Uber

makeorbrake · 17-06-2019 10:30pm

usernamegoes wrote: »

Like I said. I didn't say it would. It would be better overall though.

Look no one buys it. I can't remember if you are a taxi driver and if you drive a WAT or not. But If you are and if you don't drive a WAT then I think that's proof enough.

I think you know this already but some elements here will have you believe that there is only one conceivable solution to the facilitation of mobility services for wheelchair users. That's not the case - but of course, it can be quite the flag of convenience if it also stunts the development of ride sharing services.

AndrewJRenko · 17-06-2019 10:31pm

usernamegoes wrote: »

Like I said. I didn't say it would. It would be better overall though.

Except it wasn't better overall. If you talk to anyone who worked in the sector at the time, you'll see that it wasn't better, and came nowhere near providing a decent solution. Here's a view from one of the leading disability organisations;

https://www.disability-federation.ie/about/publications/august-2014-newsletter/full-text/

usernamegoes wrote: »

Look no one buys it. I can't remember if you are a taxi driver and if you drive a WAT or not. But If you are and if you don't drive a WAT then I think that's proof enough.

I'm not a taxi driver. I've never been a taxi driver. I've no vested interest in taxi services, apart from being an occasional taxi customer.

If you have any magic solutions to this issue, please share them. It's unlikely that people will take you seriously if you pretend that solutions exist but you fail to explain what these are.

usernamegoes · 17-06-2019 10:43pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

https://www.disability-federation.ie/about/publications/august-2014-newsletter/full-text/

I stopped reading after it said the information presented was from Wheelchairtaxi.ie a website which sells, you guessed it, WAVs

Spook_ie · 17-06-2019 11:08pm

usernamegoes wrote: »

Totally disagree on your counter to my point on increasing the number of cars available. This would single-handedly improve the situation for disabled travellers.

I agree on the VRT point. Not sure on how much of a subsidy It's obviously needs to be more than it is now, but I'd be interested to hear argument on quantum or other innovative solutions to encouraging WAVs for those who are interested instead of using a sledge hammer to crack a nut as is the case now and being left with a ****ty nut even when it is cracked.

My point on bus lanes was for WAV taxis only and only in situations where all taxis can use them now. To be clear I don't think ride-sharing vehicles should be allowed use bus lanes.

Relatively constructive post until the needless patronizing at the end.

Your premise of having more cars would increase the availability of WATs falls at the first fence.

WAT operators require to be able to cover normal fares as well to cover the additional costs associated with WATs. You increase the number of cars you decrease their overall profitability by reducing the availability of non disabled fares, brief math of it, may not be accurate but you'll get the gist.

Available Taxi income as a sector non WAT users €2,000,000,000
Available Taxi Income created by WAT users who need a WAT €100,000,000
So 5% of the available market is pure WAT, you obviously need more than 5% of the fleet to be WAT accessible to cover them effectively to allow for travel times, non 24 hour drivers, holidays, breakdowns etc. So we'll set an arbitrary figure of 10%

Let's assume that all drivers get an equitable income from their work, and the fleet consists of 20,000 saloon cars and 2000 WATs (10%)

Income for the WATs and Saloons would be 90K or so ( if only )
Income for the WATs from WAT work would be 50k

Now you increase the number of saloons by 25%, to 25,000
Income for WATs and Saloons drops to 74K( again if only )
Income from WAT work remains at 50K but the loss to WATs because you introduced more competition is 16k overall.

Now unless you are proposing that WATs are only ever used to transport WA passengers in which case you need to supplement the WATs by several thousand per year then introducing more saloons is detrimental to WATs therefore in the long run detrimental to their availability. This is what happened in the years before allowing only WAT licenses to be issued, the number of WATs dropped.

The question of VRT on WATs has been raised before and no doubt will be raised again, but throwing the baby out with the bathwater because you want more saloons or ride sharing is just not a solution.

Dec 2006

June 2007

July 2010

Oct 2010

Glad to see you disagree about ride share not being allowed to use bus lanes, but, (EDIT) If you bar saloon taxis from the buslanes then (END EDIT) unless you bar able bodied people from taking the WATs then anybody wanting to get into town quickly via the bus lanes is going to book a WAT, cutting their availability even more.

Wasn't meant to be condescending as I said good effort but no figures to even try backing up the thought process of more saloons increasing the availability of WATs

AndrewJRenko · 17-06-2019 11:09pm

usernamegoes wrote: »

I stopped reading after it said the information presented was from Wheelchairtaxi.ie a website which sells, you guessed it, WAVs

Can I suggest that, if you really don't know much about a topic or an issue, you don't dig a bigger and bigger hole for yourself.

Wheelchairtaxi.ie was set up by Stephen Cluskey, a wheelchair user as a portal for registering owners/operators of WAVs to allow people to book directly with the driver, as this was the only way wheelchair users could have any hope of booking a vehicle.

Here's an article from that time with more details;

https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/taxis-wheelchair-access-dublin-ireland-1429299-Apr2014/

At some time since then, the domain has been sold or reused by a seller of WAVs, but that's not what it was at the time that the article was written. Stephen has now moved on to other things with his new venture, Mobility Mojo.

Spook_ie · 17-06-2019 11:23pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

<Snipped>

https://www.disability-federation.ie/about/publications/august-2014-newsletter/full-text/

<snipped>

Am I missing something here, link for me goes to August 2014 newsletter? but as regards Stephen Cluskey From your last post perhaps this might also help educate the forum members

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Cluskey

AndrewJRenko · 17-06-2019 11:34pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

Am I missing something here, link for me goes to August 2014 newsletter? ]

Scroll down in the newsletter

Spook_ie · 17-06-2019 11:35pm

makeorbrake wrote: »

I think you know this already but some elements here will have you believe that there is only one conceivable solution to the facilitation of mobility services for wheelchair users. That's not the case - but of course, it can be quite the flag of convenience if it also stunts the development of ride sharing services.

I just know I'm going to regret engaging with you and your lack of facts to back up your statements BUT what, if any, are your conceivable solutions?

Spook_ie · 17-06-2019 11:35pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Scroll down in the newsletter

How far?

EDIT Found it but it's a long scroll
For convenience of others

New Regulations May Ease “Crisis Point” in Wheelchair Taxi Numbers
In April 2014, new regulations on the taxi industry were introduced by the National Transport Authority, many of which relate to wheelchair-accessible taxis. Stephen Cluskey, founder of Wheelchairtaxi.ie, was involved in the committee process which decided on these measures. Here, he highlights some of the changes and gives his opinion on them.

In terms of accessibility, the new taxi regulations are not perfect, but they are the most significant changes we have seen in a very long time, aiming to help wheelchair taxi drivers and their passengers.

Let’s start with one that seemed to get some media attention: the lowering of standards for a wheelchair-accessible taxi. Previous regulation stated that a wheelchair-accessible taxi must be able to take “a wheelchair user plus three passengers”, but this has been changed to “a wheelchair user plus one passenger”. This opens up the Irish market to more affordable vehicles, such as the Peugeot Premier, which cost in the region of €27,500, including Value Added Tax (VAT) and Vehicle Registration Tax (VRT); previously, the cheapest new wheelchair-accessible taxi a driver could purchase was upwards of €40,000. These operate great as a regular taxi and feel far more comfortable for a wheelchair user in comparison to many of the seven-seaters currently out there. They provide taxi drivers who want to do wheelchair work with a good alternative option to what is currently out there, at a far more reasonable price.

There is no maximum age limit for current operating wheelchair-accessible taxis, and this will not be changed. The reason behind this is because there has been such depletion in numbers (more than 40% in the last two years alone) that, if these vehicles were taken off the road, they would not be readily replaced. Some of these vehicles are not fully suitable (although many are), but I think it is better to have something rather than nothing at all. I know from experience it is not pleasant being stranded with no way home as there is no wheelchair-accessible taxi, and taking these vehicles off the road overnight would only make the situation for wheelchair users much worse.

New and replacement wheelchair-accessible taxis will, however, be subject to a 14 year age limit rule, in comparison to ten years for a saloon taxi. New wheelchair taxis will also now need to be less than six years old, in comparison to three years for a saloon taxi. This six-year rule was introduced to try to bridge the price difference between saloon and wheelchair taxis, making the latter more affordable for drivers, with a longer lifespan of 14 years.

Under the new regulations, drivers will now be able to swap their existing licence from a standard taxi to a wheelchair accessible taxi, which they previously could not do. They can also change back to their saloon licence if they wish; this gives the driver some flexibility should they wish to pursue either route. Personally, I would prefer a driver not to be able to change back, as I feel we should be moving towards a taxi industry which is inclusive to everyone in society, but can understand the thinking behind this as many drivers invested significantly in their saloon licences. The six-year rule also applies to the wheelchair-accessible vehicle age for a licence swap.

These new regulations are not perfect, but I believe they will go a long way to encouraging more drivers to opt for a wheelchair-accessible taxi over a saloon in a time where, for example, there are only two wheelchair-accessible taxis throughout the whole of Tipperary. I recently got an e-mail from someone in Donegal who couldn’t get a wheelchair-accessible taxi to take their mother to the funeral of her own husband. These sorts of stories are rarely heard about, but happen everyday and they are not acceptable in Ireland 2014. Taxis are the only real door to door public transport service for many people, and should not exclude members of our society. We are at crisis point with wheelchair taxi numbers, even though the taxi industry as a whole is a saturated market, but I see these new regulations as a good first step to going some way to addressing this issue.

makeorbrake · 18-06-2019 12:15am

Spook_ie wrote: »

I just know I'm going to regret engaging with you and your lack of facts to back up your statements BUT what, if any, are your conceivable solutions?

That factually inaccurate claim (one of countless at this stage) is not deserving of such a response.

Spook_ie · 18-06-2019 12:28am

makeorbrake wrote: »

That factually inaccurate claim (one of countless at this stage) is not deserving of such a response.

So you mean you haven't any solutions backed up by facts or non facts, guessed as much.

makeorbrake · 18-06-2019 12:49am

Spook_ie wrote: »

So you mean you haven't any solutions backed up by facts or non facts, guessed as much.

I mean that I'm not a taxi driver or driven by some ideology that considers Uber to be evil. I don't bring that baggage to the table. So every time you and your co-travelers start twisting things up (as you have done ad nauseum), any neutral can see what you're doing.

I do hope that explains it in terms that you will understand. Anyone who suggests that another solution can't be found to that issue that facilitates both doesn't have one jot of credibility.

Spook_ie · 18-06-2019 12:53am

makeorbrake wrote: »

I think you know this already but some elements here will have you believe that there is only one conceivable solution to the facilitation of mobility services for wheelchair users. That's not the case - but of course, it can be quite the flag of convenience if it also stunts the development of ride sharing services.

makeorbrake wrote: »

I mean that I'm not a taxi driver or driven by some ideology that considers Uber to be evil. I don't bring that baggage to the table. So every time you and your co-travelers start twisting things up (as you have done ad nauseum), any neutral can see what you're doing.

I do hope that explains it in terms that you will understand. Anyone who suggests that another solution can't be found to that issue that facilitates both doesn't have one jot of credibility.

If it's not the case, then you must have an alternative solution otherwise how do you KNOW that it's not the most conceivable solution?

makeorbrake · 18-06-2019 12:58am

Spook_ie wrote: »

If it's not the case, then you must have an alternative solution otherwise how do you KNOW that it's not the most conceivable solution?

"I know what I know".

monument · 18-06-2019 8:03am

Everybody — stop bickering!

makeorbrake wrote: »

"I know what I know".

Last warning — cut out these type of replies.

—moderator

Spook_ie · 18-06-2019 9:07am

makeorbrake wrote: »

"I know what I know".

So would you like to let us know what you know, especially with regard to how you'd propose an equitable service for disabled riders who don't have the ability to transition from wheelchair to vehicle but have to travel "in chair" often with a carer?

shnaek · 18-06-2019 11:33am

stonebob wrote: »

Just back from London where I used Airbnb and Uber with great success......Uber was half the price of a taxi and there seemed to be one around every corner ..everyone loves them ..I know there's an argument about regulation of drivers but there's a lot of dodgy taxi drivers too just read the papers ...the drivers were polite ..spotless cars..and they don't tap on..

I use Uber whenever I'm in the UK and it's great. Reliable, quick, good value. Twice now I've been out in Cork city when it's raining (the very time you need a taxi most). I live in the burbs, and I've not been able to get a taxi home. Recently I spent a half hour in the lashing rain trying to hail a taxi and eventually had to walk home. I was soaked to the bone. So I am all for Uber being legal here - it's totally Irish to be suspicious of the future and to protect the insiders. Been on to my local councilors here about it but I'm not sure something is going to happen, though they did get back to me with sympathetic responses and assurances that they would raise the issue. We'll see.

makeorbrake · 18-06-2019 12:48pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

So would you like to let us know what you know, especially with regard to how you'd propose an equitable service for disabled riders who don't have the ability to transition from wheelchair to vehicle but have to travel "in chair" often with a carer?

No, I certainly wouldn't. It is clear as night and day that there is more than one solution to such a problem. It's not that complex a problem by any stretch of the imagination. Greater issues have been overcome.

And just to remind you - that's that wheelchair users are facilitated and ride sharing is facilitated. Ride sharing doesn't need to be snuffed out to appease vested interests (and vested interests who are continually hiding behind they WA issue).

Spook_ie · 18-06-2019 1:05pm

makeorbrake wrote: »

No, I certainly wouldn't. It is clear as night and day that there is more than one solution to such a problem. It's not that complex a problem by any stretch of the imagination. Greater issues have been overcome.

And just to remind you - that's that wheelchair users are facilitated and ride sharing is facilitated. Ride sharing doesn't need to be snuffed out to appease vested interests (and vested interests who are continually hiding behind they WA issue).

If it's as clear as night and day then you must have at least one suggestion, only asking for one or is it that there isn't a solution that you're aware of?

makeorbrake · 18-06-2019 1:15pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

If it's as clear as night and day then you must have at least one suggestion, only asking for one or is it that there isn't a solution that you're aware of?

It's that your determination to go down this route means to me that you don't want there to be another solution because it's not in your interests. It ties in with other facets of this discussion and the pressing for information that was neither here nor there.

Any irish consumer is not going to be believe you for a second if you suggest that the ONLY way to facilitate WAV's is to see to it that ride sharing is unworkable.

Spook_ie · 18-06-2019 1:30pm

makeorbrake wrote: »

It's that your determination to go down this route means to me that you don't want there to be another solution because it's not in your interests. It ties in with other facets of this discussion and the pressing for information that was neither here nor there.

Any irish consumer is not going to be believe you for a second if you suggest that the ONLY way to facilitate WAV's is to see to it that ride sharing is unworkable.

Which route would you like to go, just like a taxi driver I'll give you a route preference, as long as you answer the questions raised when we go down that route.

Edit. It's the only route that's been in planning since 2010, if you have another plan then I think people need to hear it, after all if the NTA are wrong and complicit with taxi drivers to impose artificial barriers then they are against the very premise that the taxi regulators office and legislation was set up for.

AndrewJRenko · 18-06-2019 1:50pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

Which route would you like to go, just like a taxi driver I'll give you a route preference, as long as you answer the questions raised when we go down that route.

Edit. It's the only route that's been in planning since 2010, if you have another plan then I think people need to hear it, after all if the NTA are wrong and complicit with taxi drivers to impose artificial barriers then they are against the very premise that the taxi regulators office and legislation was set up for.

Just for a little context, it is also an issue that has challenged taxi authorities in many countries around the world. But hey, I'm sure it's feasible that folks that only learnt of the issue this week have some solutions that have evaded many others.

Spook_ie · 18-06-2019 2:34pm

shnaek wrote: »

I use Uber whenever I'm in the UK and it's great. Reliable, quick, good value. Twice now I've been out in Cork city when it's raining (the very time you need a taxi most). I live in the burbs, and I've not been able to get a taxi home. Recently I spent a half hour in the lashing rain trying to hail a taxi and eventually had to walk home. I was soaked to the bone. So I am all for Uber being legal here - it's totally Irish to be suspicious of the future and to protect the insiders. Been on to my local councilors here about it but I'm not sure something is going to happen, though they did get back to me with sympathetic responses and assurances that they would raise the issue. We'll see.

Unfortunately if Uber were here on their terms then on those nights you would likely have paid 4 or 5 times the norm, maybe more depending on what surge pricing they invoked and still no guarantee that you'd have got a ride, the one thing I would almost guarantee, is that if you'd walked to a cab office, rang a cab office, used one of the cab office apps, taxi rank or used MyTaxi you'd have gotten a cab eventually, and maybe surprisingly quicker than you'd think.

Spook_ie · 18-06-2019 3:48pm

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://mytaxi.com/fileadmin/Legal_Documents/Ireland/GTC_match_Ireland.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjvm__hovPiAhWOQEEAHW9ZBEgQFjAFegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw32bq_vI3Wu3ryR9ofL0QLJ

Real ride sharing, wonder if it'll work/take off

makeorbrake · 18-06-2019 5:48pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

Which route would you like to go, just like a taxi driver I'll give you a route preference, as long as you answer the questions raised when we go down that route.

Edit. It's the only route that's been in planning since 2010, if you have another plan then I think people need to hear it, after all if the NTA are wrong and complicit with taxi drivers to impose artificial barriers then they are against the very premise that the taxi regulators office and legislation was set up for.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Just for a little context, it is also an issue that has challenged taxi authorities in many countries around the world. But hey, I'm sure it's feasible that folks that only learnt of the issue this week have some solutions that have evaded many others.

I have no intention of going down that road. As an aside with your route analogy, I don't have to worry much about route choice - the tech decides (based on real time conditions) and its not set up to screw the passenger.

I have no intention of convincing either of you two (and a few others here) that the views you're expressing are wayward and not in the interests of all consumers. So long as neutrals who visit here can see what you're up to - that's good enough for me.

And to that point, suggesting that there is no way to enable ride sharing and facilitate WA'ability levels at the same time is a complete fallacy.

Spook_ie · 18-06-2019 6:13pm

makeorbrake wrote: »

I have no intention of going down that road. As an aside with your route analogy, I don't have to worry much about route choice - the tech decides (based on real time conditions) and its not set up to screw the passenger.

I have no intention of convincing either of you two (and a few others here) that the views you're expressing are wayward and not in the interests of all consumers. So long as neutrals who visit here can see what you're up to - that's good enough for me.

And to that point, suggesting that there is no way to enable ride sharing and facilitate WA'ability levels at the same time is a complete fallacy.

Yet again you can't or won't give any other option that facilitates ride-sharing and improving WAV availability, you just keep spouting the same old words in a different order. You don't have to convince me of anything just show that you actually have an idea of how the regulatory authorities can square the circle. To be honest, you are leaving little option but to conclude you haven't a clue how to do it.

makeorbrake · 18-06-2019 6:28pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

Yet again you can't or won't give any other option that facilitates ride-sharing and improving WAV availability, you just keep spouting the same old words in a different order. You don't have to convince me of anything just show that you actually have an idea of how the regulatory authorities can square the circle. To be honest, you are leaving little option but to conclude you haven't a clue how to do it.

You seem to think I'm under some sort of obligation in terms of my participation in the discussion here (as in - on your terms only). That's not the case.

It's my view that it is yourself and a few others that are coming out with repeating the very same stuff. You can disagree as you wish with that - but others can make up their own minds.

The bottom line here is that far more adverse problems are solved every day of the week around the planet than simply facilitating both ride sharing and WA. Putting a measure in place that snuffs out one is not a necessary action to take. You can claim otherwise (as no doubt you will) but I don't agree.

You can claim that the two things couldn't possibly be addressed and facilitated together (to the point that both are enabled) - and when you do that, you will lack any credibility in the eyes of ordinary consumers.

Spook_ie · 18-06-2019 6:33pm

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makeorbrake · 18-06-2019 6:36pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

Real ride sharing, wonder if it'll work/take off

That is not REAL ride sharing. Real ride sharing would enable use of the existing car fleet - not existing taxi's.

Other than that, Uber have been running Uber Pool in certain markets for quite some time now. They tend to do it where the market is big enough to support it i.e. where it makes sense for them to deploy it. And with that, it's a far more efficient use of transportation.

Spook_ie · 18-06-2019 6:39pm

makeorbrake wrote: »

You seem to think I'm under some sort of obligation in terms of my participation in the discussion here (as in - on your terms only). That's not the case.

It's my view that it is yourself and a few others that are coming out with repeating the very same stuff. You can disagree as you wish with that - but others can make up their own minds.

The bottom line here is that far more adverse problems are solved every day of the week around the planet than simply facilitating both ride sharing and WA. Putting a measure in place that snuffs out one is not a necessary action to take. You can claim otherwise (as no doubt you will) but I don't agree.

You can claim that the two things couldn't possibly be addressed and facilitated together (to the point that both are enabled) - and when you do that, you will lack any credibility in the eyes of ordinary consumers.

I'm claiming it's what's already on the table, as linked to by previous posts showing it to be government policy to increase the number of WAVs, I would just like to know how you think allowing ride sharing is going to facilitate that, maybe it's been done elsewhere, maybe you have an idea of how to do it. I certainly don't see how the two are compatible but you say you know different, so divulge.

Uber

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