DB fare increase

howiya · 05-12-2018 12:25am

bk wrote: »

Contactless is Leap.

The physical Leap card is just the tip of the iceberg, most of the cost would be all the infrastructure underneath. Ticket machines, wifi/3G, back office account systems, servers, websites, etc.

You'd still need all that even with contactless payments. Contactless cards would simply act as a sort of virtual leap card. When you tag-on with a contact-less card, you wouldn't be immediately charged, after all things like daily and weekly capping still get worked out by the Leap accounting systems, etc.

And of course you'd still need Leap cards for child/student cards, Free Travel Cards, Monthly/Annual taxsaver cards, etc.

There's 15-20% cost savings available to the NTA as a result of increasing usage of an open loop payment card versus a closed loop card such as Leap. As stated by the NTA they are planning on introducing the technology to support contactless so they should go after the savings once they do.

In 2015 Leap cost operators €7.01m. In 2017 it cost transport operators €8.45m.

Money that could be better spent rather than lining payzone's pockets

Qrt · 05-12-2018 1:12am

devnull wrote: »

UAlso 3 stages isn't necessarily a very short journey, for most routes yes but for some routes it can be a few km, which isn't going to be possible for everyone to walk.

Exactly, it's a three stage journey for me to the bank, but it's a 35 minute walk...

the_syco · 05-12-2018 1:42am

As the Leap card allows max weekly cost, can't see people wanting it gone.

TBH, once a flat fare is introduced, most people will just move to Leap.

In Toronto, flat fare is CAD$3.25, but said flat fare can be used in one direction with bus/subway/streetcar (but not trains). It'd be like being able to use your bus ticket to hop on the LUAS, and then another bus, if all done within 2 hours.

Busman Paddy Lasty · 05-12-2018 7:35am

howiya wrote: »

There's 15-20% cost savings available to the NTA as a result of increasing usage of an open loop payment card versus a closed loop card such as Leap. As stated by the NTA they are planning on introducing the technology to support contactless so they should go after the savings once they do.

In 2015 Leap cost operators €7.01m. In 2017 it cost transport operators €8.45m.

Money that could be better spent rather than lining payzone's pockets

Tap payment with a credit card would be very convenient. Could it support weekly capping etc and be feasible to operate alongside Leap for a period however?

Possibly no incentive for the regular customer to switch from an auto top-up Leap either.

cdaly_ · 05-12-2018 10:48am

Stephen15 wrote: »

People should encouraged to take trips by sustainable methods which includes walking and cycling aswell as public transport. I find in Ireland there is a bit of pheonomenon of driving or taking the bus for trip which can easily be done on foot.

bk wrote: »

What folks are calling a short fare here, is basically the equivalent of a 10 minute walk.

Agreed but nobody walks anymore.

vrusinov · 05-12-2018 11:53am

Busman Paddy Lasty wrote: »

Tap payment with a credit card would be very convenient. Could it support weekly capping etc and be feasible to operate alongside Leap for a period however?

Capping/discounts/etc seems to work with contactless in London. I think they just record all the times you tap and charge the card at the end of the day.

bk · 05-12-2018 11:57am

howiya wrote: »

There's 15-20% cost savings available to the NTA as a result of increasing usage of an open loop payment card versus a closed loop card such as Leap. As stated by the NTA they are planning on introducing the technology to support contactless so they should go after the savings once they do.

In 2015 Leap cost operators €7.01m. In 2017 it cost transport operators €8.45m.

Money that could be better spent rather than lining payzone's pockets

Where did you get this from, source?

That doesn't gel with what I know about how Leap works or how Oyster card and contactless payments work in the UK.

Contactless payments in the UK aren't open loop. Normal contactless payments in shop require a live connection to the internet to check if you have enough balance to make the payment. Doing that would be too slow on the bus. So how they implemented it in the UK, is the following:

- When you tag-on with a contactless bank card, the ticket machine records the details of your bank card, but doesn't charge you straight away.
- Overnight the buses return to depot and the ticket machine uploads the data to the backend servers.
- The backend servers then work out what you actually owe, taking into account daily and weekly capping, etc. and then do the actual charge against your card.

It is quiet a different setup to traditional contactless charges work and it required Oyster to work closely with Visa/Mastercard, etc. to allow it to be used in this manner.

I would expect contactless payments to work the same way with Leap. Certainly the slides I've seen from the NTA about the project suggest that.

So I wouldn't expect much savings. Maybe a small amount from needing less physical Leap cards, but you would still need them for child cards, etc.

I'd expect we are talking about trivial savings here, which would easily be eaten up with the extra developer and server costs needed to setup this sort of virtual account functionality.

Busman Paddy Lasty wrote: »

Tap payment with a credit card would be very convenient. Could it support weekly capping etc and be feasible to operate alongside Leap for a period however?

Yes, contactless cards on London Bus support daily and weekly capping and 60 minute transfers. As long as you use the same contactless card each time.

It will definitely work alongside Leap cards, they are basically a version of the same technology. In London you can use either contactless cards or Oyster cards.

I also expect Leap cards will never go away. They will always be needed at least for child/student/free travel pass/monthly/annual cards.

loyatemu · 05-12-2018 12:23pm

how complicated is a Leap card reader - could they be bolted onto the bus poles? A solar-powered unit with a 4g uplink built in, shouldn't be too expensive. Then a tag-on tag-off system could be introduced without causing dwell time problems.

bk · 05-12-2018 12:27pm

loyatemu wrote: »

how complicated is a Leap card reader - could they be bolted onto the bus poles? A solar-powered unit with a 4g uplink built in, shouldn't be too expensive. Then a tag-on tag-off system could be introduced without causing dwell time problems.

There are something like 7000 bus poles. It is possible, but would likely cost far too much and would need lots of costly maintenance to deal with vandalism, etc.

Plus you would need a big increase in ticket inspectors.

If you wanted to go with this model, better to just do it like how they do it in Germany, Poland, etc. 3/4 doors on the bus, 3/4 validators on the bus, you get on any door and validate at the nearest validator on the bus.

AlekSmart · 05-12-2018 1:00pm

bk wrote: »

There are something like 7000 bus poles. It is possible, but would likely cost far too much and would need lots of costly maintenance to deal with vandalism, etc.

Plus you would need a big increase in ticket inspectors.

If you wanted to go with this model, better to just do it like how they do it in Germany, Poland, etc. 3/4 doors on the bus, 3/4 validators on the bus, you get on any door and validate at the nearest validator on the bus.

All of the NTA specified and owned post 2012 Double Door fleet,have been pre-wired for Smart Card Validators at each door (2 at the Centre Door).

This does not guarantee the the adoption of T-on/T-off,but it sure increases the probability of it.

It is included in the planning for the BusConnects programme,but as yet,has not been decided upon.

Ticketing Systems and Fares

• Without changing the fares structure, moving to cashless travel and investing in new ticketing systems, the full benefits of the BusConnects project wouldn’t be delivered
• Fares will be made simpler, and the financial penalty of taking a second bus for one journey removed.
•Will consider a single fare structure but more likely will move to a tag-on and tag-off arrangement
• This will remove the current major delay at bus stops where a high proportion of passengers still have to interact with the driver, even when paying by Leap Card
• BusConnects will incorporate the latest developments in accountbased ticketing technology, potentially allowing use of credit / debit cards or mobile devices as a convenient means of payment. This will also facilitate other transport payments such as parking facilities & bicycle hire.

Personally,I would favour the Single Flat-Fare option,as from an operational perspective it is the most suited for Dublins operations,however I am also aware that from an Economical and Accountancy perspective it carries a penalty.

Not for the first time in this domain,it will come down to How much ? and Who pays ?.

punisher5112 · 05-12-2018 1:36pm

2012 GT model came with poles at centre door to facilitate the machines but no others have since been equipped the same.

bk · 05-12-2018 2:23pm

Will consider a single fare structure but more likely will move to a tag-on and tag-off arrangement

That is a strange one, the moves being made by the NTA around ticketing would more indicate movement towards a flat fare (or short + flat).

I mean that is already what they did with the child fare this year, it is now flat.

And the way they merged the 4 to 7 stage fare and 8 to 13 stage fare into one fare and now are bringing the 4 to 13 and over 13 much closer would all indicate movement towards a fixed fare.

The most recent NTA fare determination had this to say:

The BusConnects programme for Dublin will see the transformation of Dublin’s bus system, to ensure journeys made by bus will be fast, reliable, punctual, convenient and affordable. Part of the BusConnects plan is revamping of the fare system to provide a simpler fare structure, allowing seamless movement between different transport services without financial penalty. To deliver on this part of the programme, a revised fare structure is required for public transport in the city which will support seamless movement between different public transport services and modes without a financial penalty. The fares determination, presented in this report, builds on last year’s determination by taking another step toward this new fare structure. For most services in the Dublin area, Bus Connects envisages a two fare system comprising a short distance fare
and a 90 minute fare. The 90 minute fare will cover any journeys taken within 90 minutes of the
first journey. These journeys can be taken on Dublin Bus, Luas, Go Ahead Dublin services, Iarnród Éireann DART services and zones 1 to 4 on Short Hop Zone commuter services, or any
combination of these services within the Dublin area. To achieve a balanced transition to this two fare structure,it is necessary to adjust a number of fares for Dublin Bus, Iarnród Éireann, GoAhead Dublin and Luas this year to enable a move towards this simpler fare structure over the coming years.

My bolding.

Unless by tag-off, they mean tag-off just for the short fare and otherwise a flat fare (tag-on) for the 90 minute.

It would seem silly to just have two fares, short and 90 and force both tag-on and tag-off for both.

Perhaps they are still undecided, though the moves over the last few years certainly seem to be going in this direction.

punisher5112 · 05-12-2018 2:34pm

Still 2 leap child fares...

School fare €0.80 from start to 7pm and €1 after that.

bk · 05-12-2018 2:45pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Still 2 leap child fares...

School fare €0.80 from start to 7pm and €1 after that.

But they are both flat fares. They are just timed based.

I suppose when we talk about flat fare, we are talking based on distance and if you need driver interaction or not.

Previously there were two different child fares based on distance after 7pm. Now there is just one. A child doesn't have they interact with the driver, they just tag-on on the right hand validator and the machine automatically works out which fare to charge based on the time.

I mean you could do that too with the 90 minute ticket. It could be 2.40 if you start the journey during peak hours and say €2 if you started the journey off peak, to help encoruage people to use off peak instead of on peak. Lots of cities do that or similar.

punisher5112 · 05-12-2018 2:47pm

bk wrote: »

But they are both flat fares. They are just timed based.

I suppose when we talk about flat fare, we are talking based on distance and if you need driver interaction or not.

Previously there were two different child fares based on distance after 7pm. Now there is just one. A child doesn't have they interact with the driver, they just tag-on on the right hand validator and the machine automatically works out which fare to charge based on the time.

Correct but many still come to us even during the school time ...

Some do be quite confused.

It's so much better now though as they as you say can always scan at the door now.

Only issue now is adults using these now.

bk · 05-12-2018 2:54pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Correct but many still come to us even during the school time ...

Some do be quite confused.

It's so much better now though as they as you say can always scan at the door now.

Only issue now is adults using these now.

Yep, like anything new, it takes people a while to catch on, but they will eventually. I'm sure some, if not most drivers will just tell them to use the door validator and eventually most will get use to it.

The adults using them :mad:

If they do move to a tag-off system, then hopefully they can get rid of the door validator and just have the one next to the driver like London and that might help somewhat with that. Though I'd expect it will be a few years before we get to that point.

Stephen15 · 05-12-2018 2:55pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Correct but many still come to us even during the school time ...

Some do be quite confused.

It's so much better now though as they as you say can always scan at the door now.

Only issue now is adults using these now.

Also sometimes the right hand validator can at times be broken and everyone has to pay at driver although it dosen't seem to happen as much as it used to a few years ago. Happened me on a GAI bus there a few weeks ago.

punisher5112 · 05-12-2018 3:00pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Also sometimes the right hand validator can at times be broken and everyone has to pay at driver although it dosen't seem to happen as much as it used to a few years ago. Happened me on a GAI bus there a few weeks ago.

I'm having a lot of failures of the actual driver machine lately, very rare the one beside the door and usually a reset by the button now fitted on the dash this helps.

The driver one fails a lot where in most cases a red LED shows and now the machines have a reset button on the side as you use to have to Indo clips and release from it's housing base.

New machines needed badly and this is something that was and is needed years ago.

I'm getting a lot more adults with the child cards but coming to the driver to select the adult buttons and pay but I am also getting the kids can I pay for 2 but not tell you its one adult and them and this I've got a few doing a lot and I've said it to them but they continue to test it.

AlekSmart · 05-12-2018 3:21pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

2012 GT model came with poles at centre door to facilitate the machines but no others have since been equipped the same.

The initial 2012 order were not specified with the wiring fitted,this was then rectified by Wrightbus in a retrofit programme.

All dual doored deliveries since then,have the wiring installed on assembly.

Tickityboo · 05-12-2018 5:21pm

bk wrote: »

There are something like 7000 bus poles. It is possible, but would likely cost far too much and would need lots of costly maintenance to deal with vandalism, etc.

Plus you would need a big increase in ticket inspectors.

If you wanted to go with this model, better to just do it like how they do it in Germany, Poland, etc. 3/4 doors on the bus, 3/4 validators on the bus, you get on any door and validate at the nearest validator on the bus.

It would be a lot more expensive to replace all the buses with 3 and 4 door buses.

Stephen15 · 05-12-2018 5:35pm

Tickityboo wrote: »

It would be a lot more expensive to replace all the buses with 3 and 4 door buses.

And also stops would have to redesigned to accommodate them

howiya · 05-12-2018 6:16pm

bk wrote: »

Where did you get this from, source?

That doesn't gel with what I know about how Leap works or how Oyster card and contactless payments work in the UK.

Contactless payments in the UK aren't open loop. Normal contactless payments in shop require a live connection to the internet to check if you have enough balance to make the payment. Doing that would be too slow on the bus. So how they implemented it in the UK, is the following:

- When you tag-on with a contactless bank card, the ticket machine records the details of your bank card, but doesn't charge you straight away.
- Overnight the buses return to depot and the ticket machine uploads the data to the backend servers.
- The backend servers then work out what you actually owe, taking into account daily and weekly capping, etc. and then do the actual charge against your card.

It is quiet a different setup to traditional contactless charges work and it required Oyster to work closely with Visa/Mastercard, etc. to allow it to be used in this manner.

I would expect contactless payments to work the same way with Leap. Certainly the slides I've seen from the NTA about the project suggest that.

So I wouldn't expect much savings. Maybe a small amount from needing less physical Leap cards, but you would still need them for child cards, etc.

I'd expect we are talking about trivial savings here, which would easily be eaten up with the extra developer and server costs needed to setup this sort of virtual account functionality.

Yes, contactless cards on London Bus support daily and weekly capping and 60 minute transfers. As long as you use the same contactless card each time.

It will definitely work alongside Leap cards, they are basically a version of the same technology. In London you can use either contactless cards or Oyster cards.

I also expect Leap cards will never go away. They will always be needed at least for child/student/free travel pass/monthly/annual cards.

Which part do you need a source for? Figures are from the NTAs annual financial statements

prinzeugen · 06-12-2018 1:20am

Stephen15 wrote: »

Yes but Leap Cards can be topped up using cash. It's basically moving the point of cash sale from the bus to a spar or centra shop. Cashless buses in many cities across Europe long in many cases long pre-date the advent of contactless cards and NFC payments they are not exactly a new phenomenon in many cities on the continent.

In a lot of cities it used to work where you went into a newsagent and bought a ticket usually valid for 90 mins across buses, trams, metro and suburban rail and got on the bus or tram and stamped in the validator. Many of these types of system have been done away with in favour of smart cards aswell as contactless but some do still exist.

Leap is double the work. Nothing "smart" about having to queue twice. I will never get one as I doubt I will need one but if they insist on going cashless then a book of single journey tickets should be made available.

Say 10 in a book and you could keep one or two handy should you need to use public transport but don't have a Leap card.

Bit like the old card tickets DB once sold in Spars etc.. But thats too much of an old fashioned idea as it is simple and does not involve "tech".

punisher5112 · 06-12-2018 1:31am

prinzeugen wrote: »

Leap is double the work. Nothing "smart" about having to queue twice. I will never get one as I doubt I will need one but if they insist on going cashless then a book of single journey tickets should be made available.

Say 10 in a book and you could keep one or two handy should you need to use public transport but don't have a Leap card.

Bit like the old card tickets DB once sold in Spars etc.. But thats too much of an old fashioned idea as it is simple and does not involve "tech".

They won't be going back in time I'm afraid....

Bray Head · 06-12-2018 10:46am

I have a Leap card with auto-top-up that I use about ten times a year.

It's still worth having one for convenience.

Qrt · 06-12-2018 11:00am

prinzeugen wrote: »

Leap is double the work. Nothing "smart" about having to queue twice. I will never get one as I doubt I will need one but if they insist on going cashless then a book of single journey tickets should be made available.

Say 10 in a book and you could keep one or two handy should you need to use public transport but don't have a Leap card.

Bit like the old card tickets DB once sold in Spars etc.. But thats too much of an old fashioned idea as it is simple and does not involve "tech".

You couldn’t just keep a leap card “handy”?

markpb · 06-12-2018 11:32am

howiya wrote: »

In 2015 Leap cost operators €7.01m. In 2017 it cost transport operators €8.45m. Money that could be better spent rather than lining payzone's pockets

I don’t think you understand how Leap works at all! The operating cost of Leap does not go to Payzone. It goes to DXC (previously HP Enterprise) who operate the back end software, maintain the website, staff the call centre, liaise with the NTA, provide the financial settlement and reconciliation and other stuff. There’s another contract for operating the taxsaver scheme, I presume the operators have to contribute to that too. There also an ongoing hardware replacement cost as well, I’m not sure if that’s included in the 8.45m you mentioned.

Payzone are only responsible for the retail sales and online card acceptance and if you think they earned almost 9m from doing that, I’d love to have some of what you’re smoking!

howiya wrote: »

There's 15-20% cost savings available to the NTA as a result of increasing usage of an open loop payment card versus a closed loop card such as Leap.

Where did you get those figures? They sound a little optimistic to me. When they move to EMV, there will still be a back office, still be a call centre, still be a retail channel, still be a website, still need staff to mange the finances and you can be sure the banks will continue to charge MSC on the card transactions. There will also be a financial risk for declined transactions or disputed transactions, someone will have to pay for that.

daheff · 06-12-2018 11:34am

prinzeugen wrote: »

I also believe that under EU law, its illegal to charge more for using a certain type of payment.

While you are probably correct, you'll find the the cash fare is the full fare, and the leap card is a 'discounted' fare to get around this.

markpb · 06-12-2018 11:44am

daheff wrote: »

While you are probably correct, you'll find the the cash fare is the full fare, and the leap card is a 'discounted' fare to get around this.

If that was the case, everyone would use that loophole to work around the law. I could be wrong but I doubt the people who draft EU laws are completely incompetent!

cdaly_ · 06-12-2018 2:10pm

markpb wrote: »

If that was the case, everyone would use that loophole to work around the law. I could be wrong but I doubt the people who draft EU laws are completely incompetent!

I'm pretty sure they do. You'll find most utilities offer discounts for paying by direct debit and for paperless billing. The direct debit 'discount' is most certainly payment method discrimination worked around...

DB fare increase

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