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The WHO wants to prevent all women of "child-bearing age" from drinking alcohol

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    #32
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    While I appreciate that as health professionals they have a duty to make recommendations that aim for optimal health you have to question the wisdom of making statements which are just going to be treated with derision. Like suggestions last November that we could "delay Xmas and hold it in June or something", immediately when someone has said it, their reliability as an advisor is damaged. Because the absurdity of the statement should be so obvious that they just wouldn't say it at all.

    So when the WHO says that women of childbearing age (i.e. every woman between 14 and 50) should avoid drinking, it damages their credibility as health advisors. Not because it's bad health advice, but because it's absurd to think that by saying, it will be at all effective. Instead it makes the WHO look like they're in a fantasy world, a bunch of anti-alcohol cranks.


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    #33
    Confused11811
    Registered Users Posts: 691 ✭✭✭Confused11811


    That's the designated driver issue sorted in my household.


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    #34
    appledrop
    Registered Users Posts: 5,789 ✭✭✭appledrop


    Confused11811 wrote: »
    That's the designated driver issue sorted in my household.

    Yep and depending on your age could be for next 20 years!


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    #35
    jim o doom
    Registered Users Posts: 1,474 ✭✭✭jim o doom


    Plenty of women of "child bearing age" never intend to, and in fact succeed in never having children.

    Those women face other people (who do want kids), or older folks patronisingly going "you'll change your mind", or "one day you'll want one".. when the truth could not be further.

    Now we have the WHO suggesting that any woman of child bearing age (regardless of their plans regarding children) should be "prevented" from drinking alcohol.

    My wife and I are never having kids, we don't want them. Everyone knows the negatives of alcohol, it's not new news, we've all known it for a long time.

    The WHO advice can get f*cked. Women can drink what they want, when they want and so can men.


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    #36
    zom
    Registered Users Posts: 1,908 ✭✭✭zom


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    So your body, your choices, but big effects for others.
    Either drinking and smoking is absolutely legal during pregnancy and all together with a right to abortion it allows women to do whatever they want to their unborn child. Up until born it has no rights (up until mother comes to hospital for labor to be precise).


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    #37
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,942 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Yeah it's completely over the top reaction to normal, sensible advice which people are completely free to ignore.
    Page 17, Para 2 of the report
    "Appropriate attention should be given to prevention of the initiation of drinking among children and adolescents, prevention of drinking among pregnant women and women of childbearing age, and protection of people from pressures to drink, especially in societies with high levels of alcohol consumption where heavy drinkers are encouraged to drink even more".

    We try to "prevent" people from doing all sorts of things like getting fat or being unfit, by giving them the information to make informed decisions. But it remains legal to be overweight and unfit. The more information people have the more they can make informed decisions and the better off they are.

    If drinking negatively affects getting pregnant then people should have that information. They can make decisions based on that information. Simple stuff. No need for outrage.


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    #38
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,656 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    seamus wrote: »
    So when the WHO says that women of childbearing age (i.e. every woman between 14 and 50) should avoid drinking, it damages their credibility as health advisors. Not because it's bad health advice, but because it's absurd to think that by saying, it will be at all effective. Instead it makes the WHO look like they're in a fantasy world, a bunch of anti-alcohol cranks.


    But that’s why they include a whole boatload of proposals aimed at tackling the issue of abuse of alcohol in societies where alcohol abuse is a social issue. They’re not an organisation solely concerned with the health and well-being of individuals, but rather the health and well-being of societies as a whole. They may still be perceived as a bunch of anti-alcohol cranks though by people who value their individual freedom over the common good of society.

    jim o doom wrote: »
    The WHO advice can get f*cked. Women can drink what they want, when they want and so can men.


    Notwithstanding the fact that the WHO doesn’t have the luxury of your individual perspective, they aren’t telling anyone they can’t drink alcohol whenever they want. What they are doing is what they’ve always done as an organisation which is to issue advice on health policies as it pertains to societies as a whole, the clue is in the name of the organisation. To that effect, they are advising policy and decision-makers about campaigning successfully to reduce the influence of alcohol in society. There was a particular focus on women, granted, but they didn’t solely focus on women, and they appear to have ignored the impact of fathers alcohol consumption on their children -


    Can a Father's Alcohol Consumption Affect His Baby?


    It would appear they’re going with the idea that rather than trying to define any “safe level” of alcohol consumption, they’re going for the idea of discouraging alcohol consumption altogether. There are certainly arguments can be made for the benefits of alcohol consumption, but they must be weighed against the negatives of alcohol consumption, and it would be difficult to argue that the benefits of alcohol consumption in society actually do outweigh the negative consequences of alcohol consumption in society.

    I’ll stick with my individual freedoms though all the same :p


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    #39
    Greyfox
    Registered Users Posts: 3,720 ✭✭✭Greyfox


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Yeah it's completely over the top reaction to normal, sensible advice which people are completely free to ignore.

    Their is nothing sensible about saying a non pregnant women shouldnt drink alcohol. The WHO have a responsibility to give good advice so they should be called out if they give braindead and insulting advice that's divorced from reality.


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    #40
    jim o doom
    Registered Users Posts: 1,474 ✭✭✭jim o doom


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Notwithstanding the fact that the WHO doesn’t have the luxury of your individual perspective, they aren’t telling anyone they can’t drink alcohol whenever they want. What they are doing is what they’ve always done as an organisation which is to issue advice on health policies as it pertains to societies as a whole, the clue is in the name of the organisation.

    The thing is, my perspective is not all that unique. There are many women who either cant have or who simply dont want to have children and who never do. honestly, more power to them, there are far too many humans destroying the planet.

    Their advice is that any woman of childbearing age abstain from alcohol, regardless of her ability or wishes regarding future kids.

    It's completely patronising, lacking in any degree of nuance, and like I said before, it can go get f#cked. So can anyone in the organisation who thought publishing this sort of massive generalisation was a good idea.

    Now I dont actually believe this, but I do briefly muse on the admittedly conspiracy theory sounding thought.. I wonder is there a drive in China against alcohol or women of child bearing drinking alcohol.


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    #41
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,942 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Greyfox wrote: »
    Their is nothing sensible about saying a non pregnant women shouldnt drink alcohol. The WHO have a responsibility to give good advice so they should be called out if they give braindead and insulting advice that's divorced from reality.

    Depends how they plan to go about it. If they planned do it through an outright ban, then your outrage would be justified. If they plan to do it through simply saying, "drinking can damage your fertility", then grand.

    Since its almost certainly the latter, then there's absolutely nothing to get worked up about. Wouldn't you agree?


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    #42
    LeakyLime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 83 ✭✭LeakyLime


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Depends how they plan to go about it. If they planned do it through an outright ban, then your outrage would be justified. If they plan to do it through simply saying, "drinking can damage your fertility", then grand.

    Since its almost certainly the latter, then there's absolutely nothing to get worked up about. Wouldn't you agree?

    No it's nothing to do with the fertility. The advice relates to women of child bearing age because the may become pregnant and it may harm your unborn child.

    Alcohol also affects sperm count and male fertility, but fertility is not the issue here.


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    #43
    jim o doom
    Registered Users Posts: 1,474 ✭✭✭jim o doom


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    If they plan to do it through simply saying, "drinking can damage your fertility"

    If that is the intended message, then it should be the published message.. but it isnt.


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    #44
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,942 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    LeakyLime wrote: »
    No it's nothing to do with the fertility. The advice relates to women of child bearing age because the may become pregnant and it may harm your unborn child.

    Alcohol also affects sperm count and male fertility, but fertility is not the issue here.

    Still depends on how they plan to do it. Ban = bad, information = good.

    But where does it say "the advice relates to women of child bearing age because the may become pregnant and it may harm your unborn child"?


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    #45
    LeakyLime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 83 ✭✭LeakyLime


    Basically all females from 12 - 50 should abstain from drinking in case they become pregnant.

    Bring on the menopause!


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    #46
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,942 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    jim o doom wrote: »
    If that is the intended message, then it should be the published message.. but it isnt.

    They didn't publish the intended message. What do you thin the intended message is?


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    #47
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,942 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    LeakyLime wrote: »
    Basically all females from 12 - 50 should abstain from drinking in case they become pregnant.

    Bring on the menopause!

    Where does it say they shouldn't drink in case they become pregnant?


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    #48
    Cordell
    Registered Users Posts: 5,783 ✭✭✭Cordell


    For quite a lot of women alcohol is the only way they'll get to bear any child. But I can see the WHO point here, they should abstain and leave it all for the man.

    In any case, WHO credibility is stooping to UN levels, and that's not an easy thing to do in a year's time.


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    #49
    Greyfox
    Registered Users Posts: 3,720 ✭✭✭Greyfox


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Since its almost certainly the latter, then there's absolutely nothing to get worked up about. Wouldn't you agree?

    I dont agree. Theirs a huge difference between shouldn't drink and saying drinking can effect fertility


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    #50
    jim o doom
    Registered Users Posts: 1,474 ✭✭✭jim o doom


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    They didn't publish the intended message. What do you thin the intended message is?

    I think the intended message is that women should do as they're told and not drink if they are of child bearing age.


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    #51
    Porklife
    Registered Users Posts: 1,681 ✭✭✭Porklife


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    Drinking sensibly is less harmful than drinking insensiblly. But it's not as good as not drinking.

    There is no safe level of alcohol in pregnancy.

    And it is society's issue, because society picks up up enormous costs when a kid is born with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. Even low birthweight pushes up the health system costs. And the kid feels the effects for its entire life.

    So your body, your choices, but big effects for others.

    But I'm not talking about pregnant women, im talking about women of child bearing age who are not pregnant.
    Obviously i don't advocate pregnant women drinking regardless of age.
    So your point is moot and irrelevant.


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    #52
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,942 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Greyfox wrote: »
    I dont agree. Theirs a huge difference between shouldn't drink and saying drinking can effect fertility

    Absolutely no difference as long as all they plan to do is inform them of the risks. If they planned to enforce a ban then there would be a difference.

    Beyond that it's just an opportunity for people who want to get cross about things, to get cross about something.

    I wonder if it has anything to do with the victimhood complex some posters have fostered around the pubs being shut. Maybe they're thinking, "if they inform women of the risks to their health, then the might start a similar campaign to inform men of the risks to us". I just can't see any reason to be cross about this.


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    #53
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,942 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    jim o doom wrote: »
    I think the intended message is that women should do as they're told and not drink if they are of child bearing age.

    So? And when you see medical advice to not be overweight, or be fit, how does it affect you? Do you consider yourself injured by the experience?


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    #54
    iffandonlyif
    Registered Users Posts: 556 ✭✭✭iffandonlyif


    The article repeatedly inserts the word prevent after a partial quote, without any evidence that that is what the WHO intends.


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    #55
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,656 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    jim o doom wrote: »
    The thing is, my perspective is not all that unique. There are many women who either cant have or who simply dont want to have children and who never do. honestly, more power to them, there are far too many humans destroying the planet.

    Their advice is that any woman of childbearing age abstain from alcohol, regardless of her ability or wishes regarding future kids.

    It's completely patronising, lacking in any degree of nuance, and like I said before, it can go get f#cked. So can anyone in the organisation who thought publishing this sort of massive generalisation was a good idea.

    Now I dont actually believe this, but I do briefly muse on the admittedly conspiracy theory sounding thought.. I wonder is there a drive in China against alcohol or women of child bearing drinking alcohol.


    It lacks nuance for sure, because it was never intended to be specifically aimed at individuals who are choosing to take what was written out of context rather than understanding the context in which it was written.

    They do give plenty of advice too about abstaining from having children or prevention of unwanted pregnancies and so on if that’s your bag, but it’s more in the context of carbon footprinting, adopting a vegan lifestyle and all the rest of it, if one is on a mission to save humans from themselves with the idea that it’s better for the environment. I don’t tend to take their declarations on those fronts too seriously either, even though the scientific evidence behind their declarations is sound, as it is in this case again where they advise that women and children and people generally should be prevented from being introduced to alcohol from an early age and throughout their lives that message should be reinforced in society.

    Don’t know anything about China really, other than their one-child policy turned out to be a bit of a disaster, not sure about how beneficial it was for the environment in any case tbh.


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    #56
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,942 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    iffandonlyif wrote: »
    The article repeatedly inserts the word prevent after a partial quote, without any evidence that that is what the WHO intends.

    This is the wording copied from the report.
    Page 17, Para 2 of the report
    "Appropriate attention should be given to prevention of the initiation of drinking among children and adolescents, prevention of drinking among pregnant women and women of childbearing age, and protection of people from pressures to drink, especially in societies with high levels of alcohol consumption where heavy drinkers are encouraged to drink even more".

    Not sure what "appropriate attention" would amount to. If it's an information campaign, that's grand.


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    #57
    BrianD3
    Registered Users Posts: 8,277 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    So? And when you see medical advice to not be overweight, or be fit, how does it affect you? Do you consider yourself injured by the experience?
    The comparison with obesity is a poor one. If you want to go down that road, a better comparison would be if the WHO stated that "appropriate attention should be given to the prevention of consumption of high calorie foods" and apply that to...everyone. Would you support this?

    The wording of this is all wrong, "prevention" and "women of child bearing age". The latter should set off alarm bells as it means that what follows will be an assumption that pregnancy will happen.

    Certain drugs such ibuprofen are not recommended during pregnancy. You can imagine the uproar if a woman went into a pharmacy looking for it and the following happened

    Woman: I have a sore back, I'd like some ibuprofen
    Pharmacist: What age are you
    Woman: 25
    Pharmacist: You're of child bearing age, ibuprofen is not recommend for pregnant women. I'll give you paracetamol instead.
    Woman: But I'm not pregnant
    Pharmacist: Doesn't matter, you might get pregnant.


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    #58
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,942 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    BrianD3 wrote: »
    The comparison with obesity is a poor one. If you want to go down that road, a better comparison would be if the WHO stated that "appropriate attention should be given to the prevention of consumption of high calorie foods" and apply that to...everyone. Would you support this?

    The wording of this is all wrong, "prevention" and "women of child bearing age". The latter should set off alarm bells as it means that what follows will be an assumption that pregnancy will happen.

    ...

    Would I support that? If they were going to inform people of the risks of eating high calorie foods (in excess), then I'd be fine with it. I wouldn't get excited about it either way.

    I don't think your analogy is great because there's nothing wrong with eating high calorie foods up to your expenditure of calories. Do you think it's a good analogy?

    You didn't answer my question which was whether you would feel injured by seeing information aimed to prevent people being overweight or prevent people being unfit. Would you have a problem with them trying to prevent those things through information?


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    #59
    Porklife
    Registered Users Posts: 1,681 ✭✭✭Porklife


    Hadron Collider wrote: »
    There are also millions of women whose drinking during pregnancy led to miscarriage, stillbirth, or a range of lifelong physical, behavioral, and intellectual disabilities inflicted on their children.



    Why can't a 25-year-old pregnant woman act responsibly and lay off the bottle for 9 months for the sake of her child?

    Do you even know what the article is about? Who said anything about a 25 year old pregnant woman? Im talking about a 25 year old woman who isn't pregnant, she's just of child bearing age. She may not even want children, she may simply want a nice cold beer!

    Pregnant women obviously shouldn't drink alcohol but that's not what this is about.


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    #60
    Greyfox
    Registered Users Posts: 3,720 ✭✭✭Greyfox


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Absolutely no difference as long as all they plan to do is inform them of the risks.

    People know the risks and its already been established that drinking in moderation is ok as long as you have a balanced diet.
    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    So? And when you see medical advice to not be overweight, or be fit, how does it affect you? Do you consider yourself injured by the experience?

    Thats fine as this advice is not saying you shouldn't eat junk food. Now if people wanted to prevent people from eating junk food rather than cutting down then i'd be annoyed


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    #61
    maudgonner
    Registered Users Posts: 5,455 ✭✭✭maudgonner


    Think of the poor teenagers - now instead of trying to look 18 on their fake IDs they'll have to look 51 :eek:




    As for the WHO report, I'm barely surprised by it, let alone outraged. It's not that long ago that a friend of mine had difficulty getting her doctor to prescribe her the pill because she was a young woman of prime child-bearing years and sure she might meet someone soon and decide to settle down.


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