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Collins vs De Valera

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,434 ✭✭✭Jolly Red Giant


    judestynes wrote: »
    Has anyone else noticed Dev is the only personality from that period of our history with nothing named after him. Not a road a street a park not even a park bench. If anyone is aware of anything named for him I'd be interested in knowing of it. I just think it's fascinating in our culture we love to honour significant people in such a way and Dev is conspicuously missing.

    DeValera public park Ennis
    DeValera Park Limerick
    DeValera Park Sligo
    DeValera Park Drumconrath
    DeValera Place Dublin 2
    DeValera Street Youghal

    There is also quite a few places called after DeV in other countries.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    Bonaparte is not common either in France compared to other statesmen/military. There is just one in Paris, the rue Bonaparte, and none of the quais or bridges are named for him, although several were built on his instructions. There is a Napoleon Bonaparte Bridge in Florida.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,316 ✭✭✭Tilikum17


    Collins.


  • Registered Users Posts: 264 ✭✭judestynes


    DeValera public park Ennis
    DeValera Park Limerick
    DeValera Park Sligo
    DeValera Park Drumconrath
    DeValera Place Dublin 2
    DeValera Street Youghal

    There is also quite a few places called after DeV in other countries.

    Thanks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    judestynes wrote: »
    Has anyone else noticed Dev is the only personality from that period of our history with nothing named after him. Not a road a street a park not even a park bench. If anyone is aware of anything named for him I'd be interested in knowing of it. I just think it's fascinating in our culture we love to honour significant people in such a way and Dev is conspicuously missing.

    Fianna Fail headquarters in Mount St (if it's still there) was called Aras de Valera.

    Maybe that doesn't count :)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Fianna Fail headquarters in Mount St (if it's still there) was called Aras de Valera.
    They set up in 13 Upper Mount St pretty early on, but they sold that building in 2001 and moved to a (rented) modern building in 65/66 Lower Mount St, which they still occupy.

    They named the old building "Aras de Valera" some time after de Valera died, and they transferred the name to the new building when they moved.

    De Valera's childhood home outside Bruree, later a museum, was occasionally referred to as "Aras de Valera", but I think now it has been combined with his former national school as the "De Valera Museum and Bruree Heritage Centre".


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,215 ✭✭✭✭Suckit


    judestynes wrote: »
    Has anyone else noticed Dev is the only personality from that period of our history with nothing named after him. Not a road a street a park not even a park bench. If anyone is aware of anything named for him I'd be interested in knowing of it. I just think it's fascinating in our culture we love to honour significant people in such a way and Dev is conspicuously missing.

    Building developers have parks and roads named after them now... That's depressing.

    I believe Dev has some backwater places named after him, and an area almost mirror distance over the Liffey from Boland Mills on the Northside. Probably a few more where (new) landowners were looked after.

    Edited.

    I just saw the posts on this page.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Suckit wrote: »
    Building developers have parks and roads named after them now... That's depressing.
    What do you mean, "now"? Are you under the impression that this is a recent phenomenon? This has been the norm pretty much since organised building development started.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,215 ✭✭✭✭Suckit


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    What do you mean, "now"? Are you under the impression that this is a recent phenomenon? This has been the norm pretty much since organised building development started.

    Yes, was under that impression right until I saw your post 3 seconds ago.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    They set up in 13 Upper Mount St pretty early on, but they sold that building in 2001 and moved to a (rented) modern building in 65/66 Lower Mount St, which they still occupy.

    They named the old building "Aras de Valera" some time after de Valera died, and they transferred the name to the new building when they moved.

    De Valera's childhood home outside Bruree, later a museum, was occasionally referred to as "Aras de Valera", but I think now it has been combined with his former national school as the "De Valera Museum and Bruree Heritage Centre".

    I used to walk down Upper Mount St every morning back in the 1980s and was amused that Fianna Fail and Fine Gael party headquarters were each just across the road from each other. Within spitting distance, you might say. :)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭tabbey


    I used to walk down Upper Mount St every morning back in the 1980s and was amused that Fianna Fail and Fine Gael party headquarters were each just across the road from each other. Within spitting distance, you might say. :)

    Or even a stone's throw.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man



    And as for modern parallels: Watch what happens with Boris, Rees-Mogg et al in England over this Brexit nonsense. They will try to shaft May, but after whatever deal is decided is done. Not before.
    It's a fairly familiar Machiavellian tactic.
    As I'm sure you know. :)

    Stephen Colllins in today's Irish Times sees parallels between Mrs May's predicament and that of Michael Collins 98 years ago.

    As a wise man once said, it's better to be wrong than vague when making forecasts and despite the fact that a rabid Torygraph journalist and Brexit-supporting oik confidently declared on BBC's Question Time last night that he wouldn't be surprised if Theresa May resigned before midnight tonight, I still think she will hang on until Brexit (hard, soft or downright squishy) happens on March 29th next year.

    Who would want her job before then? They need a scapegoat to blame for everything.

    She's it.

    You can laugh if I'm wrong. ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭Ascendant


    Stephen Colllins in today's Irish Times sees parallels between Mrs May's predicament and that of Michael Collins 98 years ago.

    As a wise man once said, it's better to be wrong than vague when making forecasts and despite the fact that a rabid Torygraph journalist and Brexit-supporting oik confidently declared on BBC's Question Time last night that he wouldn't be surprised if Theresa May resigned before midnight tonight, I still think she will hang on until Brexit (hard, soft or downright squishy) happens on March 29th next year.

    Who would want her job before then? They need a scapegoat to blame for everything.

    She's it.

    You can laugh if I'm wrong. ;)


    In fairness, Rees-Mogg and BJ are unlikely to lead an armed takeover of the Old Bailey and wait it out 'til civil war should anything other than Hard Brexit pass through.


  • Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭Ascendant


    I used to walk down Upper Mount St every morning back in the 1980s and was amused that Fianna Fail and Fine Gael party headquarters were each just across the road from each other. Within spitting distance, you might say. :)


    What better way to keep an eye on each other?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    Ascendant wrote: »
    In fairness, Rees-Mogg and BJ are unlikely to lead an armed takeover of the Old Bailey and wait it out 'til civil war should anything other than Hard Brexit pass through.

    Maybe not, but they'll make endless references to "Dunkirk Spirit", the indomitable nature of the "British Bulldog", the inadvisability of "pushing Britain around", and other appeals ti military action couched in terms of "it's what the generation of 1939-1945 or 1914-1918 would have done.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,630 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    This will always favour Collins, primarily because Dev's judgement includes his subsequent influence on the development of Catholic Ireland.

    And why would Collins be any different? He said his prayers and went to Mass as well. Do you think the majority of the population from the 20s up until the 80s would have any time for anyone who was even remotely anti RCC?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    And why would Collins be any different? He said his prayers and went to Mass as well. Do you think the majority of the population from the 20s up until the 80s would have any time for anyone who was even remotely anti RCC?

    One would think as a mixed race person of colour from a single parent family Dev would be popular again.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭tabbey


    robp wrote: »
    One would think as a mixed race person of colour from a single parent family Dev would be popular again.

    Would he have been any different if he was known as Coll?

    Ned Coll v Mick Collins, it lacks gravitas or at least is less exotic,less colourful.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭BalcombeSt4


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Collins had the misfortune, or good fortune, depending on your point of view, to die young. We always remember fondly those who die young. De Valera lived to a ripe old age, and we had plenty of time to examine his flaws, weaknesses and errors. So it's maybe not a fair competition.

    Many European countries passed from democracy to authoritarianism or, worse, fascism in the 1930s. Ireland did not. It's not difficult to construct an imaginative but plausible alternative history in which Collins does not die, becomes a significant leader who continues to conflate military and political roles while capitalising on his considerable personal magnetism, and ends up becoming a strongman dictator in the 1930s.

    I think that is very plausable. For all intents and purposes Collins pretty much was Military Dictator of Southern Ireland.
    If he had lived would he have sent Volunteers (or possibly the regular army) to help Franco in the Spanish Civil War or to Russia to help the Whites in Russian civil War? Some of Collin succesors went to fight in Spain for Franco anyway & people who fought against him went to fight for the Spanish Republicans.
    Even tho he admired Connolly, a romantic ultra-Nationalist like Collins probably would have despised Marxism and I could see him taking a shine to Mussolini a person who dreamed of a mysty, glorious, Italian past who wanted to return his nation back to that prestigous glory, just like Collins did for Ireland.

    Even tho I hated Dev's economic policies like the disasterous trade-war with Britain, he did well to stir Ireland away from Fascism & Leninism, which Ireland could have easily fell into just like Austria, Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal,Greece, Poland, Lithuania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania & Russia all did during the 1920's & 30's. It really was a remarkable achievment to keep the Free State neutral during WWII.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,630 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    The Irish dabbled with Soviets and Fascism, the church (and business interests) had no stomach for the former.... the Blueshirts were a bit of a sideshow, esp with someone like O'Duffy in charge. With a more daring charismatic leader it could have made more headway.

    Ireland was better off staying out of WW2, inviting more trouble than it was worth.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The Irish dabbled with Soviets and Fascism, the church (and business interests) had no stomach for the former....
    To be fair, the church didn't have much stomach for the latter either. One of the strking points about the Blueshirt movement is how little clerical support it attracted, in marked distinction to similar movements in some continental countries.

    It might have been different if Ireland at the time had left-wing or anticlerical governments, or the possiblity of such looked realistic. In that scenario, church figures might have been tempted to lend support to O'Duffy's movement.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley




    I'm obviously at weak point in my personal emotion level, but listening to that lady speaking personally about Michael Collins made the tears come to me.


    My dad [a local man from Blackrock] was often his driver around the Cork City area. He had worshipped him all his life.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    Bonaparte is not common either in France compared to other statesmen/military. There is just one in Paris, the rue Bonaparte, and none of the quais or bridges are named for him, although several were built on his instructions. There is a Napoleon Bonaparte Bridge in Florida.


    That's because Bonaparte was Corsican, not French.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    robp wrote: »
    One would think as a mixed race person of colour from a single parent family Dev would be popular again.


    Explain, please? DeValera's father was Spanish, from the Basque region of Spain. Spaniards/ Basques are Western European Caucasians, not 'black' or even 'brown'.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    tac foley wrote: »
    Explain, please? DeValera's father was Spanish, from the Basque region of Spain. Spaniards/ Basques are Western European Caucasians, not 'black' or even 'brown'.

    The term is non literal. In the US any one speaking Spanish is considered Hispanic and non white. Naturally it is absurd but it is a the product of a race-obsessed land the US, which is heavily influencing Irish culture. Also some people say he was half Cuban.




  • Great speech from Dev broadcast on the wireless this afternoon - specifically his speech on WWII in 1939, on Ray D'Arcy's show today. Dev came on and first apologised to everybody that because he was so busy he had only notes to read from in front of him and not a prepared manuscript! There was something wonderfully indicative of Dev's political skill in that very humble introduction.

    de Valera speech on RTÉ Radio, 1939


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭tabbey


    tac foley wrote: »
    DeValera's father was Spanish, from the Basque region of Spain.

    First time I have heard that one.

    De Valera himself, his family and historians, have spent much time and effort over the last century trying to discover who his father was, without any success.

    If you have evidence, perhaps you could enlighten us.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    Éamon de Valera was born on 14 October 1882 in New York City, the son of Catherine Coll, who was originally from Bruree, County Limerick, and Juan Vivion de Valera, described on the birth certificate as a Spanish artist born in the Basque Country, Spain.[5][6] His parents were reportedly married on 18 September 1881 at St Patrick's Church in Jersey City, New Jersey, but archivists have not located any marriage certificate or any birth, baptismal, or death certificate information for anyone called Juan Vivion de Valera (nor for "de Valeros", an alternative spelling). On de Valera's original birth certificate, his name is given as George de Valero and his father is listed as Vivion de Valero. Although he was known as Edward de Valera before 1901, a fresh birth certificate was issued in 1910, in which his first name was officially changed to Edward and his father's surname given as "de Valera".[7][8] As a child, he was known as "Eddie" or "Eddy".[9]

    According to Coll, Juan Vivion died in 1885 leaving Coll and her child in poor circumstances.[10] Éamon was taken to Ireland by his uncle Ned at the age of two. Even when his mother married a new husband in the mid-1880s, he was not brought back to live with her, but was reared instead by his grandmother, Elizabeth Coll, her son Patrick and her daughter Hannie, in County Limerick. He was educated locally at Bruree National School, County Limerick and C.B.S. Charleville, County Cork. Aged sixteen, he won a scholarship. He was not successful in enrolling at two colleges in Limerick, but was accepted at Blackrock College, Dublin, at the instigation of his local curate.[11]

    and.............

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    RTE 1975 – Eamon De Valera is dead on YouTube RTÉ News (video). Retrieved 11 November 2011.
    "Eamon De Valera's grave vandalised". rte.is.
    "Vandal who hated De Valera poured paint over headstone". thetimes.com. 24 April 2018.
    Sunday Times, 31 October 2004 p3; RTÉ broadcast on 2 November 2004.
    Tom Garvin Preventing the future; why Ireland was so poor for so long. (Dublin 2004) passim; ISBN 0-7171-3771-6.
    The Earl of Longford and Thomas P. O'Neill, 1970, p. 338.
    "Wayback Machine" (PDF). 30 April 2003. Archived from the original (PDF) on 30 April 2003.
    Coogan, Tim Pat de Valera: Long Fellow, Long Shadow, ISBN 0-09-995860-0, ISBN 978-0-09-995860-4.
    "New book tries to reclaim Dev's legacy". Irish Independent. 15 October 2007.
    "Speech by the Taoiseach, Mr. Bertie Ahern, TD, at the Launch of Judging Dev, A Reassessment of the Life and Legacy of Éamon De Valera by Diarmaid Ferriter". Department of the Taoiseach. 14 October 2007.
    "TIME Magazine Cover: Eamon de Valera – Mar. 25, 1940". TIME. 25 March 1940. Retrieved 20 September 2011.
    "EIRE: Prime Minister of Freedom". TIME. 25 March 1940. Retrieved 20 September 2011.

    "Flann and me and his greatest story never told", The Irish Times, 12 July 2010 (subscription required)

    I'll let you sort that out, I'm off to bed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭tabbey


    We know that his mother was Kate Coll.

    There is no evidence that Vivion De Valera ever existed. Ms Coll had to give some details of the putative father when registering the birth, but it may be fiction.

    Successive waves of researchers have had no success in finding a record of his father, including a priest who was asked personally by Dev.

    PS - your bibliography seems to omit the two volumes on Dev by David McCullagh, described by Prof Eunan O'Halpin as the most extensively researched history of DeValera to date.
    The first volume "Rise-1882-1932" describes the many researchers attempts to verify Juan Vivion DeValera.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    Unless there was something VERY special about the late Mr deValera, there must have been a father there somewhere. The name of deValera is not one that instantly falls to mind when thinking about pututive surnames, though.


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