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Electric Scooters

  • 14-05-2019 11:27am
    #1
    louloumc89
    Registered Users Posts: 321 ✭✭


    I'm thinking of getting an electric scooter and wanted to clarify the legality of this.

    Here's what I can find:
    7th March 2019
    https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/2019-03-07/24/

    Shane Ross:
    "The Road Traffic Act 1961 defines a mechanically-propelled vehicle as a vehicle intended or adapted for propulsion by mechanical means, including a bicycle or tricycle with an attachment for propelling it by mechanical power, regardless of whether the attachment is being used. It also includes a vehicle the means of propulsion of which is electrical, or partly electrical and partly mechanical. Electric scooters and powered skateboards fall into this category and are therefore considered to be mechanically-propelled vehicles."

    Noel Rock:
    "These electrically assisted scooters require a manual start. They have to be kick started by the user and must reach a minimum of 7 km per hour under the rider's own propulsion, before the electric assist kicks in. Accordingly, this is where the ambiguity exists. In discussions with the motor taxation offices it appears that these vehicles cannot be taxed. Even if one wanted to tax them one could not. This is where the ambiguity and grey area exists. Ultimately, multiple agencies of the State have differing views on how these vehicles should be treated."

    Electric Scooters are a grey area, but here's why I think they're legal
    The road traffic act he's quoted has exceptions for vehicles where, if the vital electric part if taken off, wouldn't be substantially disabled, then for the purpose of this act (such as a car, motorbike etc), it wouldn't be considered a mechanically propelled vehicle. Push scooters are able to get and maintain considerable speed without the electric part, so they technically fall into the same category as electric bikes which require pedals to start the movement. Electric scooters need to be going at 7km an hour to add the electronic boost, and require that speed maintained manually each hour to continue.

    "http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1961/act/24/section/3/enacted/en/html"

    Road Traffic Act, 1961

    “mechanically propelled vehicle” means, subject to subsection (2) of this section, a vehicle intended or adapted for propulsion by mechanical means, including—

    (a) a bicycle or tricycle with an attachment for propelling it by mechanical power, whether or not the attachment is being used,

    (b) a vehicle the means of propulsion of which is electrical or partly electrical and partly mechanical,


    Subsection (2)
    (2) Where a vehicle, which, apart from this subsection, would be a mechanically propelled vehicle, stands so substantially disabled (either through accident, breakdown or the removal of the engine or other such vital part) as to be no longer capable of being propelled mechanically, it shall be regarded for the purposes of this Act as not being a mechanically propelled vehicle.

    Can anyone clarify? Is this a grey area? Is it black and white, and if so, to which side?
    Tagged:


«13

Comments

  • #2
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    They are powered vehicles. As such, they have to be licensed and insured to be used on public roads.

    There is a specific exemption for pedelecs
    ‘ pedelec ’ means a bicycle or tricycle which is equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kilowatts, of which output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 kilometres per hour, or sooner if the cyclist stops pedalling;

    An electric scooter is not a bicycle or a tricyle.

    The power does not cut off if the user stops pedalling.


  • #3
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    There is a more recent Dail discussion here
    https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2019-05-08/1302/
    The Road Traffic Act 1961 defines a mechanically propelled vehicle as a vehicle intended or adapted for propulsion by mechanical means, including a bicycle or tricycle with an attachment for propelling it by mechanical power, whether or not the attachment is being used. It also includes a vehicle the means of propulsion of which is electrical, or partly electrical and partly mechanical.

    Escooters and powered skateboards fall into this category, and are therefore considered to be mechanically propelled vehicles. Any users of such vehicles in a public place (as defined in the Road Traffic Act 1961) must have insurance, road tax and a driving licence, with penalties under road traffic laws (including fixed charge notices, penalty points, fines and possible seizure of the vehicle) for not being in compliance with these requirements.

    As it is currently not possible to tax or insure escooters or electric skateboards, they are not considered suitable for use in a public place.

    Electric bicycles are in a different category to eScooters. Where a bicycle has an electric motor attached which may be used as an alternate means of propulsion, the vehicle is defined as a mechanically propelled vehicle under the Road Traffic Acts whether or not the motor is being used. However, under Article 1 (h) of EU Directive 2002/24/EC E-bikes are defined as “cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kW, of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 km/h, or sooner, if the cyclist stops pedalling”. As bikes of this type require continuous effort on the part of the cyclist, they are considered to be pedal cycles – in other words, the engine is not the means of propulsion, but an aid to the user.

    Pedal assisted cycles with a maximum continuous rated power of more than 0.25 kW and E-bikes that can be exclusively propelled by the motor are classified in the Directive as low-performance mopeds, i.e. vehicles with pedals, with an auxiliary engine of power not exceeding 1 kW and a maximum design speed not exceeding 25 km/h. Such vehicles are subject to Road Traffic legislation as outlined above, with the user obliged to have tax, insurance and an appropriate driving licence where the vehicle is to be used in a public place.

    I have requested the Road Safety Authority to research how escooters and other such vehicles are regulated in other countries, particularly other Member States. I am keen to understand the road safety implications of the use of such vehicles on public roads, especially when interacting with other vehicles.

    I will make a decision on whether or not to amend existing legislation when I have received the outcome of the Authority’s research, and not before then. I will need to be satisfied that permitting such vehicles on our roads will not give rise to safety concerns, both for the users themselves and for all other road users including cyclists, pedestrians and motorists.


  • #4
    Grassey
    Registered Users Posts: 2,393 ✭✭✭Grassey


    See third point updated fairly recently
    What is the law on e-bikes, pedelecs or battery powered scooters? Regardless of the type of bike, or whether it
    requires an initial push start, the rules are:
     If it can be powered by mechanical or electrical power alone (i.e. it can continue without you pedalling or
    scooting it) then it is considered to be a ‘mechanically propelled vehicle’ (MPV).
     Under Road Traffic law if an MPV is used in a public place it is subject to all of the regulatory controls that
    apply to other vehicles. Therefore it must be roadworthy, registered, taxed and insured.
     The driver of the vehicle must hold the appropriate driving licence and is obliged to wear a crash helmet.

    *And yes I know it's the RSA, and not primary legislation. But they've clarified their position, and as the Gardai are deferring to them in this going by this thread https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057872702&page=79,


  • #5
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,308 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    RayCun wrote: »
    An electric scooter is not a bicycle or a tricyle.

    If it has two wheels and it's designed to transport a human, it's a bicycle. Doesn't matter if it's a penny farthing or scooter or high nellie.


  • #6
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    coylemj wrote: »
    If it has two wheels and it's designed to transport a human, it's a bicycle. Doesn't matter if it's a penny farthing or scooter or high nellie.

    That would be very different to the dictionary definition of a bicycle.

    Where does your definition appear?


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  • #7
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,308 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    RayCun wrote: »
    That would be very different to the dictionary definition of a bicycle.

    Where does your definition appear?

    My hardcopy Chambers 20th Century Dictionary ('New Edition 1983') defines 'bycycle' as follows....

    n. a vehcle with two wheels, one before the other, driven by pedals or a motor.


  • #8
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    coylemj wrote: »
    Chambers 20th Century Dictionary ('New Edition 1983')

    n. a vehcle with two wheels, one before the other, driven by pedals or a motor.
    a vehicle consisting of two wheels held in a frame one behind the other, propelled by pedals and steered with handlebars attached to the front wheel.
    a vehicle with two wheels in tandem, usually propelled by pedals connected to the rear wheel by a chain, and having handlebars for steering
    a vehicle with two wheels tandem, handlebars for steering, a saddle seat, and pedals by which it is propelled

    Scooters don't have pedals.


  • #9
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,308 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    RayCun wrote: »
    Scooters don't have pedals.

    You challenged me to state ...
    RayCun wrote: »
    Where does your definition appear?

    Which I supplied, chapter and verse. And your response is to copy & paste definitions from three unamed sources.

    If you're a lawyer, I hope you never represent me in court.

    Mod
    Now now, pls be nice here


  • #10
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    coylemj wrote: »
    If it has two wheels and it's designed to transport a human, it's a bicycle. Doesn't matter if it's a penny farthing or scooter or high nellie.
    coylemj wrote: »
    My hardcopy Chambers 20th Century Dictionary ('New Edition 1983') defines 'bycycle' as follows....

    n. a vehcle with two wheels, one before the other, driven by pedals or a motor.

    You provided a definition which doesn't support your point. An electric scooter is not a bicycle, because even though it has two wheels and is designed to transport a human, it is not driven by pedals. The law specifically says any motor must cut off "if the cyclist stops pedalling", so to qualify as a bicycle under the legislation it must have pedals.

    I posted definitions (from dictionary.com, Merriam-Webster, and Oxford Dictionaries) which include pedals as part of the definition. Collins dictionary also includes pedals, and the online Chambers dictionary says
    bicycle noun a vehicle consisting of a metal frame with two wheels one behind the other, and a saddle between and above them, which is driven by turning pedals with the feet and steered by handlebars attached to the front wheel.

    An electric scooter is not a bicycle.


  • #11
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,308 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    RayCun wrote: »
    You provided a definition which doesn't support your point.

    The dictionary definition I supplied said 'driven by pedals or a motor'. An electric scooter has a motor so it matches the definition.
    RayCun wrote: »
    An electric scooter is not a bicycle, because even though it has two wheels and is designed to transport a human, it is not driven by pedals.

    So a two-wheeled vehicle which is not propelled by pedals is not a bicycle. Meaning that a motorbike is not a bicycle?


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  • #12
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    coylemj wrote: »
    The dictionary definition I supplied said 'driven by pedals or a motor'. An electric scooter has a motor so it matches the definition.



    So a two-wheeled vehicle which is not propelled by pedals is not a bicycle. Meaning that a motorbike is not a bicycle?

    Most of the definitions posted distinguish between a bicycle and a motorcycle.

    If we were concerned only with dictionaries, you could argue that this is a grey area. But we're talking about the legality of different forms of transport in Ireland. And the legislation is clear that bicycles are propelled by pedals - so a motorcycle is not a bicycle, and neither is an electric scooter.

    (There are some scooters which use pedals. One of those, with a motor that cut off when the pedalling stopped, would arguably be legal. But afaik those hybrid devices don't exist)


  • #13
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,308 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    RayCun wrote: »
    If we were concerned only with dictionaries, you could argue that this is a grey area. But we're talking about the legality of different forms of transport in Ireland.

    No, you are discussing the legalities, my posts have been confined to a discussion on the literal meaning of the word 'bicycle'. The etymology of the word 'motorbike' is clearly lost on you so I won't bother you further.


  • #14
    blackwhite
    Registered Users Posts: 8,445 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    coylemj wrote: »
    If it has two wheels and it's designed to transport a human, it's a bicycle. Doesn't matter if it's a penny farthing or scooter or high nellie.

    1963 RTA (and subsequent acts) include a legal definition of a pedal bicycle under Irish law.

    “pedal bicycle” means a bicycle which is intended or adapted for propulsion solely by the physical exertions of a person or persons seated thereon

    “mechanically propelled vehicle” means, subject to subsection (2) of this section, a vehicle intended or adapted for propulsion by mechanical means, including—
    (a) a bicycle or tricycle with an attachment for propelling it by mechanical power, whether or not the attachment is being used,




    I also see the OP has quoted section 3(2) of the 1961 Act, but appears to have completely mangled what it means:
    (2) Where a vehicle, which, apart from this subsection, would be a mechanically propelled vehicle, stands so substantially disabled (either through accident, breakdown or the removal of the engine or other such vital part) as to be no longer capable of being propelled mechanically, it shall be regarded for the purposes of this Act as not being a mechanically propelled vehicle.

    This means that it is no longer a mechanically propelled vehicle under Irish law ONLY IF you remove or disable the mechanical propulsion mechanism. Until you actually remove or disable the mechanical ability then it remains, legally, a mechanically propelled vehicle and subject to the various laws and regulations that come with that.



    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1961/act/24/enacted/en/print


  • #15
    blackwhite
    Registered Users Posts: 8,445 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    coylemj wrote: »
    No, you are discussing the legalities, my posts have been confined to a discussion on the literal meaning of the word 'bicycle'. The etymology of the word 'motorbike' is clearly lost on you so I won't bother you further.

    Imagine someone doing that in this particular forum


  • #16
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,163 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    louloumc89 wrote: »

    Can anyone clarify? Is this a grey area? Is it black and white, and if so, to which side?

    Its black and white. There is no legal way to use them in public under current legislation.



    Important note: When the gardai stop you (and they are doing so) they will do so for not being insured. This allows them to seize it but also means you'll be guilty of driving uninsured. If convicted this could make it very very difficult for you to obtain motor insurance in future or cause your current policy to greatly increase in price.


  • #17
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,304 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Does the legality change if they are used on the path?


  • #18
    Credit Checker Moose
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,226 ✭✭✭Credit Checker Moose


    NO!


  • #19
    louloumc89
    Registered Users Posts: 321 ✭✭louloumc89


    Thanks so much for all the information. What I'm having trouble with is how everyone is quoting the bicycle law, as if that should also be inferred in the scooter law, and then following up with "a scooter is not a bicycle".

    Obviously a scooter is not a bicycle. So this idea that somehow you needing to keep pedaling invisible pedals is relevant here. The only relevant comparison is that when the law was clarified for bicycles, they distinguished between two types of bicycles; one that has an engine, starts and continues on its own without cycling versus one that requires cycling to start and continue. So, since that was how they interpreted and clarified the law for bicycles, and considering it has not been clarified for scooters. This law was made before these things took off, hence why I think it's grey.

    As for the RSA clarification, that's not a law, even if the gardai are excepting it. I am aware of their interpretation. I'm not interested in quoting that as the law. I'm interested in challenging it. Electric scooters didn't exist when it was written. If they did when the ebike law was being written it would have been clarified I believe. Especially considering the minister is now looking to how other member states have handled these legally to decide how we do.

    I'm basically getting one of these things I'd say. Morning traffic is a nightmare. I'm happy to tax and insure it when I'm allowed to, but in the meantime, any legal geniuses have a law to quote here? 😅😅😅


  • #20
    blackwhite
    Registered Users Posts: 8,445 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    louloumc89 wrote: »
    Thanks so much for all the information. What I'm having trouble with is how everyone is quoting the bicycle law, as if that should also be inferred in the scooter law, and then following up with "a scooter is not a bicycle".

    Obviously a scooter is not a bicycle. So this idea that somehow you needing to keep pedaling invisible pedals is relevant here. The only relevant comparison is that when the law was clarified for bicycles, they distinguished between two types of bicycles; one that has an engine, starts and continues on its own without cycling versus one that requires cycling to start and continue. So, since that was how they interpreted and clarified the law for bicycles, and considering it has not been clarified for scooters. This law was made before these things took off, hence why I think it's grey.

    As for the RSA clarification, that's not a law, even if the gardai are excepting it. I am aware of their interpretation. I'm not interested in quoting that as the law. I'm interested in challenging it. Electric scooters didn't exist when it was written. If they did when the ebike law was being written it would have been clarified I believe. Especially considering the minister is now looking to how other member states have handled these legally to decide how we do.

    I'm basically getting one of these things I'd say. Morning traffic is a nightmare. I'm happy to tax and insure it when I'm allowed to, but in the meantime, any legal geniuses have a law to quote here? ������

    The law has been quoted - but you ignore it because it doesn't tell you what you want to hear.

    Electric scooters currently fall under the definition of a "mechanically propelled vehicle". They don't meet the exemptions for pedal cycles, and they don't meet the exemptions for pedelecs.

    To use a mechanically propelled vehicle on the road you must have tax, insurance, mirrors, front and rear lights, and turning signals.
    Will your e-scooter have all of those?

    I'm sure we'll have you on here whinging again in a few weeks when your toy gets seized by a Garda some morning - looking for some other magic loophole in the law that nobody anywhere has spotted :rolleyes:


  • #21
    The pigeon man
    Registered Users Posts: 473 ✭✭The pigeon man


    As other posters have said it's a mpv. If you want to get around with little effort get yourself an electric bicycle.


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  • #22
    NUTLEY BOY
    Registered Users Posts: 2,344 ✭✭✭NUTLEY BOY


    So, it seems that you cannot tax or insure these conveyances.
    The RSA seem to think that you must do otherwise.
    Gardaí seem to be following the RSA opinion.

    I am not aware that the RSA can interpret the law as that is actually a function of the courts.
    They are entitled to a view but that is different.

    Looks like a classical legal lacuna.

    Gardaí seem to be seizing some of these conveyances on the basis of non compliance with tax and insurance requirements.
    Looks like we need a District Court prosecution for driving one of these without tax or motor insurance with a referral to the High Court by way of case stated. That should sort it....


  • #23
    louloumc89
    Registered Users Posts: 321 ✭✭louloumc89


    NUTLEY BOY wrote: »
    So, it seems that you cannot tax or insure these conveyances.
    The RSA seem to think that you must do otherwise.
    Gardaí seem to be following the RSA opinion.

    I am not aware that the RSA can interpret the law as that is actually a function of the courts.
    They are entitled to a view but that is different.

    Looks like a classical legal lacuna.

    Gardaí seem to be seizing some of these conveyances on the basis of non compliance with tax and insurance requirements.
    Looks like we need a District Court prosecution for driving one of these without tax or motor insurance with a referral to the High Court by way of case stated. That should sort it....

    Thanks! That's interesting, so basically people are getting fined for not having insurance or tax, and yet it's completely impossible to do that. Seems like the best option here is to seek confirmation in writing from the tax office that I've tried to tax it (As an electric vehicle the tax is zero I assume), and confirmation from the insurance companies that it can't be insured. At least this way I've fulfilled an attempt at complying with the law as it's currently being inforced, but it was not possible.

    As for the snide assumption of future bitching about the 'toy' being taken away. Not really helpful mate. Clearly this is going to end up being clarified in law at some point. So yeah, I'm looking for helpful thinking like the above here really.


  • #24
    blackwhite
    Registered Users Posts: 8,445 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    louloumc89 wrote: »
    Thanks! That's interesting, so basically people are getting fined for not having insurance or tax, and yet it's completely impossible to do that. Seems like the best option here is to seek confirmation in writing from the tax office that I've tried to tax it (As an electric vehicle the tax is zero I assume), and confirmation from the insurance companies that it can't be insured. At least this way I've fulfilled an attempt at complying with the law as it's currently being inforced, but it was not possible.

    As for the snide assumption of future bitching about the 'toy' being taken away. Not really helpful mate. Clearly this is going to end up being clarified in law at some point. So yeah, I'm looking for helpful thinking like the above here really.

    No - you're just looking for someone to justify law-breaking because it's convenient for you. You've demonstrated a repeated determination to ignore any and all points that don't fit the outcome you want.

    Until legislation otherwise is passed, an e-scooter falls under the same regulations as any other mechanically-powered vehicle.
    There's numerous regulations that MPVs have to meet - tax and insurance are only two of them, they just happen to be the easiest for the Gardaí to prosecute under.
    There's also regulations requiring mirrors, front and rear lights and turning signals - as well as registration and display of registration plates.
    If you fail to meet any or all of the other regulations (which e-scooters currently score a great big zero on), then the vehicle isn't legally road-worthy and cannot be taxed or insured either.

    But as usual, you'll ignore all of this because it doesn't give the outcome you want. And clearly the laws are just there for you to pick and choose when it suits


  • #25
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,234 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Does the legality change if they are used on the path?
    It gets worse, as mechanically propelled vehicles aren't meant to be used on footways or footpaths, other than crossing, etc.
    louloumc89 wrote: »
    This law was made before these things took off, hence why I think it's grey.
    It's anything but grey. Electric scooters (provided they aren't ped-elecs, and I haven't seen one of these yet, only pedal cycle scooters) are mechanically propelled vehicles and one needs to follow the related laws.

    Anything else is wishful thinking.
    louloumc89 wrote: »
    Thanks! That's interesting, so basically people are getting fined for not having insurance or tax, and yet it's completely impossible to do that. Seems like the best option here is to seek confirmation in writing from the tax office that I've tried to tax it (As an electric vehicle the tax is zero I assume), and confirmation from the insurance companies that it can't be insured. At least this way I've fulfilled an attempt at complying with the law as it's currently being inforced, but it was not possible.
    No you haven't - you haven't sought type approval. Getting that would mean that insurers would be much more likely to insure you and you could then tax it.


  • #26
    louloumc89
    Registered Users Posts: 321 ✭✭louloumc89


    Thanks for clarifying the current law on this, I appreciate it. I'm looking for the next step to getting these legal. I want to challenge the law as it exists. I want to do my due diligence to try and comply with the law, since that currently is not possible to do, I want to look at the exact area of the law where this is called out, and hopefully we will end up having another exception classes for these electric scooters as there is for electric bicycles.


  • #27
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    louloumc89 wrote: »
    Thanks! That's interesting, so basically people are getting fined for not having insurance or tax, and yet it's completely impossible to do that. Seems like the best option here is to seek confirmation in writing from the tax office that I've tried to tax it (As an electric vehicle the tax is zero I assume), and confirmation from the insurance companies that it can't be insured. At least this way I've fulfilled an attempt at complying with the law as it's currently being inforced, but it was not possible.

    As for the snide assumption of future bitching about the 'toy' being taken away. Not really helpful mate. Clearly this is going to end up being clarified in law at some point. So yeah, I'm looking for helpful thinking like the above here really.

    You can buy road legal quads, which are fully compliant with all legislation, try getting insurance for one and see what happens. There is a reason you see feck all on the road here but everywhere else they are fairly common.

    What's the reg of the scooter that you claim that you can't get tax for?


  • #28
    Alex Cohen
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭Alex Cohen


    Almost craqshed into one today


  • #29
    nuac
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,769 Mod ✭✭✭✭nuac


    Mod
    There are different POVs on these machines
    If you differ, pls do politely


  • #30
    louloumc89
    Registered Users Posts: 321 ✭✭louloumc89


    Del2005 wrote: »
    You can buy road legal quads, which are fully compliant with all legislation, try getting insurance for one and see what happens. There is a reason you see feck all on the road here but everywhere else they are fairly common.

    What's the reg of the scooter that you claim that you can't get tax for?

    It doesn't have a reg. Can't get an EC cert for it to register as it's just a push scooter with electronic motor unfortunately.


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  • #31
    Credit Checker Moose
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,226 ✭✭✭Credit Checker Moose


    Private land only for it so.


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