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How do you convince people god exists?

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Comments

  • #92
    Nobelium
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭Nobelium


    How do you convince people God exists?

    You don't.

    Even if God genuinely appeared in front of me, and created planets on the spot for me, it wouldn't be proof he was in fact God. . . it could just be an extremely advanced alien being. There will always be some other possible explanation.

    What makes God . . . God ?

    Faith I presume ?


  • #93
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,776 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    My answer is always, show them a photo of a Sumatran Tiger and ask them if they really believe that happened by accident.

    In all seriousness, to me, Science and God are one in the same. I am not a person of much faith, I seek out proof and plausibility for almost everything, its in my nature. Man has made great sense of his universe through repeatable demonstration. However the science is always finite, the physics of all creation, at least insofar as we understand it now, has dead ends, horizons beyond which we really have no clue.

    Did the matter of all things blink into being, was it created from a previous destruction and if so what in turn inspired that into existence.

    I'm no bible basher, it was written by flawed sinners that men are and it was aimed at a the simple and illiterate civilisation of the time, then picked apart and reformed by Councils of further flawed sinners in later eras to suit their own agendas and to control people. It may have been inspired by tales of good and kind people but really you could never take it as Gospel....

    Stephen Hawking said he believed the Universe spontaneously created out of nothing, from a point of singularity, according to the laws of nature that are fixed. His dismissal of a Creator is based on his hypothesis that there was absolutely nothing, even time, before this event and so there was not 'time' for God to exist.

    All I sense from that was a frustration at reaching the limit of knowledge, of understanding, but since I first read him I have always wondered, with that conclusion, who was the Professor trying to convince, others or himself....


  • #94
    Nikki Sixx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 426 ✭✭Nikki Sixx


    For me the seasons and the way nature moves in cycles is fascinating. I find it too hard to believe that say the seasons, the way animals hibernate each year and the dependence of flowers on honey bees to complete their life cycle, is all an accident. But I’m sure I’ll be regarded as simple for saying that.


  • #95
    Eggs For Dinner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,932 ✭✭✭Eggs For Dinner


    kneemos wrote: »
    If a God didn't allow cancer you'd say why is there starvation? Get rid of starvation you say why do folk fall down stairs,etc,etc,etc.

    What you're talking about is an impossible utopia where the ultimate logical conclusion is a world where everyone lives the same perfect pain and trouble free life.

    Is that not what's supposed to be on offer in an afterlife? That makes the pain and suffering in this life a deliberate decision to fluck with his own creations


  • #96
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,705 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Nikki Sixx wrote: »
    If life is so meaningless/ pointless, you could always throw yourself off a bridge.

    Mod warning: Advocating suicide because someone does not share your worldview is both offensive and below the standards expected of this forum. Next time is a card


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  • #97
    igCorcaigh
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,055 Mod ✭✭✭✭igCorcaigh


    I guess the most charitable interpretation of theism I could conceive of is a form of pantheism, whereby all is God and the evolution of the universe is the process of God becoming itself.

    Although this is just a poetic form of atheism, and scientific evidence supports no form of teleology.

    Still though, it might answer the question as to why bad things exist, or at least allow it not to be such a conundrum.

    In this view, God is a process of becoming, not something external and omnipotent, but something much more fragile and unsure.


  • #98
    uptherebels
    Registered Users Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    Nikki Sixx wrote: »
    For me the seasons and the way nature moves in cycles is fascinating. I find it too hard to believe that say the seasons, the way animals hibernate each year and the dependence of flowers on honey bees to complete their life cycle, is all an accident. But I’m sure I’ll be regarded as simple for saying that.

    You just don't understand how evolution works.


  • #99
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,780 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Nikki Sixx wrote:
    For me the seasons and the way nature moves in cycles is fascinating. I find it too hard to believe that say the seasons, the way animals hibernate each year and the dependence of flowers on honey bees to complete their life cycle, is all an accident. But I’m sure I’ll be regarded as simple for saying that.


    The workings of nature sure is astonishing, you d have to wonder, how the hell has all this been created here, on this little blue rock. Yup it all could be a complete fluck, are maybe not, who knows. Your thoughts are not simple at all, life on this planet, and how it all got here, is simply astonishing


  • #100
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users Posts: 16,109 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    CQD wrote: »
    Well it's being written to an agenda..
    Probably sold like hot cakes amongst the Dawkins acolytes..
    So, well, really, I would just disregard it tbh..

    Has there been a book in history that hasn't been written to an agenda, a plan?

    Well, of course you'd disregard it! Your loss.

    It would have been banned by the church in an earlier time.

    But agendas, sure...


  • #101
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,228 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    My answer is always, show them a photo of a Sumatran Tiger and ask them if they really believe that happened by accident.
    who argues that it did happen by accident?
    non-believers don't support the famous 'tornado hits a scrapyard and accidentally assembles a 747' concept.


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  • #102
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,776 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    who argues that it did happen by accident?

    Darwin.


  • #103
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,705 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Darwin.

    So from that, do you believe the theory of evolution to be false, for example that there were always Sumatran tigers exactly the same as we see them today and there were always feathered birds in the sky?


  • #104
    olestoepoke
    Registered Users Posts: 2,386 ✭✭✭olestoepoke


    smacl wrote: »
    So from that, do you believe the theory of evolution to be false, for example that there were always Sumatran tigers exactly the same as we see them today and there were always feathered birds in the sky?

    The universe is that vast and the planets and stars are that numerous, more than we are capable of imagining. Given this, is it not reasonable to assume that at least one planet out of trillions can accidentally form life? Be the exact distance needed from the sun, a planet that has just the right composition, the goldilocks theory. Probability is there.


  • #105
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,257 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    kneemos wrote: »
    Don't think it's that far fetched,given the existence of the universe a God isn't really any more bizzare.

    Religion though is mostly a croc of shoite.

    physics and chemistry are not bizarre

    supernatural deities are not remotely comparable


  • #106
    Gonad
    Registered Users Posts: 654 ✭✭✭Gonad


    I don’t believe in god myself but i find it strange when I am about to receive really bad news I automatically look to the sky and in my mind say please god no .

    Maybe it’s just in my mind from when I was younger going to church or whatever . But I asked many people and they all do the same thing .


  • #107
    jobeenfitz
    Registered Users Posts: 2,443 ✭✭✭jobeenfitz


    ILoveYourVibes wrote: »
    How do you in history?


    And how do you do it now?

    With all the evidence etc.

    The same way you prove there are fairies.


  • #108
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,705 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    olestoepoke wrote: »
    The universe is that vast and the planets and stars are that numerous, more than we are capable of imagining. Given this, is it not reasonable to assume that at least one planet out of trillions can accidentally form life? Be the exact distance needed from the sun, a planet that has just the right composition, the goldilocks theory. Probability is there.

    I've no issues with abiogenesis and subsequent evolution.


  • #109
    bobbysands81
    Registered Users Posts: 7,198 ✭✭✭bobbysands81


    CQD wrote: »
    Tbh I think the whole atheist trend that is happening now will turn out to be just a phase we go through..

    So much of it is like listening to a disgruntled 15 year old..

    Great... but that doesn’t answer the question as to how you convince people that God exists. Where is the evidence?


  • #110
    bobbysands81
    Registered Users Posts: 7,198 ✭✭✭bobbysands81


    Gonad wrote: »
    I don’t believe in god myself but i find it strange when I am about to receive really bad news I automatically look to the sky and in my mind say please god no .

    Maybe it’s just in my mind from when I was younger going to church or whatever . But I asked many people and they all do the same thing .

    It’s probably a Pavlovian response.


  • #111
    olestoepoke
    Registered Users Posts: 2,386 ✭✭✭olestoepoke


    Gonad wrote: »
    I don’t believe in god myself but i find it strange when I am about to receive really bad news I automatically look to the sky and in my mind say please god no .

    Maybe it’s just in my mind from when I was younger going to church or whatever . But I asked many people and they all do the same thing .

    Indoctrinated from your childhood. Difficult to shake that but liberating when you do


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  • #112
    Birdie Num Num
    Registered Users Posts: 1,252 ✭✭✭Birdie Num Num


    Peatys wrote: »
    Childhood cancer is all i need to know about your god

    Ah that old chestnut.


  • #113
    kneemos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,407 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    lawred2 wrote: »
    physics and chemistry are not bizarre

    supernatural deities are not remotely comparable


    That a universe can pop into existence out of nothing is as bizzare as it gets.


    Nobody really knows though.


  • #114
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,395 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    You should read "The Darkening Age". The early Christian Church literally bullied, beat, stabbed and burnt the intellectual curiosity out of Europe. The only way it could propagate itself.
    'The Darkening Age' looks like it might cover similar ground to Charles Freeman's excellent 'The Closing of the Western Mind':

    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/138929.The_Closing_of_the_Western_Mind


  • #115
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,395 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Nikki Sixx wrote: »
    For me the seasons and the way nature moves in cycles is fascinating. I find it too hard to believe that say the seasons, the way animals hibernate each year and the dependence of flowers on honey bees to complete their life cycle, is all an accident.
    Couldn't agree more - the slow arc of the natural seasons and the march of the living, natural world alongside is really quite amazing to watch.

    Much of which is clearly, simply, profoundly and rather wonderfully explained by science. Chance plays a part, but within bounds which heavily limit the usefulness of random outcomes.


  • #116
    Hedgelayer
    Registered Users Posts: 530 ✭✭✭Hedgelayer


    robindch wrote: »
    Couldn't agree more - the slow arc of the natural seasons and the march of the living, natural world alongside is really quite amazing to watch.

    Much of which is clearly, simply, profoundly and rather wonderfully explained by science. Chance plays a part, but within bounds which heavily limit the usefulness of random outcomes.

    And one thing for certain nature never forgives.


  • #117
    victor8600
    Registered Users Posts: 1,602 ✭✭✭victor8600


    I wonder when the normal fallible god of the Old Testament became the All-Mighty All-Seeing God Who Does Everything Everywhere (TM).

    I mean you either believe what The Holy Bible says or you do not. And if you take the Bible as a credible source, you could see that while God is powerful and capable of creating matter, energy and living beings in a short space of time, It also capable of errors. God had to cause the flood to erase early design mistakes, expel Adam and Eve and so on. Now you could believe in such a god because It is not all-mighty, It gave you life and gave you the free will, and such a god manifests itself through miracles which cannot be explained other than as proofs of a divine intervention (because 2K years ago no other credible explanation existed). It also guided selected people to kill other people and take their land, so it was not an all-merciful god too.

    Whoever invented the All-mighty God did it no favors. Now this god is supposed to know the future and personally select each sperm particle lest a genetically damaged one fertilizes a woman's egg to produce a sick child. If you expect this god to alleviate all suffering, the free will ceases to exist.

    However, if we are talking about an abstract God, it is highly probable that a god may exist in the future. The current understanding in physics is that the time travel into the past is theoretically possible. Ergo, if a future advanced being cares to do so, it may play God on Earth.


  • #118
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,705 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    victor8600 wrote: »
    The current understanding in physics is that the time travel into the past is theoretically possible

    Do you have a credible reference for that one?


  • #119
    victor8600
    Registered Users Posts: 1,602 ✭✭✭victor8600


    smacl wrote: »
    Do you have a credible reference for that one?

    Would a pop-sci article suffice?

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/according-to-current-phys/

    While Einstein's 4D description of the universe does not forbid traveling through time in either direction, we do not have any evidence of time travel to the past. Thus we can assume that time travel backwards is not practically possible, for example it may require enormous energy input. Or there may be some underlying principle which we have not uncovered yet which prevents backward time travel.


  • #120
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    kneemos wrote: »

    What you're talking about is an impossible utopia where the ultimate logical conclusion is a world where everyone lives the same perfect pain and trouble free life.

    The sort of place an ever loving omnipotent being could easily create you mean?

    I just don't get the adoration at all, if there is a god (I don't believe there is, but you never know I suppose) but if there is, he has happily watched and done nothing while millions of his children starved, he hasn't lifted a finger to stop one rapist or murderer and so on. And that's before you even get in to things like cancer and sickness and so on.

    So I think whether a god exists or not is not even all that important, its blindingly obvious to me that if he does exist he's a monster, he's in no way deserving of praise or worship.

    Even if he does exist, I want nothing to do with him, I can't see how any right thinking person would.


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  • #121
    Hobosan
    Registered Users Posts: 582 ✭✭✭Hobosan


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    The sort of place an ever loving omnipotent being could easily create you mean?

    I just don't get the adoration at all, if there is a god (I don't believe there is, but you never know I suppose) but if there is, he has happily watched and done nothing while millions of his children starved, he has lifted a finger to stop one rapist or murderer and so on. And that's before you even get in to things like cancer and sickness and so on.

    So I think whether a god exists or not is not even all that important, its blindingly obvious to me that if he does exist he's a monster, he's in no way deserving of praise or worship.

    Even if he does exist, I want nothing to do with him, I can't see how any right thinking person would.

    You don't understand the adoration? Do you know how people kowtowed in Soviet Russia so not to upset Stalin and his underlings? Now, apply that subservience to the megalomaniac in the sky and you have your answer.


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