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How long before Irish reunification?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,098 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    You are making it sound like the militia came first, as opposed to them being a response, to a known issue with nationalist rebellions.

    As a response to home rule the Ulster Volunteer Force did come first. They mobilised before the Irish Volunteers in the south.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,055 ✭✭✭JohnnyFlash


    I’d agree with rehousing to Rockall all the people who spends their days tediously arguing and multi-quoting about hypotheticals relating to Norn Iron and the national question.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    15-20 years
    You are making it sound like the militia came first, as opposed to them being a response, to a known issue with nationalist rebellions.

    It did come first! The militia was formed to oppose the Home Rule bill, there was no nationalist rebellion at that time or any time in the decades preceding it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,932 ✭✭✭Eggs For Dinner


    If there was a vote on it does the south of Ireland get to vote? How could the vote lose if that was the case.

    Because many, like myself, would not get involved in the debate one way or the other and quietly go to the polling station to keep things the way they are. Northern prejudices will never be solved and I don't want that poison down here


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,486 ✭✭✭✭Mr. CooL ICE


    Mod: This thread has been closed in After Hours and moved to the Politics Cafe as the topic is more suited for discussion in the PC.

    Please bear with the mods as they review the thread and decide whether to reopen it or keep it closed; it may not be gotten to immediately.

    Please also have a look at the Politics Cafe charter before posting


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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Reopened


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,732 ✭✭✭BarryD2


    It did come first! The militia was formed to oppose the Home Rule bill, there was no nationalist rebellion at that time or any time in the decades preceding it.

    Depends on how you define rebellion. There was an inexorable and necessary series of land reforms in the decades preceding. The Land League and withholding of rents was a rebellion, a relatively peaceful one that brought a good many of the landed estates to financial ruin. All part of a steady march towards Home Rule.
    Because many, like myself, would not get involved in the debate one way or the other and quietly go to the polling station to keep things the way they are. Northern prejudices will never be solved and I don't want that poison down here

    Inclined to agree but I think that poison can be diluted and removed if there was sufficient will. I think you're right though regarding any sort of vote in the Republic in our times, definitely not a given here that we'd accept the six counties. Would need a lot of debate north & south and broad agreement.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    20-30 years
    One of the most read stories on The Irish Times website at the moment is this:

    New light shed on prospect of Catholic majority in North
    Underpinning this is “a clear statistical trend towards a change in the religious minority-majority structure” of Northern Ireland and the “measurable trend towards a Catholic majority”.

    ‘Majority rule’
    In this context, the 2011 census was a “demographic watershed”. For the first time, the proportion of the population declaring themselves as Protestant or brought up Protestant fell below 50 per cent: “In a society characterised by debates over ‘majority rule’, where consent by a majority underpins the legitimacy of the state, the absence of a religious majority is an important symbolic marker,” the report states.

    There are other changes: only two of the North’s six counties, Antrim and Down, now have “significant Protestant majorities”, and only one – Lisburn – of its five official cities.

    “Within a decade, Belfast will almost certainly have a Catholic majority,” it states; in effect, a majority Protestant Northern Ireland “is now restricted to the suburban area surrounding Belfast.”

    This trend away from a Protestant majority “is likely to continue”. The main drivers of change are differing birth and death rates between the two communities, the effect of migration, and loss of affiliation, which is more pronounced in urban areas and in the east of Northern Ireland....

    Both Queen’s and Ulster University have a majority of students from a Catholic background; conversely, 63 per cent of students who study in Britain do not return to Northern Ireland, and the report cites other studies which have suggested their numbers are disproportionately Protestant.... “Catholic communities that are younger and poorer may experience restrictions on space and/or availability of resources . . . older Protestant communities, which are losing residents, may experience a sense of community decline, dereliction and abandonment.”

    The 'loss of affiliation' in urban areas is an interesting observation. I can see a definite loss of tradition and its enormous cultural repository in moving to large urban areas, but I'm not quite sure this translates into a loss of affiliation in political terms.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    10-15 years
    One of the most read stories on The Irish Times website at the moment is this:

    New light shed on prospect of Catholic majority in North



    The 'loss of affiliation' in urban areas is an interesting observation. I can see a definite loss of tradition and its enormous cultural repository in moving to large urban areas, but I'm not quite sure this translates into a loss of affiliation in political terms.

    Would the absent NI residents who have perhaps remained on mainland Britain still be able to vote in a UI referendum and what about people who have Irish citizenship through birth?It would be interesting to see if they would be eligible to vote in the Irish referendum-their numbers are growing I understand.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Poll makes the assumption that people in the Republic want this


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    10-15 years
    I read this interesting article on how people in Northern Ireland's views are changing.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-48702235


  • Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,655 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tokyo


    Mod: Moved from PC > CA. Please note that the CA charter now applies.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,647 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    Poll makes the assumption that people in the Republic want this

    The OP is well known to be in favour of the idea - as is his right to be fair.

    In reality, as many others have said and I have previously as well, it's a romanticised fantasy that would look very different in reality.

    The cost, the security and policing issues (it's not like the hardline unionists would shrug and say "oh well!"), the employment problem that would arise, the differences in local services, healthcare, taxation etc would be huge.

    But the biggest problem? Look at all the fundamental problems we have here now - housing, health, cost of living, endless waste, incompetence and corruption in politics etc.. How would we deal with the above issues, and why on earth would anyone want to join that.

    Best option as someone suggested really would be an independent state with EU membership. It's probably the best compromise.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,193 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »

    Best option as someone suggested really would be an independent state with EU membership. It's probably the best compromise.

    Won't work unless the EU step in as a replacement sugar-daddy - which I doubt they would. NI is a €10 billion a year black hole, where a third of the population work in the public service.

    The Assembly's only job is to dole out the subvention that mother England gift them every year - and they're too dysfunctional to even manage that. Now imagine them trying to raise their own revenues to fund the place.

    Best option (for us and them) is continued membership of the UK - the turkeys up there aren't going to vote for Christmas and any meaningful polls in the Republic(that include costs) have shown a large majority opposed to unification.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,647 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    Won't work unless the EU step in as a replacement sugar-daddy - which I doubt they would. NI is a €10 billion a year black hole, where a third of the population work in the public service.

    The Assembly's only job is to dole out the subvention that mother England gift them every year - and they're too dysfunctional to even manage that. Now imagine them trying to raise their own revenues to fund the place.

    Best option (for us and them) is continued membership of the UK - the turkeys up there aren't going to vote for Christmas and any meaningful polls in the Republic(that include costs) have shown a large majority opposed to unification.

    Fair points, but I can't see Westminster continuing to fund indefinitely - especially if Brexit does actually happen in the end. If nothing else the whole thing has exposed the serious divisions within the Conservatives. Who knows what Boris might do?

    The worst thing that could happen is that they decide to get rid of the headache and the Republic gets caught up in a romanticised nationalist fantasy encouraged by opportunistic local parties (to deflect from the issues at home) and agree to take it on.


  • Registered Users Posts: 66,745 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    Fair points, but I can't see Westminster continuing to fund indefinitely - especially if Brexit does actually happen in the end. If nothing else the whole thing has exposed the serious divisions within the Conservatives. Who knows what Boris might do?

    The worst thing that could happen is that they decide to get rid of the headache and the Republic gets caught up in a romanticised nationalist fantasy encouraged by opportunistic local parties (to deflect from the issues at home) and agree to take it on.

    I think it is out of Westminster's hands now. That is the gamechanger.

    You are looking at the slow break-up of the UK, with it being even Stevens on who will sever first - Scotland or northern Ireland.

    Westminster is powerless to stop it.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    10-15 years
    I’ve often wondered what all those civil servants up there actually do?
    Is it work related directly to NI or is it departmental stuff for mainland UK?
    Anyone know?


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    Fair points, but I can't see Westminster continuing to fund indefinitely - especially if Brexit does actually happen in the end. If nothing else the whole thing has exposed the serious divisions within the Conservatives. Who knows what Boris might do?

    The worst thing that could happen is that they decide to get rid of the headache and the Republic gets caught up in a romanticised nationalist fantasy encouraged by opportunistic local parties (to deflect from the issues at home) and agree to take it on.


    I've read some mad stuff in my time, but that's impressive. The Tories are going to voluntarily dump the North? Not withstanding the question of why would they kickstart the break up of the UK, how would they do it without the consent of a majority of voters in the North?


  • Registered Users Posts: 452 ✭✭Boxing.Fan


    20-30 years
    Won't work unless the EU step in as a replacement sugar-daddy - which I doubt they would. NI is a €10 billion a year black hole, where a third of the population work in the public service.

    The Assembly's only job is to dole out the subvention that mother England gift them every year - and they're too dysfunctional to even manage that. Now imagine them trying to raise their own revenues to fund the place.

    Best option (for us and them) is continued membership of the UK - the turkeys up there aren't going to vote for Christmas and any meaningful polls in the Republic(that include costs) have shown a large majority opposed to unification.

    Where can I see these meaningful polls you mentioned ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 66,745 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Boxing.Fan wrote: »
    Where can I see these meaningful polls you mentioned ?

    'Meaningful' = anything that aligns with my own feelings on the matter'


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,041 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Bambi wrote: »
    I've read some mad stuff in my time, but that's impressive. The Tories are going to voluntarily dump the North? Not withstanding the question of why would they kickstart the break up of the UK, how would they do it without the consent of a majority of voters in the North?

    The Tories don't give a toss for the North. Ditto for Labour, especially with Corbyn or someone like him set to become PM in the medium term. Less so now that Arlene has stuck her oar in with Brexit. It's a deficit for the UK that numerous PM's including Thatcher, Wilson and Churchill have wanted to be rid of. They just need an acceptable pretense to sell to the public for dumping it that can't be applied to Scotland.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,193 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    'Meaningful' = anything that aligns with my own feelings on the matter'

    Meaningful = a poll that includes the cost implications.

    I believe you've been provided with the relevant links previously Francie.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,193 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    I’ve often wondered what all those civil servants up there actually do?
    Is it work related directly to NI or is it departmental stuff for mainland UK?
    Anyone know?

    Layers of bureaucracy and paper pushers. I've worked up there for years and it's quite obvious that inefficiencies are built into the system to keep PS numbers high.

    I've gone to meetings that have had 8-9 people from the local authority present with 2 people contributing and 6 people sitting there doing "something".

    Makes the Republic's public service look dynamic, efficient and streamlined which is really saying something


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,732 ✭✭✭BarryD2


    .... how long do you think it will be before Ireland is reunified?

    God loves a trier. How many times can the same question be asked?

    How about building a few bridges up north, find common ground and agreement going forwards. Forget all this border poll nonsense.

    If we've learnt anything from recent referendums, it's that you have to bring the majority of the citizens with you.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,732 ✭✭✭BarryD2


    I’ve often wondered what all those civil servants up there actually do?
    Is it work related directly to NI or is it departmental stuff for mainland UK?
    Anyone know?

    Keeps the peace - part of the British strategy to end the troubles. Gives employment and gets people invested in the future peace. Simple and effective policy, even if it comes with a bill.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 525 ✭✭✭Jupiter Mulligan


    30-40 years

    I think it is out of Westminster's hands now. That is the gamechanger.

    You are looking at the slow break-up of the UK, with it being even Stevens on who will sever first - Scotland or northern Ireland.

    Westminster is powerless to stop it.

    That's grand.

    So NI and/or Scotland both vote to secede from the UK and to set themselves up as independent nations.

    Then, when that's all been sorted out, the Republic of Northern Ireland can approach the Republic of Ireland and ask us how much will it cost them to join up.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    10-15 years
    BarryD2 wrote: »
    Keeps the peace - part of the British strategy to end the troubles. Gives employment and gets people invested in the future peace. Simple and effective policy, even if it comes with a bill.

    Saw some figures recently too that the EU pumps about €6 billion(I think?) a year into NI for all kinds of projects, most of them seem to be as you say, peace projects and cross community efforts and the likes. Which is brilliant.
    Peace is big business up there it seems :)

    Arlene again only yesterday outright lying about the state of play in Brexit and blaming Dublin and saying nobody in NI supports the backstop despite all evidence to the contrary.

    The elecotorate up there are going to react harshly once brexit lands and it’ll be square on the DUP the hammer will fall.

    The extremes up there are the only voices you ever hear. There’s a far bigger and growing appetite among the middle ground for a UI than we’d think. Especially in light of the oncoming cliff edge of brexit.

    If it came to it I think it would be a slightly harder sell down here than it would be up there.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,732 ✭✭✭BarryD2


    The extremes up there are the only voices you ever hear. There’s a far bigger and growing appetite among the middle ground for a UI than we’d think. Especially in light of the oncoming cliff edge of brexit.

    If it came to it I think it would be a slightly harder sell down here than it would be up there.

    Yeah, but you can never underestimate the influence of tribal politics up north. Even people who are perfectly reasonable decent citizens, will tend one way or the other when push comes to shove.

    Which is why the only long term hope is to bring the communities closer together, find common ground and put aside things (for a generation or two) that divide, like language rights for example.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    10-15 years
    BarryD2 wrote: »
    Yeah, but you can never underestimate the influence of tribal politics up north. Even people who are perfectly reasonable decent citizens, will tend one way or the other when push comes to shove.

    Which is why the only long term hope is to bring the communities closer together, find common ground and put aside things (for a generation or two) that divide, like language rights for example.

    Well it’ll take the DUP to keep doing their thing, disillusioning and lying to their base for that to happen. And it is happening.

    Great to see the coming on of the alliance party as an alternative. Far more level headed by most accounts. More of them please on both sides.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 525 ✭✭✭Jupiter Mulligan


    30-40 years

    Great to see the coming on of the alliance party as an alternative. Far more level headed by most accounts. More of them please on both sides.

    Seemingly, the recent 'success' of Alliance was due, to a large extent, to voters from both sides of the sectarian divide voting tactically in constituencies where they knew that their preferred candidate couldn't win.


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