FG to just do nothing for the next 5 years.

Yurt2 · 12-02-2020 3:48pm

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Reading between the lines here, and I might be completely wrong, might you prefer an *effective* FF/FG government over a SF led government?

I don't believe for a second that a FF/FG government will effectively tackle any of the maladays in housing for instance, which, if you're a homeowner or not is going to turn into a toxic fire dump of social problems on current trends.

If you're interested, my actual voting preferences is as follows:

1. Green 2. SD 3. SF 4. Labour

My preference didn't even reach SF in my constituency. But, out of the three big boys SF look most likely to get serious about housing and really start addressing things. That chaps the a*s of FG types that a lot of people feel that way.

The thumbing of their noses 'nah nah nah, you can't do anything commies' is ungracious and confirmed my predjudices against the party's culture and policies generally. I actually think they're secretly more scared that SF might make a success of things rather than failure.

I'm very glad they're taking themselves out of the running truth be told. They need a time out and some humility.

Plumbthedepths · 12-02-2020 3:52pm

Mortelaro wrote: »

They negotiated a programme for government with FF that didn't include that
FF said NO to it
Minority Parties that form governments haven't told lies when their manifesto isnt fully implemented
Only parties than get majorities can be accused of that
You should know that

Funny when MM accused Leo (during the PT debate) of breaking the USC promise, Leo never responded with what you are claiming or did Leo forget?. Telling a porkie are we?

super_furry · 12-02-2020 3:52pm

This is just a weird thread. Imagine the outrage if Fine Gael has come out and said that they want to create a new government, it'd be off the charts.

Personally I see Sinn Fein trying to get their excuses in early here. They've found themselves in a very tricky position whereby they're declaring winners of the election but if they go into government they have to try to implement a manifesto that was never written to be implemented. They did better than their wildest dreams and now realise that they simply can't live up to all their promises.

Plus there's the fact that they know that if there's a second election, they'll be able to run 80 candidates, pick up even more seats and won't need Fianna Fail at all.

So what they have to try and do now is look like they want to form a government without wanting to form one and ensure that when talks break down, they come out it looking clean. It's a very tricky road to walk.

Yurt2 · 12-02-2020 3:53pm

:pac:

Mortelaro wrote: »

They are not running anywhere,they want to be the official opposition which is what the electorate have decided
They lost the election and are actually implementing a promise not to go into government with Sinn Féin and you are criticising this?
Leo by the way got himself elected in his own constituency as did 34 other Fine Gael candidates which despite your apparent hatrid of them means they have rights as do their voters,very considerable rights.

Amazing that a party that could still form part of a government are declaring themselves losers.

I'd agree with you that FG voters have rights, and if I were a FG voter I'd be asking questions why FG aren't busting a gut trying to put together a government with FF to give voice to that vote.

That to me is going on the run.

Ush1 · 12-02-2020 3:54pm

Yurt! wrote: »

:pac:

Amazing that a party that could still form part of a government are declaring themselves losers.

I'd agree with you that FG voters have rights, and if I were a FG voter I'd be asking questions why FG aren't busting a gut trying to put together a government with FF to give voice to that vote.

That to me is going on the run.

For some reason it doesn't seem like you find it funny at all.

jimgoose · 12-02-2020 3:55pm

Yurt! wrote: »

...if I were a FG voter I'd be asking questions why FG aren't busting a gut trying to put together a government with FF to give voice to that vote...

Because that would be a tactically piss-poor manoeuvre, as I set out above.

omega man · 12-02-2020 3:57pm

Trizo wrote: »

This is hilarious , all the SF supporters on here who have been ranting and raving about FG and FF demanding change and when they get it, they are panicking about who’s going to run the country. They almost seem to be demanding that FG and FF go back into government despite demanding change -You actually couldn’t make this up :rolleyes:

Its like the kids have kicked the parents out of the house and now because they don’t have a job cant pay the bills , don’t know how to operate the washing machine , the dishes are going to pile up and the next door neighbour is calling around at 5 to discuss a boundary wall issue. Poor pets are having a meltdown, and worst of all there’s nobody to read them a bedtime story where it ends happily ever after.

Guys you got what you wanted , SF have the popular vote and just about the most seats (when you consider the Ceann Comhairle is FF) its up to them to form the government , FG and FF were roundly rejected by the electorate for their failings, they have no mandate. People have voted for change so let’s get on with it, form the government and start governing …

If SF, then decide actually you know what I preferred the comfortable seats on the other side of the Dail well then it’ll be up to FF and to a lesser extent FG to try and put something together until that time the ball is firmly in MLM’s hands. It’ll be some spoof though not to govern after the election they have had.

People on this thread still going on like the election hasn’t happened, going over old issues and grievances - the votes have been counted guys move on …..

Absolute nail on the head.

JohnnyFlash · 12-02-2020 3:58pm

jimgoose wrote: »

If McDonald had any real political acumen she'd stay away from government and likely as not walk into a sweeping majority at the next election. Varadkar is doing the only politically astute thing he can do in the circumstances, which is let SF get on with whatever hash-up they might be able to cobble together, let it come down in a heap soon enough, and thus with any luck put that whole ridiculous shambles to bed for at least ten years.

Deep down, Jim, I’d imagine plenty of good SF men and women wouldn’t like the idea of a SF majority or even a coalition with the AAA/PBP sorts.

Lot of people are just creatures of protest and like to remain that way. It’s intellectually and emotionally easy, and you always get to take the high moral ground.

James Brown · 12-02-2020 3:59pm

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Reading between the lines here, and I might be completely wrong, might you prefer an *effective* FF/FG government over a SF led government?

Wouldn't we all prefer an effective, value for money accountable government, regardless of the party? I know I would.
The sad thing is the FF/FG'ers would be sick to their stomachs if SF and co. made a successful go of it.

McMurphy · 12-02-2020 4:00pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Why did you start at 2011 and not 2002? FG are largely unchanged since 2002. Careful with your stats.

If I had of went back to 2002, do you think it would bolster your arguement or mine?

2002

FF - 77 seats.
FG - 54 seats.
SF - 5 seats.

2020

FF - 38 seats (37 won, + CC)
FG - 35 seats.
SF - 37 seats.

Idbatterim · 12-02-2020 4:01pm

super_furry wrote: »

This is just a weird thread. Imagine the outrage if Fine Gael has come out and said that they want to create a new government, it'd be off the charts.

Personally I see Sinn Fein trying to get their excuses in early here. They've found themselves in a very tricky position whereby they're declaring winners of the election but if they go into government they have to try to implement a manifesto that was never written to be implemented. They did better than their wildest dreams and now realise that they simply can't live up to all their promises.

Plus there's the fact that they know that if there's a second election, they'll be able to run 80 candidates, pick up even more seats and won't need Fianna Fail at all.

So what they have to try and do now is look like they want to form a government without wanting to form one and ensure that when talks break down, they come out it looking clean. It's a very tricky road to walk.

Are you serious?! they would win a few more seats, thats it! FF / FG and greens form a government or its FF, SF and possibly the greens... thats it, those are the options... another election doesnt change any of the fundamentals! SF get a majorority, put that in the conspiracy theory forum or comedy forum!

osarusan · 12-02-2020 4:04pm

FG have stepped back and that gives them the chance to prod and poke and goad SF (and FF maybe) into what would probably be a disastrous government, or else it gives FG ammo to criticise them for not having the balls to go into government.

Everybody wants to be on the opposition benches for this one really, FG are the first to claim it. SF can't do that given the result and their apparent desire to be in government.

Perfectly sensible politics. Also the only thing FG could really do.

James Brown · 12-02-2020 4:05pm

Mortelaro wrote: »

They negotiated a programme for government with FF that didn't include that
FF said NO to it
Minority Parties that form governments haven't told lies when their manifesto isnt fully implemented
Only parties than get majorities can be accused of that
You should know that

We've covered this you and I.
MM said he knew they were telling lies and it was FG decided that not a fight with FF.

Nobody can show any policies FG really wanted to implement only to be scuttled by Labour or Fianna Fail.

Keyzer · 12-02-2020 4:06pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

Keyzer wrote: »

Idbatterim wrote: »

hang on a minute, this old chestnut! the marginal rate is 50%, I couldnt care less whether it is 1% income tax and 49% tooth fairy tax! should I? you havent go a clue, please check that income tax calculator link I posted. I will be sure to tell my employees, on your behalf, that they are wrong to turn down extra hours, because it is only 40% that will be thieved from them, not 50%...

the god knows how many people who turned down extra hours over the years, must all be wrong... When you lose fifty percent of salary and then might have to pay extra childcare etc, most wont bother and they are right!

I've checked the income tax calculator based on a salary of 100K (way above the numbers you're talking about), see below:

Annual salary (before pension contributions) - €100,000

Tax payable:
€35,300 @ 20% = €7,060 / €64,700 @ 40% = €25,880
PRSI = €4,000
USC = €4,871

Total deductions = €38,511

That's 38.5% tax...

Now, please explain to me how this person is paying 50% tax.

super_furry · 12-02-2020 4:09pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

Are you serious?! they would win a few more seats, thats it! FF / FG and greens form a government or its FF, SF and possibly the greens... thats it, those are the options... another election doesnt change any of the fundamentals! SF get a majorority, put that in the conspiracy theory forum or comedy forum!

They left 11 seats behind them as it currently stands. That's 48 seats they could and should have had this election.

https://extra.ie/2020/02/09/news/politics/the-11-seats-sinn-fein-left-behind-at-election-2020

Get the Greens, Labour and Soc Dems on board that puts that grouping on 72 - pick up a few independents and/or PBP and they're there.

And that's without factoring in an improvement in numbers in a subsequent election, which lets face it, they'd be foolish not to get. Present a story whereby the old duo of FF and FG are trying to block the 'change' that the people want, with FF taking most of that stick and it's not hard to see further loses for them and gains for the left block.

SF are experts at this kind of thing, they've been at it for decades up the North. They're not going to go into government now, they're going to make sure that it's present as FF/FG's fault as to why there has to be a second election and they're going to clean up.

Tacitus Kilgore · 12-02-2020 4:09pm

Keyzer wrote: »

Idbatterim wrote: »

Keyzer wrote: »

I've checked the income tax calculator based on a salary of 100K (way above the numbers you're talking about), see below:

Annual salary (before pension contributions) - €100,000

Tax payable:
€35,300 @ 20% = €7,060 / €64,700 @ 40% = €25,880
PRSI = €4,000
USC = €4,871

Total deductions = €38,511

That's 38.5% tax...

Now, please explain to me how this person is paying 50% tax.

They aren't.

This poster & I discussed this the other day too - their conclusion was that the cost of living is higher in Dublin - hence FIFTY.

I presume the next move is that people pay VAT, and motor tax, and that counts as income tax.

quokula · 12-02-2020 4:11pm

super_furry wrote: »

So what they have to try and do now is look like they want to form a government without wanting to form one and ensure that when talks break down, they come out it looking clean. It's a very tricky road to walk.

It's a tricky walk but if there's one thing SF is good at, and very experienced at, it's not turning up to govern and putting the blame on others.

tritium · 12-02-2020 4:13pm

Yurt! wrote: »

FG involved in government is the last thing this country needs, it's just amusing watching them run from it when it's still within their grasp.

So you are just having a whinge

Lovely, good luck to you

JohnnyFlash · 12-02-2020 4:14pm

FG in Government - endless complaining.

FG not going to be in Government - endless complaining.

Living rent free inside the head of lots of lads (always lads).

Yurt2 · 12-02-2020 4:14pm

tritium wrote: »

So you are just having a whinge

Lovely, good luck to you

And you? What are you at? Doing the lord's work here I suppose

Fieldsman · 12-02-2020 4:15pm

If someone said FG sat on their hands for the last 9 years how come our economy is the envy of every other country in Europe and our unemployment went from 15% down to less than 5

boetstark · 12-02-2020 4:15pm

Yurt! wrote: »

You don't need to run a budget surplus to build infrastructure or invest once you're creditworthy and service your debt. We were back on the markets a long time ago.

If he's Junior Cert, you've just failed your Leaving.

OK Einstein, cuts in areas of public spending or borrow more on the markets for "investment in infrastructure" Which is it

Yurt2 · 12-02-2020 4:17pm

boetstark wrote: »

OK Einstein, cuts in areas of public spending or borrow more on the markets for "investment in infrastructure" Which is it

Because it's a binary choice isn't it. All governments do both at various stages of their budget cycle. Cuts in line items when they can be made, and the most efficiently calibrated mix between taxation and borrowing depending on market conditions.

You'll see all of these things at play in all the party manifestos.

I know, I'm sorry I didn't jump into your ever so clever arguement you wanted to have.

bennyl10 · 12-02-2020 4:20pm

So exactly what SF have done for the past 20 years? seemed to work pretty well for them in the end

Idbatterim · 12-02-2020 4:20pm

bennyl10 wrote: »

So exactly what SF have done for the past 20 years? seemed to work pretty well for them in the end

they have done nothing so far, the same as FG and varadkar over the last nine years...

Keyzer · 12-02-2020 4:24pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

they have done nothing so far, the same as FG and varadkar over the last nine years...

Can you go back to my post at 15:06 and explain how my calculations are incorrect and people are indeed paying 50% tax?

I'm dying to know.

jimgoose · 12-02-2020 4:27pm

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Deep down, Jim, I’d imagine plenty of good SF men and women wouldn’t like the idea of a SF majority or even a coalition with the AAA/PBP sorts.

Lot of people are just creatures of protest and like to remain that way. It’s intellectually and emotionally easy, and you always get to take the high moral ground.

Ah yes, something like Nakamura-ryū Battōjutsu - "not killing others; not being killed by others". That'll make a refreshing change. :pac:

jrosen · 12-02-2020 4:28pm

I think Ireland is in a much better place than 9 years ago. I think its incorrect to say FG played no role in that and have done nothing.
People have been on trollies since the 80's, housing lists as long as 10 years in SDCC in the late 90's. So this isn't new.

It will also be funny when the new GOVN start taking credit for any new builds that come on line in the next 2 years knowing full well planning and development for those happened well before they were in govn

road_high · 12-02-2020 4:28pm

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

It’s gas. Posters like the OP vote for SF and then complain that FG won’t be in power.

SF voters don’t seem at all happy that SF will be in government.

It’s very satisfying to see SF and co have borderline meltdowns about FG losing an election and going into opposition as they’ve done for decades.
Where’s the energy and drive to solve all the problems they’ve been droning on about for years? You’d almost think they don’t believe their own manifestos?

rob316 · 12-02-2020 4:34pm

Fieldsman wrote: »

If someone said FG sat on their hands for the last 9 years how come our economy is the envy of every other country in Europe and our unemployment went from 15% down to less than 5

Because we have the most attractive corporation rate in Europe.

Its that simple, our GDP isn't a true reflection of the economy.

If we ever were forced to bring our CT rate in line with other countries it would make the last recession look like a picnic.

FG to just do nothing for the next 5 years.

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