Irish being shoved down people's throats

endacl · 02-02-2017 1:12am

Positively Negative wrote: »

Edit: History also is a pretty useless subject to be forced to learn.

You haven't been following the news recently, I take it...?

Insect Overlord · 02-02-2017 1:21am

Positively Negative wrote: »

Edit: History also is a pretty useless subject to be forced to learn. Irish and History should be choice subjects

What age are you, if you don't mind me asking?

History is absolutely not useless.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana

Understanding how the world came to be the way it is now is vital.

Positively Negative · 02-02-2017 1:33am

I'm 29. I learned more about history outside of school than I did in it. I never had a point in my life outside of school in which I needed to be knowledgeable in history. It should be optional. Lots of people don't care about what people did 100s of years ago

Insect Overlord · 02-02-2017 1:44am

Positively Negative wrote: »

I'm 29. I learned more about history outside of school than I did in it. I never had a point in my life outside of school in which I needed to be knowledgeable in history. It should be optional. Lots of people don't care about what people did 100s of years ago

Yeah, you see, that there is the problem. Understanding the evolution of culture, law, morality, nationality, language, and technology, should not be optional.

Positively Negative · 02-02-2017 1:46am

An File wrote:

Yeah, you see, that there is the problem. Understanding the evolution of culture, law, morality, nationality, language, and technology, should not be optional.

64 million people just voted for Donald Trump, 17 million for Brexit. You think that many people knew nothing about history?

SterlingArcher · 02-02-2017 1:48am

An File wrote: »

What age are you, if you don't mind me asking?

History is absolutely not useless.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana

Understanding how the world came to be the way it is now is vital.

And yet even with plato mapping out the cycle of governance. Here we are yet again sobering up to another rinse and repeat cycle of world leadership. No closer to the heavens doomed like Atlantis. I suppose when that inevitable giant rock comes down outta the sky we can say hey at least unlike the dinosaurs we know whats coming. Yo yo thanks history.

Op you asked the question how is it forced down your throat. Answer me this. If Irish was fully optional. how would you go about teaching your class of 3? And I'm being generous here.

Perhaps if Rte made a decent show like game of thrones or vikings centered around Irish myths and legends with lots of sex scenes and characters having plenty of súnás . people could genuinely get interested.

ballsymchugh · 02-02-2017 2:01am

i actually had the feeling that english was the subject being forced down our throats! i absolutely detested it, from the poetry that meant nothing to me to doing analysis on the characters in hamlet.
looking back, i can fairly say that it was down to the teachers we had for junior cert. the english one was brutal, and was happy enough to plough on regardless whereas the irish teacher gave us a spark. we only did a handful of poems in his class but i can still remember the way he read them like it was today. the class was enjoyable and relaxed, and we all did pretty well if i remember correctly.
to everyone who argues that irish shouldn't be a requirement, the only answer is that if it's given as an option, then every subject should be on the line too.

Insect Overlord · 02-02-2017 2:03am

Positively Negative wrote: »

64 million people just voted for Donald Trump, 17 million for Brexit. You think that many people knew nothing about history?

"Alternative facts". Simplified slogans. Populist promises. Blinkered world-view.

Never mind history; a lot of those voters aren't even fully clued-in on the present.

dev100 · 02-02-2017 2:10am

God I was one of those who hated Irish with a passion !!! I'd fall asleep in the class from pure boredom for me it was 35 minutes of hell not being able to understand anything that was being said class . That went on thru out secondary school, literally not one word. I used to dread being asked questions as I'd be literally lost and had no comprehensive on what was being asked.

God it's coming back to me I use to have 2 sets of double classes on a Thursday.... pure and utter torture

I actually done French up until the junior and got a better result than Irish !!! Which is a sad reflection on a system that drills Irish into you from the age of 4/5 until you leave school

I think it's down to the way it's thought it should be done like other foreign languages.

My mate used to go the gaeltacht and loved it .. As punishment I was often threatened with being sent off if I was acting the maggot

vg88 · 02-02-2017 2:14am

I was exempt from Irish since I was 6 or 7 and it was one of the best decisions ever. Irish has and will have zero practical use for me (or anyone I know).

I speak a little of French and Czech and these languages are far more useful than Irish is for myself. It seems such a waste to invest so many resources into the education system for the Irish language when there is zero practical use for it. From what I saw, you didn't study to learn the language (as I did with French and Czech) but to learn poems and stories, then the language.

As someone who didn't do Irish, I saw so much time other students spent studying this language and for the exams. Some loved it, more despised it. Why should it not be optional then?

endacl · 02-02-2017 2:38am

Positively Negative wrote: »

64 million people just voted for Donald Trump, 17 million for Brexit. You think that many people knew nothing about history?

Of course not. Many of them are just arseholes.

the_syco · 02-02-2017 2:52am

mrsherself wrote: »

Well to be honest, you still haven't answered my question at all! You're also "forced" to learn maths and English and you're "forced" to have a certain amount of other subjects but you haven't said they are being "shoved down your throat".

Maths, english, etc, useful. Irish; never again used after the LC.

=-=

Compare how it's taught compared to how French is taught.

With French (Ordinary), I was taught how to use it in conversation. Found too late I was more suited for German, but meh, couldn't switch by then.

With Irish, I was taught poems and crap to learn off by heart to read back at exam time. This was in Ordinary for the JC, and later in Foundation for the LC. Everything about Irish was about poems, the tense of the poem, and what to say for the orals.

I would have preferred to have been taught how to converse in it; would be great for when you're abroad, and you could speak to other Irish people in Irish, like how other foreign nationalities do.

Suckit · 02-02-2017 3:16am

mrsherself wrote: »

Any explanations or thoughts on where this phrase comes from?

Ps: I'm more interested in thoughts on people aged 40 and under who were not of the Peig generation, as poor Peig is usually used as a bizarre excuse

Pss: I made a point of reading Peig after hearing how aaaaaaawful this book was. It wasn't great, but holy God, it wasn't awful!

I have no idea where the phrase comes from originally, and like you, i have heard it and dislike it.
I think Peig has only been used as an excuse by the larger percentage of people that you have spoken to.
I have never heard it used as an excuse to not like Irish any more than any other reason.
I have, however heard it described as depressing. I have never read it.
It could have been anything that would have people uninterested, but for you to discount or be less interested in peoples opinion of over 40 i think is a bit silly. You want to know the cause and reason for something that you believe started from a generation of people that you would prefer not to hear from.
Ignoring that, Irish, like anything, can be easily taught if you are teaching it to people in a way that they find interesting.
Irish is easily dismissed as something that we do not need. And that is most likely when and where the phrase came from. Irish was, until fairly recently mandatory, yet found by many as highly irrelevant.

SterlingArcher · 02-02-2017 3:21am

An File wrote: »

"Alternative facts". Simplified slogans. Populist promises. Blinkered world-view.

Never mind history; a lot of those voters aren't even fully clued-in on the present.

Clued in how exactly? Hillary instead of Bernie. Great decisions made by people supposedly "clued in". This is their design.

On track.if we ignore English. You Can try spin it what ever way you see fit. If Irish was treated in the same level playing field as the other languages being taught in schools. It would be practically non existent. Is it the curriculums fault? Or the kids and parents for knowing it is long gone.

Facing facts this is not Germany, France or Spain. It is not used as widely as they are in their respective nations. sad but true. It is just being barely kept alive on life support. And nobody has that balls to pull the plug.

Personally I wouldn't like to see it die off completely. But as it is being done right now. It may as well.

Gaoth Laidir · 02-02-2017 8:00am

I'm just the wrong side of the 40 years asked by the OP (class of '92) but here is my opinion anyway. Apologies for the long post but all think it has an important message.

I disagree with how Irish is taught as a subject, not a language. There is a difference.

Kids under the age of 10-12 can naturally speak any language you throw at them and do so with ease. After this age, however, their brains lose this ability and it becomes much more difficult to pick up a new language. Of course in Ireland it is only at this point that they are introduced to a new language (say French) in secondary school, when it's too late. What a waste.

Now if Irish had been taught purely as a language, without the ****e of old Irish poetry, etc., then this amazing early childhood linguistic ability would be preserved and would pay dividends when it comes to learning other languages. Look at how differently French is taught compared to Irish. French is taught as a language. You actually look at it as a language in your timetable. You speak it. Listen to it. Learn its grammar. All worthwhile stuff, not diluted by other old French poetry merde.

I failed honours Irish in the LC. I hated it. I didn't look at it again until I was I was on ERASMUS in Germany and someone didn't believe that we have our own language in Ireland. I tried to prove him wrong by trying to give him an example (by saying "*** is ainm dom") but I couldn't even say it without stopping to think. Eventually I got it but it didn't come naturally like a native language should. From that day on I said that isn't right.

I now speak 9 languages (to varying degrees), one of which is Irish. I listen to R na G in the car. I watch TG4 and try not to look at the subtitles. I can help my kids with their homework with no problem at all, the same homework I struggled with at their age. All this because I learned other languages in the meantime and therefore reflected differently on my Irish.

I do seem to have a better aptitude for languages than a lot of people but I still think it's remarkable that many people do as well (or better) at say French than Irish in their LC. This after only learning it for 5 or 6 years, compared to 12 for Irish. Plus we spent all those years in a bilingual society (roadsigns, official documents, etc. in Irish, not French).

I really think Irish should continue as a compulsory part of our school timetable but it should only be in a spoken and read format. Conversational classes about the match at the weekend, look at Irish newspaper clips and discuss them, learn grammar, show TG4 programmes in class, etc. Start doing that with kids right from an early age and they will leave school actually knowing how to say their name. Isn't that what the point is?

hullaballoo · 02-02-2017 1:51pm

I agree with the above. It is a shame, but not much more, that we didn't all grow up with conversational Irish.

The reason for the syllabus being the way it is is that it presupposes proficiency in the language at a basic level, so it is taught as though we're all fluent native speakers somehow and the syllabus is at a level across the board that is way too advanced for people who can barely string a sentence together, if even.

It's taught like English with all of the emphasis on poetry and old worldy stuff because of this assumption of competence. It desperately needs to be stripped back and taught like a foreign language, which is what it is to most Irish people.

It should also be optional as an exam subject at LC level and removed as a requirement for any University degree programme that isn't directly related to the Irish language.

All of that said, I wouldn't say it was shoved down my throat. It wasn't, I chose to concentrate on learning it out of a broader love of languages and took it very seriously in school. I didn't see it being shoved down anyone else's throat either. We were all free to choose the level we wanted to attain, notwithstanding whatever entry requirements there might have been for third level.

Positively Negative · 02-02-2017 1:58pm

I'm sorry, but when will Irish ever become useful to us? It's an advantage learning other European languages for job opportunities, even for just traveling, but what advantage would there be being fluent in Irish? We should be aiming towards a global language not learning old pointless ones

SterlingArcher · 02-02-2017 3:56pm

OSI wrote: »

I remember being told I couldn't go to the toilet unless I asked in Irish. I don't remember being told I couldn't go because I didn't know algebra or rock types.

Well they did ask number one or two....

Cathellen · 06-02-2017 4:28pm

Is breá liomsa freisin an Ghaeilge ...maybe students feel 'forced ' because it's the only compulsory subject ...is it not??

Carlos Orange · 06-02-2017 4:32pm

OSI wrote: »

I remember being told I couldn't go to the toilet unless I asked in Irish. I don't remember being told I couldn't go because I didn't know algebra or rock types.

I don't remember that being how it worked but given the phrase is etched deeply into my mind I expect it is how things were for at least a few of my earlier teachers. Seems a bit messed up.

Call me Al · 06-02-2017 5:09pm

I love Irish, more specifically I love spoken Irish. But I dislike that it is compulsory for LC ... and I say that with the belief that English shouldn't be compulsory for LC either. I think once you can read speak and construct a coherent essay there is no real need for detailed poetry prose etc.

Both should be optional unless maybe for primary teaching like some cao courses where science /honours maths/foreign language etc are a requirement for course content.

Gaoth Laidir · 06-02-2017 7:23pm

Cathellen wrote: »

Is breá liomsa freisin an Ghaeilge ...maybe students feel 'forced ' because it's the only compulsory subject ...is it not??

One of three...English and Maths being the other two.

Carlos Orange · 06-02-2017 7:45pm

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

One of three...English and Maths being the other two.

According to this written answer to the Dail in 2005 english and maths are optional in the leaving cert.

"In accordance with the rules and programme for secondary schools, the approved course for the established leaving certificate must include Irish and not less than four of the following examination subjects, all of which are optional: classical studies; ancient Greek; Latin; English; Hebrew studies; French; German; Italian; Spanish; history; geography; mathematics; applied mathematics; physics; chemistry; physics and chemistry; agricultural science; biology; agricultural economics; engineering; technical drawing; construction studies; home economics scientific and social; accounting; business; economics; art, including crafts; music; Russian; Arabic; Japanese; and religious education."

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail2005112900327?opendocument

Suckit · 08-02-2017 3:54am

Irish is definitely not compulsory, and realistically, has not been since the early 90's.
It was supposed to be, but it was not enforced. I know many people who did not take Irish for the leaving cert in the early 90's and i even know one person who was not allowed to be taught it their school.
When i sat my leaving cert in 1996 a lot of people in my year pointed to the above ('91 and '93 mainly) and were told it was compulsory, but they could opt out. Which still makes no sense, but it was possible.

Call me Al · 08-02-2017 8:45am

http://www.education.ie/en/Parents/Information/Irish-Exemption/Irish-Exemption.html

Compulsory, without an exemption, for admission to most 3rd level.. unless there are some exceptions?

CorkBrian · 10-02-2017 7:16pm

I'd like to see every primary school as a Gaelscoil.

It's been proved that learning a second language has a knock on effect for all other subjects (the top performing secondary schools in he country are largely Gaelscoileanna).

I'd love to see it taught properly from a young age - i.e. as a method of communication. Speak it, speak it, speak it!

I hated Irish in primary school, but after spending 2 summers down the Corca Dhuibhne Gaeltacht at the start of secondary school - where speaking it seemed secondary to having the craic and trying to get with girls - you didn't realise how fluent you were becoming.

Living through the language developed my grá for it, and its happening now with a lot of the younger generation.

Have it as an optional subject for Leaving Cert but emphasise it as a medium for learning at a young age and we'll reap the benefits.

sryanbruen · 10-02-2017 7:22pm

OSI wrote: »

Yes, I believe Trinity allows the substitution of a foreign language in place of Irish. The requirement is also dropped if you meet the same exemption criteria as school, ie came to the Ireland after your 13th birthday or something like that.

Also, my "learning issues" allows me to drop Irish if I wanted to and still go to college but for the sake of my love for the language, I am never going to drop it.

mrsherself · 04-07-2019 2:50pm

And here I am again, the OP, two years later! Haha! I still teach Irish. I've been teaching it for 10 years now, but I also teach English too.

It's an odd thing, that people think they use secondary school English to function in their everyday lives - it's often an argument put forward - that English and maths are "useful" but Irish is not.

Well I tell ya, reading poetry and writing stories doesn't help you with everyday life either!

I think my issue with people not liking Irish was the vitriol and the crazy expressions (shoving down throats) that came with it. I hated maths in school but I never had a passionate hatred, like some people do for Irish.

Anyhow, I am a lover of languages, big and small, and I'm a lover of Irish and everything in Ireland too, so on I go! Ní aontóidh chuile dhuine le mo thuairimí agus sin an saol..

Gaoth Laidir · 05-07-2019 8:33am

I agree that it's the curriculum that's the problem. I'm from the class of '92 but it sounds like the changes to date are not that significant. Still the literature, albeit with a slightly smaller overall mark. Irish is still being taught as a subject and not a language. That's the problem.

I failed Irish in '92, something I regret, but have since come back to become almost fluent, doing this in my own time and my own way, with not a poem or prose in sight. I've also learned 6 other languages in the meantime and am studying 3 more now. All without a poem or prose in sight.

I've used various means to learn these languages but the common theme is exposure to written and spoken forms. This has become easier with the technology, cheaper travel and our increasingly diverse population, but the key is still practice. This isn't something that seems to be the core characteristic of the current Irish curriculum, unfortunately.

I've recently started using the Duolingo app, by far the best app I've seen, and it offers Irish as one of its languages to learn. The app keeps referring to the fact that "there are more people learning Irish on Duolingo than there are native Irish speakers". True or not, it's food for thought. Irish may not be the most lucrative language for carving out a career, but it doesn't have to be. Learning a language - any language - develops skills that complement all those others that "useful" subjects teach us. It's our language and we should not lose it, but please teach it primarily as a spoken language and to hell with the curriculum. Have fun conversations with them in class. Talk shíte with them, have the "craic" with them, but through Irish. So what if everyone in your class fails the exam because they didn't do the poetry. Probably no big change there, but at least they'll be able to speak it and will have enjoyed the process too.

Irish being shoved down people's throats

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