Are you still using turf?

d8491prj5boyvg · 10-07-2019 10:32am

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I have a bit of a query about this, and I may be completely ignorant, so I really would appreciate clarification.

On our bog, all of the interesting plant life is living not on the turf banks, but in the part of the bog that has been cut away (still plenty of peat underfoot there). The turf Bank itself is almost a monoculture of purple heather (ubiquitous across Ireland anyway) apart perhaps from some frogs and molluscs, which might be interesting i suppose.

But the grouse, the skylarks, the orchids and the cotton, all of the really interesting stuff lives in the adjacent wilderness which is bog that has been cut already. Not much lives on the turf Bank. Almost every bog I've been to looks the same way.

Again, I'll gladly be corrected here. I assume I am wrong, because that's what the experts are indicating, but I'd appreciate some clarification.

Also, just to clarify something for any city dwellers, when you cut turf, the part of the bog you cut is still a bog. You can't farm it. It's utter wilderness for most of the year, and a vibrant ecosystem. It's not like it reverts to arable land or anything like that (draining bogs is a whole other issue, and is inexcusable)

That is because only the part that is undisturbed can support any sort of habitat. Unfortunately the habitat on the bank has already been destroyed, although stopping can help regenerate some biodiversity but a shadow of what was there before.

d8491prj5boyvg · 10-07-2019 10:35am

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Why would you be lucky to own a bog, these days?

"How much of your land is in bog?" is a compulsory question for any marriage contract to proceed, in my hometown. A lady with nothing to her name but sphagnum moss and thousands of frogs won't be walking down the aisle in Borrisokane any time soon.

We're talking about turf for fuel. The romantic implications are off topic.

Graces7 · 10-07-2019 10:35am

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I have a bit of a query about this, and I may be completely ignorant, so I really would appreciate clarification.

On our bog, all of the interesting plant life is living not on the turf banks, but in the part of the bog that has been cut away (still plenty of peat underfoot there). The turf Bank itself is almost a monoculture of purple heather (ubiquitous across Ireland anyway) apart perhaps from some frogs and molluscs, which might be interesting i suppose.

But the grouse, the skylarks, the orchids and the cotton, all of the really interesting stuff lives in the adjacent wilderness which is bog that has been cut already. Not much lives on the turf Bank. Almost every bog I've been to looks the same way.

Again, I'll gladly be corrected here. I assume I am wrong, because that's what the experts are indicating, but I'd appreciate some clarification.

Also, just to clarify something for any city dwellers, when you cut turf, the part of the bog you cut is still a bog. You can't farm it. It's utter wilderness for most of the year, and a vibrant ecosystem. It's not like it reverts to arable land or anything like that (draining bogs is a whole other issue, and is inexcusable)

Wonderful post; thank you

If you come to Mayo and drive from say Ballycroy through Bangor Erris then to Belmullet, you will see acres and acres of sheer open bog that no one can touch. Takes the breath away the sheer beauty of it.

Graces7 · 10-07-2019 10:43am

Caroline Obedient Rivalry wrote: »

That is because only the part that is undisturbed can support any sort of habitat. Unfortunately the habitat on the bank has already been destroyed, although stopping can help regenerate some biodiversity but a shadow of what was there before.

See

"On our bog, all of the interesting plant life is living not on the turf banks, but in the part of the bog that has been cut away (still plenty of peat underfoot there)."

10-07-2019 10:44am

Caroline Obedient Rivalry wrote: »

That is because only the part that is undisturbed can support any sort of habitat.

Im sorry but that's clearly untrue. Anyone who has ever set foot on a working bog knows that to be untrue.

There may be some mosses and snails that will only live on the untouched part of a bog, but I don't know of any. That's what I'm asking.

d8491prj5boyvg · 10-07-2019 10:45am

Graces7 wrote: »

See

"On our bog, all of the interesting plant life is living not on the turf banks, but in the part of the bog that has been cut away (still plenty of peat underfoot there)."

??

The point here is that there is no habitat on something that is being disturbed constantly. Left alone, there will be a habitat. The part of the bog that has been used already is regenerating. A shadow of what it once was but better than the wasteland caused by actively being cut

d8491prj5boyvg · 10-07-2019 10:47am

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Im sorry but that's clearly untrue. Anyone who has ever set foot on a working bog knows that to be untrue.

There may be some mosses and snails that will only live on the untouched part of a bog, but I don't know of any. That's what I'm asking.

You're contradicting yourself now.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote:

Not much lives on the turf Bank. Almost every bog I've been to looks the same way.

Ubbquittious · 10-07-2019 11:08am

I never burnt much turf until last year. I get it cheap now since I moved to Kerry. Love the smell of it.

Markcheese · 10-07-2019 11:09am

Caroline Obedient Rivalry wrote: »

??

The point here is that there is no habitat on something that is being disturbed constantly. Left alone, there will be a habitat. The part of the bog that has been used already is regenerating. A shadow of what it once was but better than the wasteland caused by actively being cut

There's a bit of truth in both, the uncut area is probably all Heather because of draining the bog to allow it to be cut, so not all that natural, and definitely not an active "growing" bog...
The cut away area is more or less down to the water table, so is probably restoring itself, somewhat, (plus you'd get different "pioneer" species in a disturbed area, which would allow for some more biodiversity..
Its the filling in of the drains that'll allow the bog to become a live, growing habitat once more,
And not everyone is gonna like that...

Alf Veedersane · 10-07-2019 11:10am

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

But do those snails result in the blanket stoppage of all development in that area? It is frankly a bit ridiculous that people are being told they have to maintain a habitat, yet we have sprawling cities, some of which are expanding over bog, and there is no similar issue...

The snails resulted in the delay of several years until appropriate measures were put in place to mitigate the impact on the snails and their habitat.

Saying "don't touch our bogs because cities" is whataboutery. Developments are subject to an Environmental Impact Assessment.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

The compensation schemes are garbage to be honest. If they want to dictate on said lands they should CPO them and pay a rate that reflects the value of these places.

The value to the people cutting turf on them is for fuel. ergo the compensation scheme more than covers the cost of fuel.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

As regards people from overseas, I believe there was some interaction with european bigwigs in the initial move away from cutting turf, going back a good few years now... This is what I was referring to.

There are European directives on EIAs. The NPWS study the bogs and determine what bogs should be designated an SAC or NHA.

10-07-2019 11:24am

Caroline Obedient Rivalry wrote: »

You're contradicting yourself now.

Im not. I'm distinguishing between the bank and the cutaway part.

The turf bank itself isn't very interesting, in my view. But there probably are species there that don't live elsewhere on the bog. I just don't know what they are, and that's why I am asking.

Also, a bog isnt constantly being disturbed the process of cutting and saving turf only takes up about 6 weeks in the year, assuming only one harvest (which is all we'd be doing, for example)

d8491prj5boyvg · 10-07-2019 11:30am

The ecosystem effects were explained very well by Markcheese, I'm not an ecologist

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Also, a bog isnt constantly being disturbed the process of cutting and saving turf only takes up about 6 weeks in the year, assuming only one harvest (which is all we'd be doing, for example)

That is constant. Flora and fauna don't go on holidays for those 6 weeks! They are killed and must regenerate. Surely you can understand that.

Markcheese · 10-07-2019 12:32pm

Caroline Obedient Rivalry wrote: »

The ecosystem effects were explained very well by Markcheese, I'm not an ecologist

That is constant. Flora and fauna don't go on holidays for those 6 weeks! They are killed and must regenerate. Surely you can understand that.

I'm not an ecologist (ór any other science background either) either, I'm winging it..
But limited disturbance to an area can be benifical to biodiversity, (think digging over a section of ground and different plants springing up as a result.. Or forest fires allowing new growth , not always pretty though,

Graces7 · 10-07-2019 12:38pm

Ubbquittious wrote: »

I never burnt much turf until last year. I get it cheap now since I moved to Kerry. Love the smell of it.

Kerry turf is grand... But I think Mayo is even better...

Graces7 · 10-07-2019 12:40pm

Caroline Obedient Rivalry wrote: »

??

The point here is that there is no habitat on something that is being disturbed constantly. Left alone, there will be a habitat. The part of the bog that has been used already is regenerating. A shadow of what it once was but better than the wasteland caused by actively being cut

exactly what we were saying. I quoted a sentence that showed you had not clearly read the poster. It is a matter of degree; nature will always renew and often better than before.

10-07-2019 12:47pm

Caroline Obedient Rivalry wrote: »

That is constant. Flora and fauna don't go on holidays for those 6 weeks! They are killed and must regenerate. Surely you can understand that.

The Greenland goose, which likes the bog as much as I do, does exactly that, as do several other bird species who summer abroad.

I'm not sure what kind of killing spree you're referring to during the fairly short turf season.

Yes, some animals are forced to relocate to another part of a bog for a few weeks, but I'm not sure that's the biggest issue with peatland conservation tbh. If you think the homeless hare is a rough situation, wait until you hear about farming. Some people literally eat animals.

the_pen_turner · 10-07-2019 1:33pm

The small guy gutting a few tractor trailers a year is not doing any significant damage . Anyone that has sat in a big and watched all the animals knows how much life is sustained there.
One plane trip would do more harm to the environment than cutting a small bit of turf

Larger commercial cutting is different
That involves more machinery and impact on the area.
The reason for that large scale commercial cutting is largely due to bord na mona effectively stealing the bogs from the land owners and forcing them to buy turf from large contractors

How many acres of bog does bord na mona have stripped away for tilling . Probably thousands.
Look at the damage that causes compared to someone cutting the size of a small car

gozunda · 10-07-2019 1:33pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Sounds like a mare to heat these rural houses. My terrace house needs the heat on for an hour or so in the evening even on the coldest winter nights and the heat is retained.
Also when you finish destroying the bogs maybe get your septic tanks fixed too, apparently 50% of them are leaking and polluting the lands.

Is it that you have the horn for everyone not living in cities? You do know ****e is being liberally spread over Dublin bay on a regular basis yeah?

From a recent thread:

Could someone tell the Green party that not all pollution is caused by rural red-necks.
Here is a photo of the sewage plant at Dun Laoire / Rathdown this afternoon.
Anyone for a plate of Dublin Bay prawns?

And it's not just Dublin where municipal ****e is discharged untreated as part and parcel of normal disposal methods ...

'It has been estimated that raw sewage from the equivalent of 86,000 people flows into Irish waterways every day. Raw sewage which is discharged daily to surface water in 44 places around Ireland. In Cork harbour alone 5,000 tonnes of untreated sewage is pumped into the sea every day, although reportedly this volume was halved last year.

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/epa-sewage-pollution-ireland-water-13466133

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/raw-sewage-entering-water-in-44-places-around-ireland-1.3266141?mode=amp

I see turf being burned in plenty of towns around Ireland ...

d8491prj5boyvg · 10-07-2019 1:37pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

The Greenland goose, which likes the bog as much as I do, does exactly that, as do several other bird species who summer abroad.

I'm not sure what kind of killing spree you're referring to during the fairly short turf season.

Yes, some animals are forced to relocate to another part of a bog for a few weeks, but I'm not sure that's the biggest issue with peatland conservation tbh. If you think the homeless hare is a rough situation, wait until you hear about farming. Some people literally eat animals.

It's the entire ecosystem, not just large animals we can see. It's exactly like farmland. I've never heard a corncrake, despite living in the country all my life.

d8491prj5boyvg · 10-07-2019 1:37pm

the_pen_turner wrote: »

The small guy gutting a few tractor trailers a year is not doing any significant damage . Anyone that has sat in a big and watched all the animals knows how much life is sustained there.
One plane trip would do more harm to the environment than cutting a small bit of turf

Larger commercial cutting is different
That involves more machinery and impact on the area.
The reason for that large scale commercial cutting is largely due to bord na mona effectively stealing the bogs from the land owners and forcing them to buy turf from large contractors

How many acres of bog does bord na mona have stripped away for tilling . Probably thousands.
Look at the damage that causes compared to someone cutting the size of a small car

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKqCog5m5Yo

That is significant damage

10-07-2019 1:45pm

Caroline Obedient Rivalry wrote: »

It's the entire ecosystem, not just large animals we can see. It's exactly like farmland. I've never heard a corncrake, despite living in the country all my life.

Sure, all creatures great and small are important.

I'm just not convinced that turf cutting is destroying that ecosystem. It's shrinking the volume of peat underfoot, most certainly, but I'd like to understand better whether anything is actually disappearing or has gone extinct?

Walked the bog at home recently, plenty of larks and bog orchids and frolicking in the heather -- this in a bog that has been producing turf for centuries, and probably looks the same now as it did 100 years ago, or is perhaps even more diverse due to the removal of heather.

d8491prj5boyvg · 10-07-2019 1:51pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Sure, all creatures great and small are important.

I'm just not convinced that turf cutting is destroying that ecosystem. It's shrinking the volume of peat underfoot, most certainly, but I'd like to understand better whether anything is actually disappearing or has gone extinct?

Walked the bog at home recently, plenty of larks and bog orchids and frolicking in the heather -- this in a bog that has been producing turf for centuries, and probably looks the same now as it did 100 years ago, or is perhaps even more diverse due to the removal of heather.

Plenty of literature to understand the biodiversity loss, (e.g. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Marcus_Collier/publication/220048938_Protocol_for_the_Sustainable_Management_of_Peatlands_in_Ireland/links/55a6311e08ae81aec91396e9/Protocol-for-the-Sustainable-Management-of-Peatlands-in-Ireland.pdf)

Make no mistake, the bog is worse off due to being drained and peat extracted. Most of the harm occurred at the time of draining. It's not barren, it's just a shadow of what it should be.

10-07-2019 2:19pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I have a bit of a query about this, and I may be completely ignorant, so I really would appreciate clarification.

On our bog, all of the interesting plant life is living not on the turf banks, but in the part of the bog that has been cut away (still plenty of peat underfoot there). The turf Bank itself is almost a monoculture of purple heather (ubiquitous across Ireland anyway) apart perhaps from some frogs and molluscs, which might be interesting i suppose.

But the grouse, the skylarks, the orchids and the cotton, all of the really interesting stuff lives in the adjacent wilderness which is bog that has been cut already. Not much lives on the turf Bank. Almost every bog I've been to looks the same way.

Again, I'll gladly be corrected here. I assume I am wrong, because that's what the experts are indicating, but I'd appreciate some clarification.

Also, just to clarify something for any city dwellers, when you cut turf, the part of the bog you cut is still a bog. You can't farm it. It's utter wilderness for most of the year, and a vibrant ecosystem. It's not like it reverts to arable land or anything like that (draining bogs is a whole other issue, and is inexcusable)

The bog cotton you reference prefers the drier parts of bogs - it is a sign that the bog has been drained and is not growing any more. It looks the same as other bogs you have visited because they are all similarly degraded.
The heather on the bank is another sign.

We own a stretch of bog. I read an article about it from a hundred years ago where locals were complaining that the bog was so big they were afraid it would burst and cover some houses. It is totally gone now. Just scrubland left.

nthclare · 10-07-2019 2:23pm

I use turf dust sometimes as a mulch around plants, it stays dark and can turn your pink hydrangeas blue...

Its great for pathways too if you've no gravel, little gravely bits of turf, it suppresses weeds too...

Graces7 · 10-07-2019 2:55pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Sure, all creatures great and small are important.

I'm just not convinced that turf cutting is destroying that ecosystem. It's shrinking the volume of peat underfoot, most certainly, but I'd like to understand better whether anything is actually disappearing or has gone extinct?

Walked the bog at home recently, plenty of larks and bog orchids and frolicking in the heather -- this in a bog that has been producing turf for centuries, and probably looks the same now as it did 100 years ago, or is perhaps even more diverse due to the removal of heather.

and life changes. It is never static. and I agree with you.

El Tarangu · 10-07-2019 3:46pm

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

I find it hard to swallow the habitat argument as regards cutting turf. Especially so from people who have chosen to live in cities.

Living in a city is generally more environmentally-friendly than living in the countryside.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Similarly, I take issue with people from overseas telling us what to do with our blanket bogs and telling us how valuable and rare they are.

I think that the easiest way to get a buy-in from rural dwellers on the turf cutting issue would be to suspend all CAP payments until the matter was resolved; in my experience, Irish people are generally happy enough to receive the EU's input regarding the stewardship of our countryside - so long as it involves them giving us piles of cash.

Graces7 · 10-07-2019 4:36pm

El Tarangu wrote: »

Living in a city is generally more environmentally-friendly than living in the countryside.

Coal and oil pollutes as does traffic. So how d you work that one out?

10-07-2019 4:39pm

El Tarangu wrote: »

Living in a city is generally more environmentally-friendly than living in the countryside.

I think that the easiest way to get a buy-in from rural dwellers on the turf cutting issue would be to suspend all CAP payments until the matter was resolved; in my experience, Irish people are generally happy enough to receive the EU's input regarding the stewardship of our countryside - so long as it involves them giving us piles of cash.

You refer to rural "dwellers" but "our" countryside. I'm trying not to read too much into that, I'm sure you can't actually object to the fact of private property, and property ownership.

Some farmers are more responsible than others when it comes to sustainability. The same with homeowners.

But if I came out with some ludicrous statement like "we should withold pensions from the elderly until they stop heating *our* houses with crude oil", you'd probably correctly conclude that I was talking rubbish.

cgcsb · 10-07-2019 4:47pm

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

I remember the smog in Dublin in the 80s. Some people even went around wearing those “face masks” you sometimes see Asian people wearing.

The buildings in town got covered in black soot and it had an, incredibly, eerie look. I’m delighted that it hasn’t come back and was shocked to learn that the banned of “smokey” fuel wasn’t extended to the rest of the country.

Obviously, I was aware that some people “down the country” still burned whatever they wanted but I had, at least, expected they’d be liable to get a fine.

It’s pretty shocking, and damning, in this day and age that the burning of non-“smokeless” coal, and other such pollutants, is still perfectly legal.

Tulamore in the winter is a cancerous cloud of turf smoke.

cgcsb · 10-07-2019 4:53pm

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

I find it hard to swallow the habitat argument as regards cutting turf. Especially so from people who have chosen to live in cities. How many different kinds of habitats were destroyed in the building of said city? How can everyone be so concerned about these habitats, but not those? Why is human development deemed ok in one area but not another?

It's about footprint. Humans sticking to the small area of towns and cities is better than a massive sprawl of human habitation.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Similarly, I take issue with people from overseas telling us what to do with our blanket bogs and telling us how valuable and rare they are. Many of these are on private owned land so if they are that valuable then put your hand in your pocket and buy them, then you can do what you want with them... Shall we start off the bidding at around 1 million an acre? So rare and valuable after all...

:rolleyes: what despotic inward looking ignorant point of view. You can't eat gold.

Are you still using turf?

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