2020 French Open

walshb · 13-10-2020 4:19pm

glasso wrote: »

Tennis is a combination of agility, power, skill, experience and mental strength.

All 5 go to make up the perfect tennis player match-winning machine.

The younger guys might have more of the first 2 compared to Djokovic and Nadal but less of the next 2 and definitely less of the last attribute.

Physical wise, Rafa looked as good as ever around the court..

Experience, we know he has...

Physical skill/prowess is a huge reason why he is so good, and usually this is what clearly declines in the 30s..

Once Rafa is still fast around the court, then he will win and win..

Court speed and coverage decline is is when he starts to lose..

His ball striking still very solid..

And it’s his ability to be in position that allows this.

A fair few Rafa points are him simply getting to the ball and making the foes play the extra shot, and the foes committing unforced errors; some from simple boredom/annoyance!!!!!!!! He wins so many points that should have been over and against him......

[Deleted User] · 13-10-2020 5:16pm

Yes but even Nadal has adapted due to his (relative terms of course - still a beast) physical prowess waning

He looks to play shorter points now compared to how he used to by being more aggressive in his shots

He used to be happy to play much longer rallies but that has changed

You can read up on more knowledgeable observers than I about this

Part of this was also the work that he did on his serve to win more "easier" points

https://www.essentiallysports.com/there-has-been-a-very-significant-evolution-rafael-nadal-on-his-new-serve/

walshb · 13-10-2020 5:26pm

I suppose it boils down to:

A peak Rafa being extremely-exceptionally difficult to beat
A past peak Rafa (what we have now) very difficult to beat.

[Deleted User] · 13-10-2020 5:30pm

walshb wrote: »

I suppose it boils down to:

A peak Rafa being extremely-exceptionally difficult to beat
A past peak Rafa (what we have now) very difficult to beat.

yes - still (very) difficult to beat and has smartly adapted and because he's so good he's (on clay anyways) still a beast after adapting

and on top form like on Sunday on clay unbeatable pretty much

he raised his game a few levels up from what he had previously shown over the fortnight

and it was actually a competitive match - even the 6-0 set was contested - seems strange to say that but it was

the set took 43 minutes. some women's GS matches are over in 43 minutes

EagererBeaver · 13-10-2020 6:40pm

The fact that Nole was also playing to a high level has been overlooked a bit. The number is deuces in the first set was insane.

Along with his serve, Nadal has improved his volleys over the years massively. His backhand too.

walshb · 13-10-2020 6:52pm

glasso wrote: »

yes - still (very) difficult to beat and has smartly adapted and because he's so good he's (on clay anyways) still a beast after adapting

and on top form like on Sunday on clay unbeatable pretty much

he raised his game a few levels up from what he had previously shown over the fortnight

and it was actually a competitive match - even the 6-0 set was contested - seems strange to say that but it was

the set took 43 minutes. some women's GS matches are over in 43 minutes

Yes, that’s the mad thing about tennis. A few points here and there can greatly alter a result. Nole had his chances..he just did not take them, and messed up a bit too much.

Girly Gal · 13-10-2020 9:06pm

It's true that Nadal in particular has adapted his game as he knows he doesn't have the stamina for long drawn out matches back to back, he can get away with one or two in the later rounds, but, wants to get matches over faster to conserve energy for the next day.
If Nadal can adapt his game in his thirties, there's no reason the lads in their twenties can't adjust theirs too, to at least make them more competitive.
Djokovic won a slam in 2008 at 21, yet wasn't satisfied with that and upped his game in order to compete with Federer and Nadal on a more consistent level. The younger guys need to do something similar if they want to compete with Djokovic and Nadal, because wherever they are doing at the moment isn't working. Murray and Wawrinka also stepped up their game to be able to compete with the big 3 when the big 3 were in or closer to their prime.
Nadal, Djokovic and even Federer are still looking for marginal gains, I'm not so sure some of the younger guys are, certainly not to the level of those 3. They need to adjust their mental approach and attitude if they seriously want to challenge Nadal and Djokovic.

Tbf to Thiem I think he is as close as he can get to his full potential, it's just that his best level isn't generally good enough to beat Nadal and Djokovic at GS level. Tsitsipas too is only just 22, so has time on his side ( it just feels like he's around longer). Zverev and Medvedev are in their prime, they have enough experience at this level now, but, are in my opinion further from their full potential than they should be.
This year has been disjointed so possibly more difficult for the younger guys to make the necessary adjustments this year to get to the next level. At the moment they appear to be happy to put up a decent showing against Djokovic and Nadal, almost like a moral victory. It would be a shame if the younger guys leave it to time to defeat Nadal and Djokovic rather than making the necessary adjustments in their game to push them aside.

[Deleted User] · 13-10-2020 9:33pm

Girly Gal wrote: »

It's true that Nadal in particular has adapted his game as he knows he doesn't have the stamina for long drawn out matches back to back, he can get away with one or two in the later rounds, but, wants to get matches over faster to conserve energy for the next day.
If Nadal can adapt his game in his thirties, there's no reason the lads in their twenties can't adjust theirs too, to at least make them more competitive.
Djokovic won a slam in 2008 at 21, yet wasn't satisfied with that and upped his game in order to compete with Federer and Nadal on a more consistent level. The younger guys need to do something similar if they want to compete with Djokovic and Nadal, because wherever they are doing at the moment isn't working. Murray and Wawrinka also stepped up their game to be able to compete with the big 3 when the big 3 were in or closer to their prime.
Nadal, Djokovic and even Federer are still looking for marginal gains, I'm not so sure some of the younger guys are, certainly not to the level of those 3. They need to adjust their mental approach and attitude if they seriously want to challenge Nadal and Djokovic.

simply they are just not good enough yet.

maybe some of them will be, maybe none of them will be for another while at least until Djkovic and Nadal go off the boil pemanently.

as others have said, seems to be the mental resilience and application aspect that is holding some of them back.

Joe_ Public · 13-10-2020 9:44pm

Girly Gal wrote: »

It's true that Nadal in particular has adapted his game as he knows he doesn't have the stamina for long drawn out matches back to back, he can get away with one or two in the later rounds, but, wants to get matches over faster to conserve energy for the next day.
If Nadal can adapt his game in his thirties, there's no reason the lads in their twenties can't adjust theirs too, to at least make them more competitive.
Djokovic won a slam in 2008 at 21, yet wasn't satisfied with that and upped his game in order to compete with Federer and Nadal on a more consistent level. The younger guys need to do something similar if they want to compete with Djokovic and Nadal, because wherever they are doing at the moment isn't working. Murray and Wawrinka also stepped up their game to be able to compete with the big 3 when the big 3 were in or closer to their prime.
Nadal, Djokovic and even Federer are still looking for marginal gains, I'm not so sure some of the younger guys are, certainly not to the level of those 3. They need to adjust their mental approach and attitude if they seriously want to challenge Nadal and Djokovic.

Tbf to Thiem I think he is as close as he can get to his full potential, it's just that his best level isn't generally good enough to beat Nadal and Djokovic at GS level. Tsitsipas too is only just 22, so has time on his side ( it just feels like he's around longer). Zverev and Medvedev are in their prime, they have enough experience at this level now, but, are in my opinion further from their full potential than they should be.
This year has been disjointed so possibly more difficult for the younger guys to make the necessary adjustments this year to get to the next level. At the moment they appear to be happy to put up a decent showing against Djokovic and Nadal, almost like a moral victory. It would be a shame if the younger guys leave it to time to defeat Nadal and Djokovic rather than making the necessary adjustments in their game to push them aside.

Point about older players still trying to improve themselves is a pertinent one. I think in lots of sports, especially well remunerated ones, a lot of talented young players find a comfort zone and stick with it. You've millions in bank before your 20, a nice handy lifestyle, beautiful wife, why the need to push yourself crazy to try and match guys who just seem almost unreachable. They can do very nicely just coasting.

[Deleted User] · 13-10-2020 10:02pm

Schmetterling 905 wrote: »

If they aren't good enough now they likely never will be. The true greats usually win a slam by the time they're 22.

1. well there are some decent guys around that age or younger

2. these guys don't usually have Djokovic and Nadal level players in their way. they are not OAP's by modern tennis standards - you have to be darn good to beat them - not just young and skilful. They are proven winners who know how to win and are well able to still win - they don't just lay down and hand over GS titles. They are actually amongst the best ever and particularly in the case of those two known for mental resilience which is not likely to degrade in their case and a lot of people are over-estimating how far they have degraded in other parts of their game.

2021 will be quite informative I think

Girly Gal · 13-10-2020 10:11pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Point about older players still trying to improve themselves is a pertinent one. I think in lots of sports, especially well remunerated ones, a lot of talented young players find a comfort zone and stick with it. You've millions in bank before your 20, a nice handy lifestyle, beautiful wife, why the need to push yourself crazy to try and match guys who just seem almost unreachable. They can do very nicely just coasting.

That's my point the younger players seem to be just coasting, not prepared to make the necessary changes or sacrifices required, it might well be the case that they're not just good enough anyways. At their prime Federer, Nadal and Djokovic were the absolute pinnacle of sport not just tennis, there is no doubt they have all declined by varying degrees, yes they are still capable of one off performances like Nadal last Sunday, but, their general form is lower than before, yet, they are even more dominant now than in their prime. In their prime the likes of Murray,Wawrinka, Del Potro (when fit) and Cilic really made them earn their grand slams. At the moment they own the GS. Let's face it , it's not always one of the big 3 that's beating the younger guys that are supposed to be contenders, it's often journeyman that beat them in the slams, that points to a mental and attitude problem.

Sultan of Bling · 13-10-2020 10:59pm

Most of the talk is about djokovic and Nadal adding to their gs totals.

What do people think of Federer's chances?

His best chance will probably be Wimbledon but I just can't see him winning anymore myself.

Although I thought the same before 2017.

Magnificent achievement by rafa on Sunday.

[Deleted User] · 13-10-2020 11:03pm

Sultan of Bling wrote: »

Most of the talk is about djokovic and Nadal adding to their gs totals.

What do people think of Federer's chances?

His best chance will probably be Wimbledon but I just can't see him winning anymore myself.

Although I thought the same before 2017.

Magnificent achievement by rafa on Sunday.

Federer is a bit of an unknown given the surgery and time off

He'll be nearly 40 next Wimbledon

That's a lot older than the other two

I doubt if he can take the title there

Would be a romantic story and all but don't see it unless he breezes through all the way to the semis with easy matches

Will see where he's at when he comes back I guess

Girly Gal · 13-10-2020 11:11pm

Sultan of Bling wrote: »

Most of the talk is about djokovic and Nadal adding to their gs totals.

What do people think of Federer's chances?

His best chance will probably be Wimbledon but I just can't see him winning anymore myself.

Although I thought the same before 2017.

Magnificent achievement by rafa on Sunday.

He has at best an outside chance of winning Wimbledon 2021, if it goes ahead, but, Djokovic and Nadal would be ahead of him, also depending on how he comes back after this layoff, some of the younger guys might have jumped ahead of him. Outside of Wimbledon 2021, he has little to no chance of winning another slam.
I think Wimbledon not going ahead this year was the last real chance of Federer winning another slam. He really should have won in 2019 and I'd have given him a decent chance of winning this year's Wimbledon, but, with him being a year older and a long lay off I think his chances of adding another slam are slim to none tbh, probably still make the latter changes of 2 or 3 of the slams but don't see him winning any.

Augme · 13-10-2020 11:30pm

I think thiem has a great chance an the AO open and will compete hard in next year's US and French too. He should have a lot more confidence from his US victory.

Personally I think if thiem took novak or nadal to a deciding 5th set then he would win now compared to the previous loses. More confident in his own game and ability and a great fitness levels for the 5th.

Rob2D · 14-10-2020 12:27am

Y'know, there's a lot of people saying that 13 French Opens is a record that will never be beaten........

But honestly I think Rafa has a pretty good chance of doing it next year.

Hector Savage · 14-10-2020 8:35am

walshb wrote: »

Physical wise, Rafa looked as good as ever around the court..

Experience, we know he has...

Physical skill/prowess is a huge reason why he is so good, and usually this is what clearly declines in the 30s..

Once Rafa is still fast around the court, then he will win and win..

Court speed and coverage decline is is when he starts to lose..

His ball striking still very solid..

And it’s his ability to be in position that allows this.

A fair few Rafa points are him simply getting to the ball and making the foes play the extra shot, and the foes committing unforced errors; some from simple boredom/annoyance!!!!!!!! He wins so many points that should have been over and against him......

And when do you think (as a Rafa fan I presume) this gets strange ?

When he is 40 and still winning the FO without losing a set will you start to think .... hmmmmmm...

I notice Rafa is going bald too ... weird, his Dad isn't bald, whats causing the baldness ... my guess would be whatever dope he's on - as he clearly is.

Hector Savage · 14-10-2020 8:36am

Rob2D wrote: »

Y'know, there's a lot of people saying that 13 French Opens is a record that will never be beaten........

But honestly I think Rafa has a pretty good chance of doing it next year.

He will, and the year after that ... and after that .... all the way to 20 French opens ... but nothing strange here ... NO NO NO!!!

He's just so so good!!

Girly Gal · 14-10-2020 8:50pm

I see Toni Nadal reckons Federer is still the GOAT even after Rafa's win on Sunday.

Hector Savage · 19-10-2020 2:35pm

Girly Gal wrote: »

I see Toni Nadal reckons Federer is still the GOAT even after Rafa's win on Sunday.

course he'd say that, he won;t say otherwise till he has >20.

walshb · 20-10-2020 11:06pm

Rob2D wrote: »

Y'know, there's a lot of people saying that 13 French Opens is a record that will never be beaten........

But honestly I think Rafa has a pretty good chance of doing it next year.

He shouldn’t have a great chance, but the opposition is just not up to it...

And of course, even at 35 or so he is still very good.

Rob2D · 28-10-2020 4:19pm

walshb wrote: »

He shouldn’t have a great chance, but the opposition is just not up to it...

That's the thing though. I don't think there can be any opposition for him. He has 100 matches won there over almost two decades. And how far back do you go to find someone to beat him? Guga? Borg?

At what point do we have to stand back and say well, maybe he just the best.

dominatinMC · 28-10-2020 10:41pm

Rob2D wrote: »

That's the thing though. I don't think there can be any opposition for him. He has 100 matches won there over almost two decades. And how far back do you go to find someone to beat him? Guga? Borg?

At what point do we have to stand back and say well, maybe he just the best.

Maybe? I don't think there is any doubt about it

Girly Gal · 28-10-2020 10:44pm

Rob2D wrote: »

That's the thing though. I don't think there can be any opposition for him. He has 100 matches won there over almost two decades. And how far back do you go to find someone to beat him? Guga? Borg?

At what point do we have to stand back and say well, maybe he just the best.

There's no argument that he's by far the greatest clay court player of all time, no one disputes that

Rob2D · 29-10-2020 2:01pm

Girly Gal wrote: »

There's no argument that he's by far the greatest clay court player of all time, no one disputes that

That's what I mean.

We just always have these people that spout off about how trash the younger guys are. That none of them are stepping up. It's like they expect some young buck, perfectly formed, to decend from the clouds on a ray of light with racquet in hand. Ready to brush the big 3 aside with ease. It's gas that these people think the greatest ever players should be beaten now becuase it's simply time for it to happen.

Girly Gal · 29-10-2020 10:12pm

Rob2D wrote: »

That's what I mean.

We just always have these people that spout off about how trash the younger guys are. That none of them are stepping up. It's like they expect some young buck, perfectly formed, to decend from the clouds on a ray of light with racquet in hand. Ready to brush the big 3 aside with ease. It's gas that these people think the greatest ever players should be beaten now becuase it's simply time for it to happen.

No one is expecting that, but, the younger guys should be more competitive, also the big 3 are pushing on and are not as good now as say 5/6 years ago.They are still playing at a high level but, not quite as high as before, that's why people expect the younger guys to be more competitive especially at grand slam level. Most of the younger guys, (Thiem, Zverev, Medvedev)are in their mid twenties now so are in their prime and not youngsters anymore. Up until the big 3, it was rare for the world No 1 to be in their thirties, now the most dominant pair are in their mid thirties and arguably their closest rival is almost 40, regardless of the fact they are probably the 3 greatest players of all time, it's surprising that they are still as dominant as they are right now.

2020 French Open

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