Passed speed camera and pulled by Gardai

893bet · 19-04-2019 4:44pm

Del2005 wrote: »

That was 5 separate offences. The OP was speeding and caught twice for the same offence.

Same principal. No opportunity between offences to change behaviour.

Del2005 · 19-04-2019 6:41pm

893bet wrote: »

Same principal. No opportunity between offences to change behaviour.

There's only one offence here though, the OP admits that they were speeding when they past the Gardai and were still speeding going past the van.. The other person speed past on 5 separate days.

Roanmore · 20-04-2019 3:44pm

XsApollo wrote: »

It’s written somewhere on their site , I’ll dig it out.
I didn’t make it up and I’m nearly sure I read it somewhere official.

EDIT: I dunno know if they have a site , i remember reading it tho. :-D

EDIT 2 : can’t find anything on that.
And I’m going to sleep. Maybe I dreamt it.

You are correct, there is a great post by Ironclaw on the motoring forum explaining the situation. Yes the van can detect up to a km away but the photo is take approx 20m from the van depending on the width of the road.

Thewife · 20-04-2019 10:52pm

The problem you’ll have when trying to appeal tickets for the same offence is , the fine from the Garda and fine from the van will most like state the location as M1 southbound between exit 7 and 8 for example . Because both tickets will state the same location but there could be 10 miles between the exits you would need to prove you weren’t caught twice on different parts of that road . for example Garda could have pulled you over just by exit 7 and you could have got back in your car to continue your journey and continue to speed and get caught again by the van 10 miles down the road but technically in the same location , you would need to prove this was not the case . If you had taken a photo when you were pulled in to show the Garda car and the speed van within the same photo then you would have a very good chance of getting 1 of them cancelled as technically they were the same offence in the same location !

Dave147 · 20-04-2019 11:43pm

Rubberchikken wrote:

i think it would be perfectly fair to charge you twice. you're driving in a 100k zone and you choose to drive at 120. tough.

The holier than thou brigade have arrived.

cameramonkey · 21-04-2019 12:22am

SVI40 wrote: »

According to a pal in the Roads Policing, they have a range of 1Km. Naturally, it will depend on traffic and how close cars are to each other, but on an empty road, 1Km.

would the type of camera they use be able to pick up a car registration at 1000 meters. i doubt it.

Credit Checker Moose · 21-04-2019 12:27am

LTI 20-20 has a range of 999m. It doesn't take a photo.

kirving · 21-04-2019 12:42am

BuzzMcdonnell wrote: »

Explain how it’s perfectly fair?
Yes I broke the law, hardly crime of the century though.
It’s hardly fair to get 6 penalty points for that.

Because no matter how honest you are on this site, there's always going to be someone who has never ever done anything wrong in their life, to tell you how wrong you are.

I just put them on the block list.

I think you could have a case in it being classified as one offence. What's to stop 4 Gard's parking on four consecutive M50 on ramps and disqualifying anyone who sets their cruise control to 110km/h?

SVI40 · 21-04-2019 8:18am

cameramonkey wrote: »

would the type of camera they use be able to pick up a car registration at 1000 meters. i doubt it.

From the UK RAC website:

Mobile speed camera FAQs
How far away does a mobile speed camera work from?
On a straight section of road the typical range for a mobile speed camera is two miles.

They can’t, however, record around bends or over brows of hills.

Irishphotodesk · 21-04-2019 8:30am

Kevin Irving wrote: »

Because no matter how honest you are on this site, there's always going to be someone who has never ever done anything wrong in their life, to tell you how wrong you are.

I just put them on the block list.

I think you could have a case in it being classified as one offence. What's to stop 4 Gard's parking on four consecutive M50 on ramps and disqualifying anyone who sets their cruise control to 110km/h?

There is nothing to stop them from doing so, there was a setup a few years ago where Gardai would be placed approx 5-10km along same stretch of road (changes from motorway to dual carriage way) , most people who speed, might recognize the “normal speed van zone” and would increase their speed, if a person was caught twice (it could be argued they deserved it, or it could be argued that it was the same speeding offense), the Gardai were looking at it from a point that there was a higher chance to catch someone speeding after a “speed trap”.

I’m not sure if this tactic is still employed or considered - but I do recall some public opinion being against it (might even be some news reports of people caught speeding twice on same stretch of road, most people viewed it as money making.

The logical inference is that if there is a high chance of getting caught and punished- there is a chance less people will take the risk, as for the OP, he could challenge one of the speeding offenses, but there is the risk of 3pts becoming 5points, so his total would potentially move to 8points - a costly days driving, it will no doubt encourage the OP to be extremely cautious with their speed, if they are to receive 6-8points for one “drive”.

OP - do you think you are more conscious of your speed and speed zones since starting this thread?

dermiek · 21-04-2019 8:52am

When you get the speeding notification in the post from the speed van, and the Garda one could be similar, not sure, there are details of how to email them if you think its in error or think you have a case for leniency. You can contact them then and state the case, they will answer promptly either way. They may cancel one, they may not. You should get a reason from them though as to why not and you can then decide whether to pay or bring the appeal further.

As someone stated, the Gardai could have been, and most likely were, parked 1 or 2 kms before the speed van and it took that distance to catch you. Since you didn't say you spotted them, even as you passed, you could just have been unlucky that both were there. It's not fair, and if it was me I'd be sorely p1s$ed off, but i can see how they would make it two offences.

either way, good luck with it, hope it works out and keep us informed.

you may, of course, hear nothing from the speed van. I believe but have no proof that you have to be very close for the camera to photograph you due to the angle its pointing.

[Deleted User] · 21-04-2019 9:45am

OP, I'd imagine the best thing to do is use the date/time of both incidents to demonstrate is what the same offence.

You can't be done twice for the one offence. Did you mention the speed van to the Garda? I presume he seen it?

I always assumed Gardai are informed of the location of speed vans and don't operate speed checks in the same area? I've personally passed many a speed van, and many a garda car with speedgun out, but never anywhere near each other.

BaronVon · 21-04-2019 11:41am

As stated earlier, if you commit multiple penalty point offences at the same time, you'll only get points for the highest single penalty point offence, in this case 3 penalty points.

However, as the guard chased you, he was obviously at standstill when he clocked you, so he was probably 2-3 kms away from the speed van. What's important here is townlands. If the GoSafe and Guard were in 2 different townlands, then it could well be argued that they are separate offences.

Also, most likely, the guard's ticket will arrive much sooner than the GoSafe one, as apparently there are huge delays processing GoSafe tickets cos of all the people being caught at the M7 roadworks in Naas. So keep a copy of the 1st ticket in case a second one arrives, but I'd be of the opinion you'd be on thin ice if the offences are recorded in separate townlands.

Credit Checker Moose · 21-04-2019 11:46am

The townlands thing has been challenged successfully in the past. There was a famous case in Waterford where a Garda chased a driver over 4 different townlands and attempted to charge him 4 times for the same offence. The entire case was thrown out of court.

MrFresh · 21-04-2019 1:09pm

Thewife wrote: »

The problem you’ll have when trying to appeal tickets for the same offence is , the fine from the Garda and fine from the van will most like state the location as M1 southbound between exit 7 and 8 for example . Because both tickets will state the same location but there could be 10 miles between the exits you would need to prove you weren’t caught twice on different parts of that road . for example Garda could have pulled you over just by exit 7 and you could have got back in your car to continue your journey and continue to speed and get caught again by the van 10 miles down the road but technically in the same location , you would need to prove this was not the case . If you had taken a photo when you were pulled in to show the Garda car and the speed van within the same photo then you would have a very good chance of getting 1 of them cancelled as technically they were the same offence in the same location !

Would the state not be the one that has to prove that it was two separate offences? I wonder if the op simply appealed the fixed charge through the normal channels would one be cancelled?

BuzzMcdonnell · 21-04-2019 1:53pm

Irishphotodesk wrote: »

There is nothing to stop them from doing so, there was a setup a few years ago where Gardai would be placed approx 5-10km along same stretch of road (changes from motorway to dual carriage way) , most people who speed, might recognize the “normal speed van zone” and would increase their speed, if a person was caught twice (it could be argued they deserved it, or it could be argued that it was the same speeding offense), the Gardai were looking at it from a point that there was a higher chance to catch someone speeding after a “speed trap”.

I’m not sure if this tactic is still employed or considered - but I do recall some public opinion being against it (might even be some news reports of people caught speeding twice on same stretch of road, most people viewed it as money making.

The logical inference is that if there is a high chance of getting caught and punished- there is a chance less people will take the risk, as for the OP, he could challenge one of the speeding offenses, but there is the risk of 3pts becoming 5points, so his total would potentially move to 8points - a costly days driving, it will no doubt encourage the OP to be extremely cautious with their speed, if they are to receive 6-8points for one “drive”.

OP - do you think you are more conscious of your speed and speed zones since starting this thread?

I’m extremely conscious of my speed and speed zones since starting this thread. I have been driving for five years and will have my full license for 2 years this July, meaning that until then my threshold for penalty points is 7 rather than 12.

I’ve been watching my speed and road behavior at all times to make sure I don’t get more points and a ban.

BuzzMcdonnell · 21-04-2019 1:55pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

OP, I'd imagine the best thing to do is use the date/time of both incidents to demonstrate is what the same offence.

You can't be done twice for the one offence. Did you mention the speed van to the Garda? I presume he seen it?

I always assumed Gardai are informed of the location of speed vans and don't operate speed checks in the same area? I've personally passed many a speed van, and many a garda car with speedgun out, but never anywhere near each other.

I completely clogged up when pulled by the Garda and only afterwards when back on the road did I remember the speed van. Ive no idea if gardai are aware of the location of gosafe vans

BuzzMcdonnell · 21-04-2019 1:56pm

infacteh wrote: »

As stated earlier, if you commit multiple penalty point offences at the same time, you'll only get points for the highest single penalty point offence, in this case 3 penalty points.

However, as the guard chased you, he was obviously at standstill when he clocked you, so he was probably 2-3 kms away from the speed van. What's important here is townlands. If the GoSafe and Guard were in 2 different townlands, then it could well be argued that they are separate offences.

Also, most likely, the guard's ticket will arrive much sooner than the GoSafe one, as apparently there are huge delays processing GoSafe tickets cos of all the people being caught at the M7 roadworks in Naas. So keep a copy of the 1st ticket in case a second one arrives, but I'd be of the opinion you'd be on thin ice if the offences are recorded in separate townlands.

Thanks, I’ll make sure to keep a copy of the ticket to see if the town lands match up.

Thewife · 22-04-2019 11:45pm

The state would have to prove that it was two separate offences .however in order for the state to be asked to prove this , the defendant would have to appeal the tickets on the grounds that they are both for the same offence , so it wouldn’t certainly be easier if the defendant had taken some picture evidence possibly showing the distance from the Garda car and the go safe van . Chances are once the defendant has received both tickets if he rings up the central office and explains they may cancel one of them .

MrFresh wrote: »

Would the state not be the one that has to prove that it was two separate offences? I wonder if the op simply appealed the fixed charge through the normal channels would one be cancelled?

rock22 · 23-04-2019 9:03am

Would the time be recorded on the fixed fine from the Garda?
If it matched the time on the speed camera ticket then it would support the OP that it was a single offence.

bucketybuck · 23-04-2019 9:19am

rock22 wrote: »

Would the time be recorded on the fixed fine from the Garda?
If it matched the time on the speed camera ticket then it would support the OP that it was a single offence.

It won't be exactly the same time to the very second, so if in court how would the OP prove that it wasn't two different offences?

For example, if the guards had stopped him first, and then when they let him go the OP took off down the road at speed could he really claim that was still the same offence? If you are caught speeding are you allowed to speed for the rest of your journey just because you already got caught once?

The OP should tread carefully perhaps, certain judges might assume that he was somebody who got caught but didn't give a toss and went right back to speeding again. They would want to make sure their story and sequence of events is airtight.

JimsAlterEgo · 23-04-2019 9:22am

bucketybuck wrote: »

It won't be exactly the same time to the very second, so if in court how would the OP prove that it wasn't two different offences?

For example, if the guards had stopped him first, and then when they let him go the OP took off down the road at speed could he really claim that was still the same offence? If you are caught speeding are you allowed to speed for the rest of your journey just because you already got caught once?

The OP should tread carefully perhaps, certain judges might assume that he was somebody who got caught but didn't give a toss and went right back to speeding again. They would want to make sure their story and sequence of events is airtight.

it could easily be seen as fVck it, I was caught by a camera, so theres no point in slowing now

Donald Trump · 23-04-2019 9:30am

BuzzMcdonnell wrote: »

Sorry, what I mean is I braked about 50 meters before the van, and immediately after that I saw the gardai behind me with blues on. It was 200 meters down the road that I was pulled into the hard shoulder speaking with the Garda.

Simple solution. Tell the judge that the guards made you speed by chasing you with their blue lights and sirens blaring. Only for that you would never have gone so fast past the speed van.

And sure you had no idea if it was you or not that the guards were trying to chase....but given that you had a dead body and a kilo of coke in the boot, you weren't going to take any chances. Plus, you always make bad decisions and panic quickly after a few pints.

Mr. Incognito · 23-04-2019 10:49am

Just wait it out.

You will have a choice to eat the additional points and fine or go to Court.

At Court its up to the judge on the Day.

Technically they are separate offences so yes, you can be done twice.

However the judge might strike it out or if he takes a dislike to you could increase it.

Its a lottery unfortunately and you were just unlucky to have been speeding in a spot with a van and a guard.

reg114 · 23-04-2019 11:51am

I would expect that if the OP received a double penalty for the exact same offence, the Op would understandably win an appeal in court.

As an aside Im a big believer in having hidden cameras. There really is little point in having a camera that's visible enough that people can slow on approach and then speed up afterwards, as is always the case. With hidden cameras people would not have the same degree of confidence that they could speed and not get caught. Speed is still the overriding factor in the majority of road traffic incidents, I look forward to the proposed speed limiters being applied by car manufacturers to all new cars sold in the eu in the next couple of years.

Mr. Incognito · 23-04-2019 3:17pm

reg114 wrote: »

I would expect that if the OP received a double penalty for the exact same offence, the Op would understandably win an appeal in court.

As an aside Im a big believer in having hidden cameras. There really is little point in having a camera that's visible enough that people can slow on approach and then speed up afterwards, as is always the case. With hidden cameras people would not have the same degree of confidence that they could speed and not get caught. Speed is still the overriding factor in the majority of road traffic incidents, I look forward to the proposed speed limiters being applied by car manufacturers to all new cars sold in the eu in the next couple of years.

Only the OP can testify it was the same offence.

The time on the two tickets is unlikely to be contemporaneous.

I dont believe they are the same offence.

rock22 · 24-04-2019 8:57am

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

The time on the two tickets is unlikely to be contemporaneous.

I dont believe they are the same offence.

Why do you say that "The time on the two tickets is unlikely to be contemporaneous" ?

Why do you not "...believe they are the same offence" ?

Passed speed camera and pulled by Gardai

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