together in the lift going up. Watson declined, nothing further happened and the two went their separate ways when the lift doors opened. Those are the facts as far as I'm aware of them.

    PZ blogged about it, Dawkins sounded off in the comments section, Watson went nuclear. And now, it's gone viral, even earning a post on Phil Plait's Bad Astronomy.

    Now, I've no idea what happened in the elevator and I suspect that at least one of the participants had a few drinks aboard. But while Dawkin's initial sarcastic response was dumb and unhelpful, the ensuing mad fracas seems to be completely out of all proportion to what actually happened.

    Anybody else been following this?

    You can begin to appreciate how easy it is to produce 104,000 Christian denominations..


  • #4
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    You can begin to appreciate how easy it is to produce 104,000 Christian denominations..

    Eh, no just no. This isn't the thread to try and shoehorn in a defence of your mythology.


  • #5
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,226 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    robindch wrote: »
    Now, I've no idea what happened in the elevator and I suspect that at least one of the participants had a few drinks aboard. But while Dawkin's initial sarcastic response was dumb and unhelpful, the ensuing mad fracas seems to be completely out of all proportion to what actually happened.

    Anybody else been following this?
    Well I don't think it was so much his initial comment, but the ones after it.
    Especially the one that refers to the incident as "just words" which seems a little hypocritical given Dawkins' other stances.

    He should have thought a little more before replying to the issue.


  • #6
    liamw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭liamw


    He must have been seriously drunk and desperate


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  • #7
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    This comment?

    "Dear Muslima

    Stop whining, will you. Yes, yes, I know you had your genitals mutilated with a razor blade, and . . . yawn . . . don't tell me yet again, I know you aren't allowed to drive a car, and you can't leave the house without a male relative, and your husband is allowed to beat you, and you'll be stoned to death if you commit adultery. But stop whining, will you. Think of the suffering your poor American sisters have to put up with.

    Only this week I heard of one, she calls herself Skep"chick", and do you know what happened to her? A man in a hotel elevator invited her back to his room for coffee. I am not exaggerating. He really did. He invited her back to his room for coffee. Of course she said no, and of course he didn't lay a finger on her, but even so . . .

    And you, Muslima, think you have misogyny to complain about! For goodness sake grow up, or at least grow a thicker skin.

    Richard"

    I found it amusing....


    >_>


  • #8
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    Galvasean wrote: »
    I found it amusing....


    >_>

    Amusing or not, it's a very poor argument, essentially it boils down to 'worse stuff happens, so you have no right to complain'. It's not even an argument it's simply dismissive.

    Either the man who propositioned her in the elevator was wrong to do so, or he was not. Anything else is a red herring.


  • #9
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    I think that claiming that someone asking you back to their place for coffee is sexism is stupid. <-- PZ Meyers with the sexism claim there. Watson just said it made her feel uncomfortable, which is fair enough, you feel how you feel.

    Dawkins response was completely over the top and hyperbolic, and as we know Richard Dawkins is never hyperbolic. :rolleyes:

    I think your one's response to Dawkins response was worse again.

    Big storm in a little teacup. They should all try acting like adults for a second.


  • #10
    sionnach
    Registered Users Posts: 2,543 ✭✭✭sionnach


    sink wrote: »
    Amusing or not, it's a very poor argument, essentially it boils down to 'worse stuff happens, so you have no right to complain'. It's not even an argument it's simply dismissive.

    I don't quite agree. That implies that Dawkins thinks the act was misogynistic and bad but that other things are worse.
    In my view he's saying that what happened wasn't at all bad or misogynistic and he describes actual misogyny for comparison.


  • #11
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    So wait, it's sexism to proposition someone now?

    Feck. :(


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  • #12
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    sionnach wrote: »
    I don't quite agree. That implies that Dawkins thinks the act was misogynistic and bad but that other things are worse.
    In my view he's saying that what happened wasn't at all bad or misogynistic and he describes actual misogyny for comparison.

    That was also my interpretation of it.


  • #13
    sionnach
    Registered Users Posts: 2,543 ✭✭✭sionnach


    Galvasean wrote: »
    So wait, it's sexism to proposition someone now?

    Feck. :(

    Don't forget that all middle-aged men are paedophiles too


  • #14
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    Galvasean wrote: »
    So wait, it's sexism to proposition someone now?

    Feck. :(

    No, just given the circumstance, highly inappropriate. If the man wasn't a complete stranger it maybe ok, but she had never spoken to him before and he made his not so veiled attempt when the two of them were alone in a confined space. He could have asked her earlier in the bar or simply started polite conversation/mild flirting and seen if she was receptive before asking did she want to get down and dirty.


  • #15
    whatdoicare
    Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭whatdoicare


    Wow, so, he asked yer one back for a coffee and she said no, he said okilydokily neighbourino and that's the end of the story??
    Did I miss something?


  • #16
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    sink wrote: »
    before asking did she want to get down and dirty.

    To be fair he asked her {paraphrasing from her vid} "Don't take this wrong, but I thought you were really interesting, would you like to come up to my room for some coffee to talk more". It's hardly asking if she wants to "get down and dirty".


  • #17
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    sink wrote: »
    No, just given the circumstance, highly inappropriate. If the man wasn't a complete stranger it maybe ok, but she had never spoken to him before and he made his not so veiled attempt when the two of them were alone in a confined space. He could have asked her earlier in the bar or simply started polite conversation/mild flirting and seen if she was receptive before asking did she want to get down and dirty.

    Especially when the dude knew she was going to be uncomfortable with it.
    "Don't take this the wrong way but... <invite for coffee"
    Yeah right, you're with a known feminist but you're a complete stranger who pretty much just spoke earlier about feminism and you have the audacity to ask her something you know she's probably gonna take up the wrong way at 4.00 a.m when your alone with her in the elevator.


  • #18
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    ^
    Heh, great minds think alike Malty...

    ...Wait, dude... what?


  • #19
    AhSureTisGrand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,327 ✭✭✭AhSureTisGrand


    sink wrote: »
    Amusing or not, it's a very poor argument, essentially it boils down to 'worse stuff happens, so you have no right to complain'. It's not even an argument it's simply dismissive.

    It seemed to me that his point was that making such a fuss of nothing was an insult to the women who actually do suffer from sexism. Not dissimilar to the Catholics who claim to be persecuted by boards.ie for not having a Catholic moderator, when Christians in other parts of the globe are being murdered for their beliefs


  • #20
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    whatdoicare wrote: »
    Wow, so, he asked yer one back for a coffee and she said no, he said okilydokily neighbourino and that's the end of the story??
    Did I miss something?

    Didn't you know....

    tumblr_l8tuh9UKAA1qdybmoo1_500.jpg&sa=X&ei=gfUUToqVJcTKsgbBt8n2Dg&ved=0CAQQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNEi4-XX7OjX2zq3g9FuHP08ZVfGsA


  • #21
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Galvasean wrote: »
    Didn't you know....

    http://www.google.ie/url?source=imgres&ct=img&q=http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l8tuh9UKAA1qdybmoo1_500.jpg&sa=X&ei=gfUUToqVJcTKsgbBt8n2Dg&ved=0CAQQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNEi4-XX7OjX2zq3g9FuHP08ZVfGsA

    That.....is........just..........freeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaakkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkyyyyyyyy.


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  • #22
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    strobe wrote: »
    To be fair he asked her {paraphrasing from her vid} "Don't take this wrong, but I thought you were really interesting, would you like to come up to my room for some coffee to talk more". It's hardly asking if she wants to "get down and dirty".

    I see your not familiar with innuendo, perhaps you should read up on it.


  • #23
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    sink wrote: »
    I see your not familiar with innuendo, perhaps you should read up on it.

    I was reading up on it recently actually, in preparation for the World Innuendo Championships. I won't be competing myself but I have decided to enter my sister.


  • #24
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Why the feck do I keep reading 'Innuendo' as 'Impedimenta' has someone put a hex on me or something?


  • #25
    tawnyowl
    Registered Users Posts: 510 ✭✭✭tawnyowl


    strobe wrote: »
    To be fair he asked her {paraphrasing from her vid} "Don't take this wrong, but I thought you were really interesting, would you like to come up to my room for some coffee to talk more". It's hardly asking if she wants to "get down and dirty".
    Asking someone back to your place for coffee is often the modern equivalent of "Would you like to see my etchings?"


  • #26
    The Scientician
    Registered Users Posts: 1,724 ✭✭✭The Scientician


    Oh no with Dawkins tainted who shall we worship as our leader? :D


  • #27
    The Scientician
    Registered Users Posts: 1,724 ✭✭✭The Scientician


    tawnyowl wrote: »
    Asking someone back to your place for coffee is often the modern equivalent of "Would you like to see my etchings?"

    No "Giz a shot of your gee/mickey" is apparently, so say de kids anyway.


  • #28
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    tawnyowl wrote: »
    Asking someone back to your place for coffee is often the modern equivalent of "Would you like to see my etchings?"

    I've seen American sitcoms. I was just pointing out that it wasn't as overt as asking 'want to get down and dirty'. I'm sure it was probably a round about proposition, but it was put forward in the most inoffensively worded way humanly imaginable.


  • #29
    tawnyowl
    Registered Users Posts: 510 ✭✭✭tawnyowl


    whatdoicare wrote: »
    Wow, so, he asked yer one back for a coffee and she said no, he said okilydokily neighbourino and that's the end of the story??
    Did I miss something?

    Rebecca Watson mentioned in passing on a video, saying something to the effect that "it's creepy and it would be a good idea to not do it".


  • #30
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    The Scientician wrote: »
    Oh no with Dawkins tainted who shall we worship as our leader? :D

    HAVEN'T YOU BEEN PAYING ATTENTION!!?:mad:


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  • #31
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    Malty_T wrote: »

    HAVEN'T YOU BEEN PAYING ATTENTION!!?:mad:

    :( That's very sexist Malty.


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