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Electric Scooters

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    #62
    Kevin3
    Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭Kevin3


    beauf wrote: »
    There is more to it than that. Its never quoted which is why people are confused.

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2.../made/en/print

    https://publications.europa.eu/en/pu...4a/language-en


    Quote:
    Article 1 (h) ... “cycles with pedal assistance
    which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of
    0.25 kW, of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a
    speed of 25 km/h, or sooner, if the cyclist stops pedalling”. As a result of this exclusion, member
    states should classify these vehicles as bicycles.

    Basically this is defined as a bicycle.

    So therefore a Scooter no matter how it starts cannot be a bicycle.

    Those links don't work.


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    #63
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Basically one is EU law the other Irish law accepting it. Too hard to fix the links on my phone. You have the text anyway.


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    #64
    Kevin3
    Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭Kevin3


    Well the context is important but after a bit of searching I presume you are referring to these links:

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2005/si/412/made/en/print

    https://publications.europa.eu/en/publication-detail/-/publication/924b9569-4bc8-11e9-a8ed-01aa75ed71a1/language-en/format-HTML/source-102215667

    These are EU regulations which concern common definitions, categorisation and standards for vehicles in terms of safety, emissions, type etc and apply to countries across the EU so that the same rules around free movement of goods, trade, tariffs etc apply.

    These regulations do not in any way dilute a countries sovereignty and right to prohibit the use of certain types of vehicle on public roads, licencing requirements etc. They make no change to our principal Act regarding these issues; the Road Traffic Act 1961.

    The regulations above actually just exclude the quoted definition of pedal assisted cycles from those regulations anyway.


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    #65
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    The reason why Pedelecs are not considered MPVs under Irish law is because the motor does not afford a means of propulsion for the vehicle which is the qualifying criteria for an MPV, rather the pedaling action does.

    To be a MPV propulsion must be provided by mechanical means, it is not, rather there is progressive assistance provided from the motor when pedaling, when you cease to pedal the motor can not afford a means of propulsion to the cycle, the means of propulsion is through physical exertion of the pedals, not the motor.

    That is the position taken by both the RSA and the Gardai, and the Department of Transport on foot of legal advice.


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    #66
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Its because Pedal assisted cycles are classified as bicycles. We've chosen to have the same regulations.

    There are different types of Pedelecs some are MPV's some are not.
    A pedelec (from pedal electric cycle) is a bicycle where the rider's pedalling is assisted by a small electric motor; thus it is a type of low-powered e-bike. However, unlike some other types of e-bikes, pedelecs are classified as conventional bicycles in many countries by road authorities rather than as a type of electric moped. Pedelecs include an electronic controller which cuts power to the motor when the rider is not pedalling or when a certain speed – usually 25 km/h (16 mph) or 32 km/h (20 mph) – is reached. Pedelecs are useful for people who ride in hilly areas or in strong headwinds. While a pedelec can be any type of bicycle, a pedelec city bike is very common. A conventional bicycle can be converted to a pedelec with the addition of the necessary parts, i.e. motor, battery etc.

    Many jurisdictions classify pedelecs as bicycles as opposed to mopeds or motorcycles. More powerful e-bikes, such as the S-Pedelecs and power-on-demand e-bikes (those whose motors can provide assistance regardless of whether the rider is pedalling or not) are often classified as mopeds or even motorcycles with the rider thus subject to the regulations of such motor vehicles, e.g. having a license and a vehicle registration, wearing a helmet etc.


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    #67
    Kevin3
    Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭Kevin3


    GM228 wrote: »
    The reason why Pedelecs are not considered MPVs under Irish law is because the motor does not afford a means of propulsion for the vehicle which is the qualifying criteria for an MPV, rather the peddling action does.

    To be a MPV propulsion must be provided by mechanical means, it is not, rather there is progressive assistance provided from the motor when peddling, when you cease to pedal the motor can not afford a means of propulsion to the cycle, the means of propulsion is through physical exertion of the pedals, not the motor.

    That is the position taken by both the RSA and the Gardai, and the Department of Transport on foot of legal advice.

    I understand that's the position but it is irreconcilable with the definition. There has to be some propulsion from an electric motor otherwise it would be pointless. There's nothing in the definition to allow a derogation if the propulsion is accompanied with manual propulsion quiet the contrary it includes the case of an attachment for propulsion regardless of whether the attachment is being used.

    It's interesting to note that the advice on the garda website FAQs regarding electric scooters has changed where it used to say only a matter of months ago:
    What is the legal status of electric/battery powered scooters?

    The use of these types of scooters has become very popular in recent years, especially with children. The legal position is that if one of these scooters can be powered by mechanical or electrical power alone, and does not require peddling or scooting for propulsion, then the scooter is considered to be a mechanically propelled vehicle (MPV) in terms of road traffic legislation, irrespective of engine capacity. If such scooters are to be used in any public place, they require insurance and road tax as with any other MPV. The driver would also require a driving licence and is obliged to wear a crash helmet. If the user of such a scooter cannot fulfill these legal requirements, then the scooter should only be used on private property.

    It now reads:
    What is the legal status of electric/battery powered scooters?

    The Road Traffic Act 1961 defines a mechanically propelled vehicle as a vehicle intended or adapted for propulsion by mechanical means, including a bicycle or tricycle with an attachment for propelling it by mechanical power, whether or not the attachment is being used. It also includes a vehicle the means of propulsion of which is electrical, or partly electrical and partly mechanical.

    eScooters and suchlike vehicles fall into this category, and are therefore considered to be mechanically propelled vehicles. Any users of such vehicles in a public place (as defined in the Road Traffic Act 1961) must have insurance, motor tax and a driving licence, with penalties under road traffic laws (including fixed charge notices, penalty points, fines and possible seizure of the vehicle) for not being in compliance with these requirements.

    As it is currently not possible to tax or insure eScooters etc., they are not considered suitable for use in a public place.

    It's impossible to establish where the former interpretation has come from but it has spread like wildfire and has become official policy.
    beauf wrote: »
    Its because Pedal assisted cycles are classified as bicycles. We've chosen to have the same regulations.

    There are different types of Pedelecs some are MPV's some are not.

    It's not hard then, to see why a definition of a pedelec in an EU directive on vehicle type standards and it's subsequent giving effect through Irish legislation has become ubiquitous whenever the subject arises.

    A web search will show this definition, which is neither here nor there regarding their legality on Irish roads, is quoted on a similar scale including on many of the specialist and trade websites.

    There may also be confusion as the law in the UK was indeed changed to allow the EU definition of electrically assisted pedal cycles to be used like a bicycle on public roads as long as the user is 14 years or older.


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    #68
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Kevin3 wrote: »
    I understand that's the position but it is irreconcilable with the definition. There has to be some propulsion from an electric motor otherwise it would be pointless. There's nothing in the definition to allow a derogation if the propulsion is accompanied with manual propulsion quiet the contrary it includes the case of an attachment for propulsion regardless of whether the attachment is being used.

    But a pedelec is not "intended or adapted for propulsion by mechanical means", this is the important part.

    The propulsion is not provided for by the motor, it is provided for solely by the cycling with assistance coming from the motor, there is a difference because the motor can not provide the propulsion, it's not possible, the physical exertion provides the propulsion.

    The means of propulsion for a pedelec is provided for by peddling, therefore once you stop pedaling there is no propulsion, the pedelec is therefore a "pedal bicycle", not a "bicycle", and the attachment for propulsion regardless of whether the attachment is being used provision specifically applies to a bicycle, not a pedal bicycle.


    Kevin3 wrote: »
    It's impossible to establish where the former interpretation has come from but it has spread like wildfire and has become official policy.

    It originates from legal advice sought by the Department of Transport from the Attorney General based on the above.

    The reality is that is the position taken by the DoT, the RSA and the Gardai and is unlikely to change unless we get a test case and considering Gardai have taken that position the likelihood of a test case is probably nil.


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    #69
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Kevin3 wrote: »
    ....It's not hard then, to see why a definition of a pedelec in an EU directive on vehicle type standards and it's subsequent giving effect through Irish legislation has become ubiquitous whenever the subject arises....

    You keep using pedelec as its a legally defined type. It isn't.

    What they have done is defined a sub set electrically assisted bicycles of as bicycles. Bicycles are in our existing laws.

    Pedelec can be anything. Its often used to mean an eBike that mean the legal requirements. But not always.
    To really be useful, it is important for a pedelec to be legally classified as a bicycle in each country or jurisdiction rather than classified as a moped or motorcycle. Otherwise, if a pedelec is classified as a moped or motorbike then it may not be allowed in bike lanes or on bike paths; the pedelec may have to be registered; the rider may have to wear a motorcycle helmet; and/or vehicle insurance may have to be paid for.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws#European_Union_definition


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    #70
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    You can hardly argue a eScooter is a type of bicycle as it has no pedals as per the definition.

    An eScooter starts the same as petrol powered bicycle, and both continue without assistance after that.


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    #71
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    In Germany they have a new type "small electric vehicles".


    Ordinance on the Participation of Electric Vehicles on the Road (Electric Vehicle Regulation - Elektrokleinstfahrzeuge-Verordnung - eKFV)
    For the purposes of this Regulation, 'small electric vehicles' means motor vehicles with a maximum design speed of not less than 6 km / h and not more than 20 km / h, which have the following characteristics:....

    https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/ekfv/BJNR075610019.html

    This is what is needed here.


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    #72
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    beauf wrote: »
    In Germany they have a new type "small electric vehicles".


    Ordinance on the Participation of Electric Vehicles on the Road (Electric Vehicle Regulation - Elektrokleinstfahrzeuge-Verordnung - eKFV)



    https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/ekfv/BJNR075610019.html

    This is what is needed here.

    Yes it would seem Germany has made a sensible approach to adding electric scooters as a legitimate form of transport. It is also a big help that they don't have the same claims culture that we have here so these electric scooters can be insured for around €50 a year.

    What could be done here to introduce a similar reasonable rate of insurance here?


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    #73
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,243 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    beauf wrote: »
    Bicycles are in our existing laws.
    Just be careful. Bicycles are vehicles with two wheels. That could be a pedal cycle, a motor cycle, a scooter or other vehicle.


  • Options
    #74
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Victor wrote: »
    Just be careful. Bicycles are vehicles with two wheels. That could be a peal cycle a motor cycle, a scooter or other vehicle.

    I can't find where bicycle itself is defined.
    “pedal bicycle” means a bicycle which is intended or adapted for propulsion solely by the physical exertions of a person or persons seated thereon;

    “pedal cycle” means a vehicle which is a pedal bicycle or pedal tricycle;


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    #75
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    beauf wrote: »
    I can't find where bicycle itself is defined.

    It's not meaning the ordinary two wheel definition applies as pointed out by Victor, hence why I made the "pedal bicycle" vs "bicycle" point in my last point.


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    #76
    The pigeon man
    Registered Users Posts: 473 ✭✭The pigeon man


    GM228 wrote: »
    The reason why Pedelecs are not considered MPVs under Irish law is because the motor does not afford a means of propulsion for the vehicle which is the qualifying criteria for an MPV, rather the pedaling action does.

    To be a MPV propulsion must be provided by mechanical means, it is not, rather there is progressive assistance provided from the motor when pedaling, when you cease to pedal the motor can not afford a means of propulsion to the cycle, the means of propulsion is through physical exertion of the pedals, not the motor.

    That is the position taken by both the RSA and the Gardai, and the Department of Transport on foot of legal advice.

    I'm finding this discussion very interesting. So if the electric motor cuts out when you stop pedalling could your ebike still be legal irrespective of what speed the motor will assist you at?


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    #77
    jester77
    Registered Users Posts: 11,262 ✭✭✭✭jester77


    beauf wrote: »
    In Germany they have a new type "small electric vehicles".


    Ordinance on the Participation of Electric Vehicles on the Road (Electric Vehicle Regulation - Elektrokleinstfahrzeuge-Verordnung - eKFV)



    https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/ekfv/BJNR075610019.html

    This is what is needed here.

    They work well here now, they follow the same rules as cyclists and are allowed in the bike lanes and not on footpaths. I remember it was a bit chaotic when they first launched, there were people riding them on the footpaths and in pedestrian zones. The police clamped down on it relatively quick, it seems to work well now. People are generally sticking to the bike lanes and parking them respectfully.


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