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Old Tool Restoration

  • 04-04-2016 10:21am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭


    No 7s are very scarce and good ones even more so. If you are going to look at one for sale bring a 1m steel rule and check the sole for straightness and wind. If its distorted as many Stanleys are they are not much use.. Generally Records are better and Faithfuls Anants and other copies are crap. Make sure there is a decent amount of blade left, a new Stanley replacement blade will cost you €20.
    Good luck
    http://www.adverts.ie/search/user-727864


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Records are what I have for my 4, 4 1/2 and 5 1/2; I don't particularly have any lust for the name of the thing :D (and I wound up with both the 4 and 4 1/2 because they came off ebay in a job lot; one or the other would have done me).
    Though I'd heard that faithfuls weren't bad for cheap tools, as opposed to say, silverlines.

    Basically, I have a shopping list - a jointer plane, a router plane and a filister plane (though I'm being specific with that one, it's a record 778 I was looking out for). I could find them on ebay fast enough if money was no object :D But are those things that show up in car boots here on a regularish basis and would I be better off looking there than ebay?


  • Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭imakebiodiesel


    Dont start me about silverline they really are rubbish.
    These was not much to choose between Record and Stanley up to about 1950, after that the quality of Stanley planes steadily declined because they tried to compete with cheap imports. Record just stayed much the same. Until the 90s when Irwin took it over. Today , despite their high price, Records range of planes are about on a par with Silverline, made in the far east , no quality control to speak of, horrible machining.
    If I was buying a 7 or 8 Id look for a Record with the earlier frog shape. You can look it up online, there are a couple of websites dedicated to Record plane history. A full length cast crucible steel blade would be a bonus.
    The 078 or 778 is definitely the best rebate plane going, the smaller ones like the Stanley 93 are really only good for cleaning up machine made rebates, not making them from scratch. The longer fence with two slide bars was a significant improvement over the 078 if you regularly use the fence. The old wooden rebate planes work really well and have the big advantage of a skewed blade, you can pick one up in good condition for buttons. The moving fillister types have depth stop, grain cutter and fence but they tend to be sought after by collectors because of the nice brass fittings.
    http://www.adverts.ie/search/user-727864


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,190 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    rather than start a new thread, I have two No 4 Stanley planes, one with wooden handles in original box, the other looks like bakelite handles, which I want to clean up. The base plates have a little paint and some rust on them.
    Whats the way to clean the baseplates without doing any damage.
    Thanks

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭imakebiodiesel


    I strip the plane down to its parts and clean each part. Paint splatter is best scraped off with a wooden stick sharpened like a chisel, a metal scraper will damage the enamel. Fine wire wool soaked in oil is good for cleaning rust, I would avoid trying to repaint the body, it never looks good.
    The sole and sides should be cleaned up by rubbing on a sheet of wet and dry sand paper taped to a sheet of glass. this will also show up any bumps or hollows. Clean the blade and cap iron with fine wire wool. The bakelite handles are fine and belong to that era. tthey are easy to clean with wire wool. You can get wooden replacements if you really dont like the bakelite.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,281 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Whats the way to clean the baseplates without doing any damage.
    Thanks
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYyV6IUpsYk


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,190 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    Thanks for the link, fascinating, gives a new meaning to pumping iron!

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Works well too, my 4 and 4 1/2 both came up very nicely from rust to shine that way.

    I'm going to try the vinegar & salt bath method on the "new" 5 1/2 this weekend first though, that seems to get pretty solid results. And white vinegar's cheap - asia market sell five litre cans of the stuff for €3.50 at the moment.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,764 ✭✭✭my3cents


    Sparks wrote: »
    Works well too, my 4 and 4 1/2 both came up very nicely from rust to shine that way.

    I'm going to try the vinegar & salt bath method on the "new" 5 1/2 this weekend first though, that seems to get pretty solid results. And white vinegar's cheap - asia market sell five litre cans of the stuff for €3.50 at the moment.

    All you need is the vingar the rest of the stuff is pointless and a waste of time effort and money. In fact I wouldn't even use that method on a plane because by the time you have trued all the machined faces up there aren't many places rust can be hiding.

    Still a great way of cleaning up rusty car parts.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Oh, there were places for rust to hide on this one. I think a good portion of the weight was vintage imported pre-WW2 english sawdust and spiders...

    382683.jpg

    Now all brushed down and disassembled and with the ferrous bits in a bath of vinegar until Sunday...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,764 ✭✭✭my3cents


    Thats quite a tidy looking plane the only serious rust I see there is on the blade and cap iron (chip breaker).

    I learnt a long time ago that you can spend far too much time playing with tools and not enough making things and I still spend far too much playing with tools.

    The blade only needs polishing on the back and sharpening and the cap iron only needs the edge behind the chip breaker truing up.

    I'd just run an air line at high pressure over to inside body to clean it up and true up the sole and sides. Obviously do the frog and its bearing points along with adjusting it while you are at it.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Yeah, but then I'd have to buy an air line.

    And an air compressor to go on the other end of it would be handy too I suppose.

    And if I was buying those, I might as well get a brad nailer to help put up the OSB sheeting to line the shed and why not an impact wrench while I was at it and next thing you know my bank account will be empty and my shed will be full and I still won't have a workbench to work at :D

    And there was some surface rust on... well, every surface actually, both exposed and in the various nooks and crannies under the frog and around the body. No pitting that I could see, but every screw's thread was gunked up with the stuff, and it generally looks a mess. I couldn't use it in that condition, it'd annoy me to death to have a tool that looked that mucky. I'll clean it up, true up the faces, sharpen the blade, make sure the cap iron's flat to the blade, scrape the remains of the finish off the handles and give them a coat of boiled linseed oil. It'll make for a nice relaxing sunday :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,190 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    For what it is worth,
    I have picked up the airline etc etc over the years in Lidl and then last year I bought a Bambi compressor in the UK which is very silent
    similar to this
    http://www.graphicair.co.uk/products/Bambi-BB15V-Silent-Compressor.html

    While it may not power a 90mm capacity nail gun, it does what I want and I can run it anytime of day or night and I can barely hear it.

    It is also very portable.

    The ones sold in Lidl and Aldi, being consumer items don't need a dBa rating, however I do know they will wake the dead.

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Calahonda, she who must be obeyed says you're to stop giving me ideas...


  • Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭imakebiodiesel


    That looks like a really nice no 5.1/2. If you post some picture of the frog with the blade and lever cap removed I can date it for you. I looks like late 1940s to late 1950s. If you clean up the upper part of the blade it will reveal the type of blade. It might have a blade that says "Best Crucible Cast Tungsten Steel". If so you are in luck. Record stopped making Cast Steel around 1950 and switched to a continuous steel process to reduce costs. Their cast steel blades are as good as any of the up market blades from Hock , Lie Neilsen or Quangsheng.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,190 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    Sparks wrote: »
    Calahonda, she who must be obeyed says you're to stop giving me ideas...

    :D Tell her the good thing about this multi annual piece-meal approach is that it is likely that you will get double up on certain items if you don't keep track: I ended up with two lots of the nozzles and tyre pressure gauge set.....:)

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    That looks like a really nice no 5.1/2.
    I have high hopes for it allright, and there's something oddly satisfying about getting a tool in that condition and cleaning it up.
    If you post some picture of the frog with the blade and lever cap removed I can date it for you.
    Here you go, after the imported vintage sawdust'n'spiderlegs were brushed off with a soft brush but before the vinegar bath that it's still bubbling away in.
    If you clean up the upper part of the blade it will reveal the type of blade. It might have a blade that says "Best Crucible Cast Tungsten Steel". If so you are in luck. Record stopped making Cast Steel around 1950 and switched to a continuous steel process to reduce costs. Their cast steel blades are as good as any of the up market blades from Hock , Lie Neilsen or Quangsheng.
    Couldn't see a darn thing on it through the rust, we'll have to hope the vinegar works as well as advertised, but I suspect I'm not that lucky :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,764 ✭✭✭my3cents


    If the blade really is that rusty I'm sure you know its useless if you can't polish all the pitted areas out of the flat side of it?


  • Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭imakebiodiesel


    The ogee shaped frog first appeared in 1959 so your plane is sometime after that but before 1969. Its unlikely to have a cast steel blade but Record blades, even after the changeover, were still superior to most other plane blades. Be careful of the vinegar treatment, Rinse the plane repeatedly and thoroughly with a mild alkali solution to make sure that no acid has crept under the enamel. As my3cents stated correctly its the bottom of the blade ( and the top of the frog) that has to be clean and flat if you are to avoid chatter when using the plane, although I have to agree if your going to clean up the plane you may as well clean all of it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭imakebiodiesel


    Pitted rust will make a blade useless but only down at the business end. which is normally covered by the lever cap and the cap iron, its rarely badly rusted there. Pitted rust at the top does not matter. if the worst comes to the worst you can buy a new blade. i would recommend a Stanley rather than a new Record for reasons stated earlier.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Well, the good news is that the business end of the blade has only very light surface rust and no pitting; the less great news is that the other end is, well, you can see how rusty it is in the photos. I took an early peek this evening and had a go with some 80 grit paper to see if I could find any markings on the other end, but apart from "Made in England", the other engraving is so faint as to be very hard to read. I think the line above "Made in England" starts with Tungsten and ends with Vanadium, but it's very very faint.

    Oh, and the effect of the vinegar and salt on the rust is still fun to see, even when you know what's coming :)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭imakebiodiesel


    Thats the later blade, not the cast steel one. Vanadium was added to the steel alloy to make it more hardenable. The original cast steel was difficult to harden and had to be quenched in cold water. This process resulted in some blades distorting and being rejected Along with the small batch size this made cast steel very expensive. The new steel was made in a larger continuous process that allowed the blades to be hardened by quenching in oil with fewer rejects.
    Interestingly Quansheng have revived the process of making water quench steel for their best plane irons.
    Nevertheless the later Record blade is still a very good blade and will be perfectly serviceable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    382824.jpg

    Didn't come out too badly. It could stand some shellac for the handle and tote, there's just some boiled linseed oil on it at the moment, and I've a weekend of blade sharpening ahead of me next weekend, but I'm happy enough with that for now.

    And I managed to find a 778 for decent money on ebay so that's not a terrible weekend all told.


  • Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭imakebiodiesel


    Lovely job, I think your level of restoration is just right, you often see tools on Ebay that have been buffed and polished and painted to look like new. I think that looks sad, the patina of 50 or 60 years scrubbed away. Part of the reason I like old tools is the idea that someone, probably a better woodworker that me, has used and cared for that tool and I might pass it on to a younger man( or woman) when Im finished with it.
    The other reason is they are wonderful tools made in a era when quality wasnt just a marketing term.
    I wouldnt bother with the shellac, an oil finish is much more pleasant to handle and will preserve the handles.


  • Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭imakebiodiesel


    This is the first time Ive uploaded an image to the forum so im not sure it will worK. Here is the cast steel blade by Record.
    These are worth keeping an eye out for in car boot sales, provided they are full length they are a great upgrade over the normal blade without breaking the bank.
    http://s871.photobucket.com/user/imakebiodiesel/media/stickers%20004_zpstbvxgerd.jpg.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭imakebiodiesel


    It worked! Here is another blade worth finding and most junk/antique dealers dont know what they are worth.
    Its the Stanley Sweetheart blade. Note the little heart logo and the initials SW.
    These were made between 1915 and 1935 in USA to In honour of James Hart, the chairman of Stanley tools who died in 1915. These are considered the best plane irons ever made by Stanley, and are certainly better than anything they make today.
    http://s871.photobucket.com/user/imakebiodiesel/media/stickers%20007_zpskgfdwvwp.jpg.html

    This tread has got a bit off topic of tool suppliers, what about a topic dedicated to restoring old tools?
    http://www.adverts.ie/search/user-727864


  • Registered Users Posts: 815 ✭✭✭Collibosher


    On the subject of plane restoration projects, I picked up this Record 0220 at a market for 3 euro a while back. It looks worse in the photo than it actually is, mostly light surface rust and dust.

    Will be my first project, so midway through the Paul Sellers video linked to above.


  • Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭imakebiodiesel


    The 220 is a good all round block plane and worth a bit of effort to make it usable. However we are getting even further off topic of tool suppliers so I think we should jump before we are pushed.
    I will open a new thread called "Old Tool Restoration" and if you would repost your picture to it we can get down to the nitty gritty.


  • Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭imakebiodiesel


    This thread is a continuation of a subject started in the Tool Suppliers thread, and is dedicated to restoring classic tools like Stanley and Record planes, cast steel chisels etc.
    modsnip
    You might be interested to see the planes that I use my self, Ironically I dont use Stanley or Record planes
    These are my 18th century infill planes,
    A Mathieson coffin shaped steel smoothing plane with rosewood infill and a Ward and Payne iron.
    And an early Speirs Panel plane with dovetailed steel body, beech infill and a Ward and Payne Iron.
    infill%20001_zpsuijpsaen.jpg

    I love the mass of these planes, once you set it in motion its weight will carry it through any knots or twisty grain. The heavy forged cast steel blades are nearly 6mm thick at the business end so chatter just dosent happen. The re is no adjustment on these planes you set the blade with a mallet or small hammer which sounds like a hassle but it isnt really, the last time I had to adjust the smoother was over 2 years ago.
    Collectors have made these planes very expensive if they are in mint condition but its still possible to pick up damaged or incomplete ones cheaply and restore then to their former glory.
    I have made new infill on both these planes and done some brazing to the screw adjustment of the smoother.
    snip


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,190 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    Perhaps Kadman might move the restoration posts from here to your new one so as the intel is not lost

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭imakebiodiesel


    Good Idea, Ill ask him.


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