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Buona Fortuna wrote: »Hummm. I used to accompany police in UK on raids and searches in the 90s and early 2000s. Anything like that was found was just flushed down the pan in front of the suspect.
Their answer was that if it went to court the person would mostly get a conditional discharge.steddyeddy wrote: »Yep like the police over here (London) do.
This is not the UK. Gardaí in Ireland can't even give an adult caution for posession, never mind a fine. Most people do get probation, i.e. no conviction, for the offence in court, assuming they have a relatively clean record. For those that don't, there is the drugs court, which is basically like an AA meeting where your charges get struck out as long as you stay off the drugs. In the very unlikely eventuality you get jail time, you will be unlucky to do more than a few days. In fact the only way you can get a conviction for simple possession is to be a very prolific criminal or not play ball with the court.Gardai have discretion. I know people caught with small amounts of cannabis and nothing happened. I know people caught with a small amount and went to court. So they already do choose. Did you hear about the gardai and the strippers recently?
Waste of time and criminalising youth.
Basically, they threaten you, your career and any future travel plans. Disgusting IMOMy name is URL wrote: »Are you suggesting that gardai shouldn't be allowed to exercise any discretion?
That's interesting, coming from a GardaIt's called excercising discretion, using your own judgement in a given scenario as opposed to merely crossing the X's and O's.
People seem to be confused as to what discretion is. It's not for a Garda to decide what laws should be enforced, it's to decide wether a specific individual should be given the benefit of the doubt or an informal caution. And up until recently it was used for simple possession in many cases. Unfortunately due to the publics demand for accountability within the force you will see discretion used less frequently, especially with regard to drug offences. Can you imagine the **** creek you'd been in if you had taken a joint off a fella and tossed it only for him to go to GSOC and complain you took his property without logging it or prosecuting him. This has happened more than once. I can tell you that from personal experience.Well they already do that. What we suggest is that they might prioritise resources, in terms of their time and the courts time, in relation to the scale of the offence committed.
They do. Simple possession cases take very little time and are often dealt with by court presenters up until a hearing.The Gardai didn't seem so keen to enforce the laws on penalty points and a few of those drivers caught went on to kill people on our roads after their points were quashed by their Garda mates.
And when a Garda got caught growing 77 cannibis plants up in Dundalk back in 2011 he didn't receive the 10 year mandatory prison sentence for possession of that amount, he got off scot free surprise,surprise while people caught with far less serve their time.
You can't have it both ways, the law should apply equally to all citizens but in Ireland clearly it does not. It's part of the reason why people have lost respect for the Gardai.
So you are an advocate of what happened with penalty points? I mean you can't have it both ways. You seem to think it was bad for penalty points but the way to go for drugs.0 -
Little CuChulainn wrote: »This is not the UK. Gardaí in Ireland can't even give an adult caution for posession, never mind a fine. Most people do get probation, i.e. no conviction, for the offence in court, assuming they have a relatively clean record. For those that don't, there is the drugs court, which is basically like an AA meeting where your charges get struck out as long as you stay off the drugs. In the very unlikely eventuality you get jail time, you will be unlucky to do more than a few days. In fact the only way you can get a conviction for simple possession is to be a very prolific criminal or not play ball with the court..
....which for grass is still a waste of time, effort and resources. Driving under the influence excepted.Little CuChulainn wrote: »They do. Simple possession cases take very little time and are often dealt with by court presenters up until a hearing..
As above. You're in the unenviable position of defending the undefendable here. Fair enough the gardai didn't write the law, but somebody has to use their head, and in this case it would be best done by the people with the blue cap on theirs.0 -
So Guards post a pic which is one in a series of pics, and every champion of the must maligned harmless drug sold by misunderstood upstanding members of our community go into meltdown. Heads up people. You don't get to choose which laws are enforced and which are not. You break the law, you run the risk of being punished for it, very simple really.0
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....which for grass is still a waste of time, effort and resources. Driving under the influence excepted.
As above. You're in the unenviable position of defending the undefendable here. Fair enough the gardai didn't write the law, but somebody has to use their head, and in this case it would be best done by the people with the blue cap on theirs.
So again I ask, are you suggesting that the Gardaí should be able to choose which laws to enforce? If the GRA came out tomorrow and said "Our members have decided that financial fraud under €5000 is too costly to investigate and so we have decided not to pursue such investigations" you'd be ok with that because they are saving money and using their heads. Or is it only crimes that affect your own morals that you think they should ignore? I mean, think about what you are saying. You're suggesting the Gardaí should be able to completely ignore a law that has been passed and enforce their own idea of what the law should be. The correct place to do something about the law is the Dáil.0 -
Little CuChulainn wrote: »So again I ask, are you suggesting that the Gardaí should be able to choose which laws to enforce?
In all seriousness and without wishing to bash the AGS in anyway, I thought that they already did?0 -
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Little CuChulainn wrote: »So again I ask, are you suggesting that the Gardaí should be able to choose which laws to enforce? If the GRA came out tomorrow and said "Our members have decided that financial fraud under €5000 is too costly to investigate and so we have decided not to pursue such investigations" you'd be ok with that because they are saving money and using their heads. Or is it only crimes that affect your own morals that you think they should ignore? I mean, think about what you are saying. You're suggesting the Gardaí should be able to completely ignore a law that has been passed and enforce their own idea of what the law should be. The correct place to do something about the law is the Dáil.
The difference is that most people do not commit fraud to the tune of 5k. When you have 50% of students commiting a "crime"l by using cannabis and a quarter of the adult population committing the same crime as well as that "crime" being acceptable in society and the media, it should be a no brainer. It is a massive waste of time.
You said that it doesnt take up much Garda time for simple possession. I wouldnt class 60,000 hours per year as not much time wasted and 160,000 irish people with convictions for personal use in the last 10 years.
Other police forces have stepped up and done something about it. Claiming that your hands are tied is a get out of jail card IMO.
When politicians make jokes about partaking in a bit of weed when younger and not inhaling, you know it is a joke. If homosexuality was illegal right now and you caught two lads at it, would you arrest them?
What about if you caught a girl with some condoms and they were illegal?
I bet you would not.
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/160000-convicted-on-possession-of-small-amount-of-drugs-in-past-decade-688230.html
http://www.newstalk.com/A-quarter-of-Irish-adults-have-used-cannabis
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/half-of-students-have-used-cannabis-339579.html
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/decriminalisation-proposals-would-free-up-to-60000-garda-hours-363341.html[/url
Also, do the Gardai not do work to rule as a protest sometimes. Not doing people for tax etc. Is that not ignoring laws created by the executive?0 -
I doubt you'll find any police force in a democratic country that has "stepped up" and decided to ignore the laws of the land without relevant legislation instructing them to do so being enacted by the government. According to this thread, everyone from new born babies to OAPs distrusts the guards, so I can't understand why anyone would want them to pick and chose which laws they can enforce......Other police forces have stepped up and done something about it. Claiming that your hands are tied is a get out of jail card IMO......
That being said, I do think posting a seizure of such a small amount of drugs was a complete waste of time.0 -
The Maverick wrote: »I doubt you'll find any police force in a democratic country that has "stepped up" and decided to ignore the laws of the land without relevant legislation instructing them to do so being enacted by the government. According to this thread, everyone from new born babies to OAPs distrusts the guards, so I can't understand why anyone would want them to pick and chose which laws they can enforce.
That being said, I do think posting a seizure of such a small amount of drugs was a complete waste of time.
Durham http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/durham-police-relaxes-cannabis-stance-6129441
Nationally (UK) http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/cannabis-possession-arrests-fall-as-uk-police-focus-on-other-priorities-a6698836.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11755995/Police-are-turning-a-blind-eye-to-cannabis-across-the-country-experts-claim.html
Derbyshire, Dorset and Surrey http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11767001/Three-more-police-forces-signal-that-they-will-turn-blind-eye-to-cannabis-use.html
Garda work-to-rule ie ignoring certain motoring offences http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/gardai-vow-to-ramp-up-worktorule-campaign-29106335.html0 -
I was at a session once and there was a Guard there enjoying his weed and coke......the same bellend would have no hesitation in doing somebody else if he caught them.0
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The Police and Crime Commissioner in Durham who instructed the police to ignore the possession of small amounts of cannabis is an elected official, the police themselves have not acted without approval from the local government. I don't know the full extent of the legislation here, is there an option to give a warning for being caught with certain amounts of cannabis? If not, there should be. I would go as far to say possession for personal use should be decriminalised but that doesn't change the law as it stands now.Durham http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/durham-police-relaxes-cannabis-stance-6129441
Nationally (UK) http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/cannabis-possession-arrests-fall-as-uk-police-focus-on-other-priorities-a6698836.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11755995/Police-are-turning-a-blind-eye-to-cannabis-across-the-country-experts-claim.html
Derbyshire, Dorset and Surrey http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11767001/Three-more-police-forces-signal-that-they-will-turn-blind-eye-to-cannabis-use.html
Garda work-to-rule ie ignoring certain motoring offences http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/gardai-vow-to-ramp-up-worktorule-campaign-29106335.html0 -
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Little CuChulainn wrote: ».
So you are an advocate of what happened with penalty points? I mean you can't have it both ways. You seem to think it was bad for penalty points but the way to go for drugs.
You're trying to put words in my mouth now because I never said anything about Gardai discretion on matters of drugs or penalty points. You said
And I merely poined out that Gardai already enforce the laws they want to on who they want to as was clearly seen by them quashing points for friends and family members. In some cases drivers who should have been off the road went on to kill and maim innocent civilians, all because the person who crashed into them had mates in the force and individual Gardai decided that the law shouldn't apply for them. Gardai take an oath to apply the laws of the land without fear or favour but the penalty points saga showed us that the oath for some members was nothing more than lip service. There are families in Ireland who have lost loved ones because members decided that they and their friends could be above the law and not apply it equally.Little CuChulainn wrote: »Are you suggesting Gardaí should be allowed change the law or that they should only enforce the laws they want to?
As for this case I've no problems with the Gardai doing their job and confiscating the weed. But posting it up on their Facebook page isn't a very smart PR move and as can be seen from the 5000 odd comments, they've gone and made a laughing stock of themselves.0 -
MarkAnthony wrote: »In all seriousness and without wishing to bash the AGS in anyway, I thought that they already did?
They can choose whether to prosecute a person in some instances or let them off with an informal caution and warning. This is very different from ignoring a law altogether on a national level.The difference is that most people do not commit fraud to the tune of 5k. When you have 50% of students commiting a "crime"l by using cannabis and a quarter of the adult population committing the same crime as well as that "crime" being acceptable in society and the media, it should be a no brainer. It is a massive waste of time.
No you are changing the issue. The issue is whether the Gardaí should be able to choose what laws to ignore. If popular opinion does not like a law then you apparently thing the Gardaí should ignore it. So enforcing the law on car tax should obviously be out the window right? I mean, everyone seems to agree that it should be added to fuel costs instead and there's a lot of people in arrears on their car tax. There's been a lot of people complaining about mandatory insurance since the insurance prices went up. We should probably ignore that too right? Is that the system of law you want?You said that it doesnt take up much Garda time for simple possession. I wouldnt class 60,000 hours per year as not much time wasted and 160,000 irish people with convictions for personal use in the last 10 years.
That's such a made up figure. First of all, people are rarely arrested for simple possession. Second, the new proposed system would still be enforced by the Gardaí so the only hours being saved would be court hours. They basically just took the total number of drug offences and assigned an hourly rate of about 5 and half hours for each one. It's complete nonsense.Other police forces have stepped up and done something about it. Claiming that your hands are tied is a get out of jail card IMO.
Why should the Gardaí? The public showed them how they feel about Gardaí using discretion when it came to fixed charge penalties. Why would any Garda put themselves on the line like that?When politicians make jokes about partaking in a bit of weed when younger and not inhaling, you know it is a joke. If homosexuality was illegal right now and you caught two lads at it, would you arrest them?
What about if you caught a girl with some condoms and they were illegal?
I bet you would not.
What is your point? Those laws have been repealed because the government repealed them following public pressure. Exactly how I said it should be done.Also, do the Gardai not do work to rule as a protest sometimes. Not doing people for tax etc. Is that not ignoring laws created by the executive?
Work to rule was in relation to administrative and personal issues. It wasn't about not enforcing the law. I'm not aware of any instance were the Gardaí decided unilaterally not to enforce a law.You're trying to put words in my mouth now because I never said anything about Gardai discretion on matters of drugs or penalty points. You said
And I merely poined out that Gardai already enforce the laws they want to on who they want to as was clearly seen by them quashing points for friends and family members. In some cases drivers who should have been off the road went on to kill and maim innocent civilians, all because the person who crashed into them had mates in the force and individual Gardai decided that the law shouldn't apply for them. Gardai take an oath to apply the laws of the land without fear or favour but the penalty points saga showed us that the oath for some members was nothing more than lip service. There are families in Ireland who have lost loved ones because members decided that they and their friends could be above the law and not apply it equally.
As for this case I've no problems with the Gardai doing their job and confiscating the weed. But posting it up on their Facebook page isn't a very smart PR move and as can be seen from the 5000 odd comments, they've gone and made a laughing stock of themselves.
So what is your point? Is your point that Gardaí should always enforce the law so the cancellation of fines was wrong on all counts? In which case you must also believe that ignoring cannabis users would also be wrong. Same principle applies. Or are you saying that Gardaí should ignore cannabis use? In which case you must also believe that there was no problem with them cancelling fines for people. You can only have it one way or the other.
You seem to be saying that the Gardaí use to do it for fines so why not for cannabis yet at the same time you are condemning them for doing it with fines.0 -
Little CuChulainn wrote: »So again I ask, are you suggesting that the Gardaí should be able to choose which laws to enforce?
But they already do, as is well known.0 -
Was only having a laugh at those comments a few minutes ago.
I think the funniest thing is if you look at the picture on it's own there is no description or anything on it. It's just a picture posted on Facebook by the Gardai of a bag of weed and a grinder :pac:
I actually assumed it was posted because that was how it was found in the car - sitting in plain view. i.e. a "how dumb can some people be?" post.0 -
Little CuChulainn wrote: »They can choose whether to prosecute a person in some instances or let them off with an informal caution and warning. This is very different from ignoring a law altogether on a national level.
No you are changing the issue. The issue is whether the Gardaí should be able to choose what laws to ignore. If popular opinion does not like a law then you apparently thing the Gardaí should ignore it. So enforcing the law on car tax should obviously be out the window right? I mean, everyone seems to agree that it should be added to fuel costs instead and there's a lot of people in arrears on their car tax. There's been a lot of people complaining about mandatory insurance since the insurance prices went up. We should probably ignore that too right? Is that the system of law you want?
That's such a made up figure. First of all, people are rarely arrested for simple possession. Second, the new proposed system would still be enforced by the Gardaí so the only hours being saved would be court hours. They basically just took the total number of drug offences and assigned an hourly rate of about 5 and half hours for each one. It's complete nonsense.
Why should the Gardaí? The public showed them how they feel about Gardaí using discretion when it came to fixed charge penalties. Why would any Garda put themselves on the line like that?
What is your point? Those laws have been repealed because the government repealed them following public pressure. Exactly how I said it should be done.
Work to rule was in relation to administrative and personal issues. It wasn't about not enforcing the law. I'm not aware of any instance were the Gardaí decided unilaterally not to enforce a law.
So what is your point? Is your point that Gardaí should always enforce the law so the cancellation of fines was wrong on all counts? In which case you must also believe that ignoring cannabis users would also be wrong. Same principle applies. Or are you saying that Gardaí should ignore cannabis use? In which case you must also believe that there was no problem with them cancelling fines for people. You can only have it one way or the other.
You seem to be saying that the Gardaí use to do it for fines so why not for cannabis yet at the same time you are condemning them for doing it with fines.
The issue with penalty points being quashed was not that the guard decided not to prosecute someone for speeding there and then. It was an issue because people were getting their garda friends to wipe their record clean. That is not discretion. That is corruption. Deciding that the young lad you caught with a bag of grass should just get a telling off instead of a conviction is discretion.
You used the example of 5k fraud because it was ridiculous and no one would support the gardai ignoring it. People would support the gardai ignoring simple possession. 40% want it legalised. 40% do not want fraud up to 5k decriminalised.
Ya they did not prosecute the law, which you claim they are forced to...for personal reasons? Thats okay then
Like I said I was caught with cannabis and it took about 30 minutes on the side of the road with 2 gardai. Thats one hour. How much time did it take filling out forms, sending the drugs to be analysed and 2 court appearances by the guard (Maybe 1)?
Now multiply that x 15000 convictions per year which is what it was on average over the last 10 years and you have a huge waste of time and resources.
Im in college so I will be getting free legal aid. This will cost me about 500 in a donation if I am luckily enough to get one and the state probably thousands.
In Portugal, the police only deal with the drug offender at first instance. They dont get arrested. They get given a number and then an appointment with a health board.0 -
Got caught with a bag of weed driving my car. Just finished work and had just picked it up. They are doing me for possession as well as being in charge of a vehicle and allowing someone to possess drugs (ME).
The second offence I can lose my licence for. I am so angry it is hard to express.
How were you caught in the first place? Was it a random check or were you passing a checkpoint? Were you caught red handed so to speak?0 -
I dont want to say too much in case the particular guard is Cu Chulainn haha but lets just say I was really really unlucky.0
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The Gardai didn't seem so keen to enforce the laws on penalty points and a few of those drivers caught went on to kill people on our roads after their points were quashed by their Garda mates.
And when a Garda got caught growing 77 cannibis plants up in Dundalk back in 2011 he didn't receive the 10 year mandatory prison sentence for possession of that amount, he got off scot free surprise,surprise while people caught with far less serve their time.
You can't have it both ways, the law should apply equally to all citizens but in Ireland clearly it does not. It's part of the reason why people have lost respect for the Gardai.
Not true. I live quite near that lad. He did get time in prison. He was missing from the area for awhile, not sure how long though maybe 2 years. Just saying.0 -
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Just my own use but they are doing me for driving a car while allowing someone to possess too (me) which is a disqualification offense. I was not high or anything when they stopped me either. Its a law made for real criminals i reckon but police forces the world over use whatever they can.0
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Just to say to Cu Chulainn I have no issue with you as a person or guards in general. I just disagree with the level of tenacity this law is enforced0
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But they already do, as is well known.
We'll have to agree to disagree on that. Gardaí decide wether to prosecute individuals, not wether to ignore a particular law altogether. But lets say they do agree to ignore certain laws. Do you think this would be right?The issue with penalty points being quashed was not that the guard decided not to prosecute someone for speeding there and then. It was an issue because people were getting their garda friends to wipe their record clean. That is not discretion. That is corruption. Deciding that the young lad you caught with a bag of grass should just get a telling off instead of a conviction is discretion.
See this is the problem with the silence from AGS on the penalty points issue. People don't have a clue how things happened. Gardaí couldn't wipe points from anyone. Only someone of the rank of Superintendent could cancel a fine. And the vast majority of these cancellations were completely legit. The others were indeed corruption but they were in a small minority of cases.You used the example of 5k fraud because it was ridiculous and no one would support the gardai ignoring it. People would support the gardai ignoring simple possession. 40% want it legalised. 40% do not want fraud up to 5k decriminalised.
Why? In most cases the cost of prosecuting theft offences is more than the cost of the offence itself. If cost and Garda time is a valid argument for cannabis then why not for theft?Ya they did not prosecute the law, which you claim they are forced to...for personal reasons? Thats okay then
I'm not sure what you are referring to here.Like I said I was caught with cannabis and it took about 30 minutes on the side of the road with 2 gardai. Thats one hour. How much time did it take filling out forms, sending the drugs to be analysed and 2 court appearances by the guard (Maybe 1)?
Now multiply that x 15000 convictions per year which is what it was on average over the last 10 years and you have a huge waste of time and resources.
30 minutes? For a simple search and taking your name? It takes five to ten minutes. The form takes 2 minutes and the drugs are sent in in bulk every few weeks. Very little time investment. But this seems to be just a tandem argument you've attached on to your main argument which is the popularity of the law.Im in college so I will be getting free legal aid. This will cost me about 500 in a donation if I am luckily enough to get one and the state probably thousands.
I doubt you'll be getting free legal aid for a first offence with no possibility of jail time. You'll more likely get a conviction dismissed under the probation act.In Portugal, the police only deal with the drug offender at first instance. They dont get arrested. They get given a number and then an appointment with a health board.
It sounds like a great system. We don't have it here yet though.0 -
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Just my own use but they are doing me for driving a car while allowing someone to possess too (me) which is a disqualification offense. I was not high or anything when they stopped me either. Its a law made for real criminals i reckon but police forces the world over use whatever they can.
I'd love to know the law around that. It's like being done for drunk driving because you have a keg in the boot.
A good solicitor will sort that out for you. I think the cannabis laws need to be debated more in the Dail. I have seen lads get criminal records for being caught with a small bit of weed and then being refused a visa to go abroad.
I'm saying that and I support the Gardai but i have issues with this law.0 -
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I was referring to the work to rule. Not enforcing certain motoring offences.
30 minutes was a bit of an exaggeration. It took about 10 minutes to search my car (its messy haha). 10 minutes inside the car talking to the guard and signing the stuff. What about court time though. Surely that is quite a while.
On the form filling, I always thought police were complaining about too much form filling taking too much time. Might not be an Irish police force issue though.
AFAIK, free legal aid is based on income only. Not on how many times you have been convicted.
I believe you can only get the probation act once and as I have two charges I would be convicted on one no?
There is a joint oireachtas commitee that was investigating it and they are recommending it. Might see it implemented when Misuse of Drugs Act is up for renewal in 2016. Depends on the government though.
Like I said I have no personal issue with you or even gardai in general until I felt like they were really screwing me. Possession fair enough. The other charge is extremly excessive IMO. Have a 3rd year placement in the States with a prestigious institution which I may not be able to go to and its a real kick in the balls.
Can you tell me who decides what charges to bring against me. Is it the arresting guard, the sergeant or the super intendent? Or the DA?0 -
Little CuChulainn wrote: »What is the exact charge you are referring to?
The solicitor has my charge sheets so im not entirely sure think i remember section 19(1) maybe. Ancillary disqualification. Basically I was in charge of a vehicle and allowed someone to possess cannabis in that vehicle (My cannabis on me).
I was with two other people. Someone said it may be so I cant say in court it wasnt my cannabis and they would still have the other charge on me but that doesnt seem likely.0 -
The level of disrespect and outright hatred shown towards our Gardai is really mind boggling at times.
I have to assume that all those responsible, no matter how much they try to deny it, have found themselves on the wrong side of the criminal justice system and instead of accepting their own failures, try to fob off the Gardai who in the majority of case are simply doing their jobs.
Folks it's really quite simple; Treat the Gardai with respect and you will receive it. Act hostile, refuse to cooperate, become abusive or laugh in their faces and you will be treated accordingly.
And if you don't a conviction on your record or your life to be ruined of a little bit of weed....well you could try not breaking the law...drugs are iilegal, if the Gardai catch in possession there will rightly be repercussions.0 -
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AudreyHepburn wrote: »The level of disrespect and outright hatred shown towards our Gardai is really mind boggling at times.
I have to assume that all those responsible, no matter how much they try to deny it, have found themselves on the wrong side of the criminal justice system and instead of accepting their own failures, try to fob off the Gardai who in the majority of case are simply doing their jobs.
Folks it's really quite simple; Treat the Gardai with respect and you will receive it. Act hostile, refuse to cooperate, become abusive or laugh in their faces and you will be treated accordingly.
And if you don't a conviction on your record or your life to be ruined of a little bit of weed....well you could try not breaking the law...drugs are iilegal, if the Gardai catch in possession there will rightly be repercussions.
I have always had respect for the guards because I always wanted to be one. Applied before the recruitment freeze. I still have respect in general for the gardai but when I think about my own personal case it is hard to not feel resentment.
It is quite easy to say dont smoke weed or whatever but when you grow up nowadays it is everywhere. Movies, music videos, pop culture, comedy, tv shows, even presidents joking about it. It is such an integral part of mainstream society that you forget there is such draconian laws around it until you are caught with it.
You dont seem to understand that more than half of Irish students have used cannabis. A quarter of Irish adults have. Many of our politicians have. The last 3 presidents of the US have. The current one was a full blown stoner by all accounts.
Do you think they would be there if they had been caught with cannabis as a young adult? It is highly unlikely.0
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