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Am I the asshole?

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24

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    #32
    IJS84
    Registered Users Posts: 179 ✭✭IJS84


    neonsofa wrote: »
    Well if they were out then its fairly reasonable that they didn't see the calls. Sure they should have called you back once they did but they're a teenager. Can you not ask your parents what time is usually best for them to be home? Or for them to text you once your child is home so that you can call over then.

    I'm kind of confused about what the issue is, if you messed up with the payment then just apologise for the mix up and move on? Although it seems like you deliberately had the payments stopped on his 18th birthday, whether you forgot this or not. So at some level, did you expect to re assess the terms of this allowance at this point and have the payment conditional on this?

    If you feel the teen doesn't deserve the money based on his behaviour then communicate that to them and give them the chance to adapt their behaviour. Either the allowance is conditional or not, but the terms cant just change as you see fit without the teenager been given a chance to rectify it. If it is payable only when general respect is shown, as defined by you, then you kind of need to decide what this means to you, before you expect to see it from your child. Its not fair to change the goalposts really. And teenagers by their very nature will push boundaries, so you need to set them first. His previous parent didn't exactly demonstrate respect for him or others, so its a huge ask to just expect it from him now that he is 18. Its a learning curve. He is navigating adulthood and what this means, and that includes adult relationships and expectations that weren't previously placed on him. By your own admission, he hasnt had a great role model in the other parent so he may just need more support with learning how he should behave towards others.

    I have asked this of my own parents and hence tried arrange calling either in person or by phone around these times. The standing orders were set to expire the week of their 18th birthday and obviously slipped my own mind - I can only think at the time of setting this up I may have been thinking maybe they would a part time job if their own and may not need an allowance every week at this age.. As I said earlier this has now been sorted going forward. It's not really conditional, but as teens, as in my teens case do and they have been pushing boundaries etc especially during the lockdown - both my parents are high risk, and also care workers - unless anyone thinks it's unreasonable to ask someone help out around the house or keep in touch with a parent, I personally feel right to ask them to do this.


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    #33
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    IJS84 wrote: »
    ....
    Question is am I being the asshole here? My own mental health is touch and go at the best of times and this is really starting to get me going to dark places again.

    What has others done in a situation like this, surely there must be others there with similar issues

    If you are looking for fix, I don't think it exists. Some people just have difficult relationship's. Teens especially so.

    I don't think you are being unreasonable, but I also think the teen is just doing what some teens do.

    I find sometimes a break works well. Go have a neutral lunch together, a one to one, not with anyone else, just do some activity together, where existing issue are not to be discussed. A neutral zone. Something like that. A walk on the beach or such.


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    #34
    Day Lewin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,604 ✭✭✭Day Lewin


    I do NOT think you are being an @rsehole: I think this teenager has had a rough ride but that need not deliver a sense of entitlement!
    There are millions of people much younger than him (or her, whichever it is) working in factories, making those sneakers and teeshirts, etc.
    It is NOT unreasonable to expect a sensible exchange of values. Eighteen is old enough to sign contracts, get married - it is certainly old enough to take responsibility instead of getting free pocket-money!

    That being said, I can speak as a veteran parent who has survived several teenager-hoods:

    Treat him or her with dignity and respect: meet them for a good chat about this, with give and take.

    Show your love and care for them, listen to what they say: respond with kindness.

    Maintain your own values, they are old enough to get a REAL JOB if they want spending power:
    -- there is no such thing as a free lunch - and you're not asking them to go down a coal-mine!

    I can see that the times have been turbulent - and that you were not there when some of the roughest times were happening -
    and your parents have been real heroes.
    But generosity is never wasted. Hold on to your hat, and navigate this one carefully: it is always better to save a relationship than to save face or score a point.

    Anyhow that's the benefit of my own lengthy experience.


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    #35
    neonsofa
    Registered Users Posts: 5,476 ✭✭✭neonsofa


    IJS84 wrote: »
    I have asked this of my own parents and hence tried arrange calling either in person or by phone around these times. The standing orders were set to expire the week of their 18th birthday and obviously slipped my own mind - I can only think at the time of setting this up I may have been thinking maybe they would a part time job if their own and may not need an allowance every week at this age.. As I said earlier this has now been sorted going forward. It's not really conditional, but as teens, as in my teens case do and they have been pushing boundaries etc especially during the lockdown - both my parents are high risk, and also care workers - unless anyone thinks it's unreasonable to ask someone help out around the house or keep in touch with a parent, I personally feel right to ask them to do this.

    Its not unreasonable. But you had the chat, laid out the terms of the allowance (chores). Then stopped the payment (by default), and decided chores werent sufficient anymore, but its also dependent on regular communication with you. Has he stopped doing the chores you asked of him? Its not unreasonable to expect certain chores in exchange for the allowance but if the allowance is conditional, it is also reasonable for the teenager to expect to be informed of these conditions from the outset. Not have the allowance removed on a whim because he didn't match your expectations in terms of communication when this was never set out in the agreement.


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    #36
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,378 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    Why should a young adult have to have it spelled out to him in an agreement to be there to meet with his Dad when agreed, to answer his phone when he calls or texts him or return the call if he's missed it? That's a ridiculous amount of namby-pambying.

    OP, you are not being an asshole. I get that the lad has been through an awful lot in recent months and it's one thing to ease him gently into adulthood. It's grand for yourself and his grandparents do that but he needs to understand that the rest of the world will not. I'd second the advice of no longer paying the bill directly and the allowance should be dependant of doing his share of work around the house and returning calls and keeping in contact with you. I'd also second the advice given above for meeting up neutrally to try and rebuild the relationship. He might be lagging behind a bit behaviorly and emotionally due to what he's been through and don't be surprised if he doesn't want to meet up but don't give up trying. If you can, pop round unexpectedly to your folks from time to time and bring him out with you then. I've heard other parents say talking in the car is a good way to break down barriers.


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    #37
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Yeah, but right now, with the fallout of the pandemic, youth unemployment is at very high levels. This is a bad time for a young person to be looking for part-time work - there'll be a lot of competition for few opportunities, and lots of people who wouldn't normally consider the kind of jobs that schoolkids do will be applying for them.

    So it would be good if this kid could get a job and they should certainly be encouraged to, but I don't think you could reasonably penalise them for not succeeding.

    There are jobs out there. But I think its unlikely someone not willing to do basic chores where they live will go out and get them.

    The context however was why at 18 why do they not have a job. The answer is because they are still at school But thats not an excuse for not doing chores or a small jobs here than there.


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    #38
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    beauf wrote: »
    I don't get the lie bit. Thats an assumption on our part, maybe true, we don't know.

    The OP turned it around so it looked like the non-transfer of the money was their child's fault for not answering their parent's calls during the week.

    I'd call that a lie. At the very least, its deceptive, and manipulative.


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    #39
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,378 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    The OP turned it around so it looked like the non-transfer of the money was their child's fault for not answering their parent's calls during the week.

    I'd call that a lie. At the very least, its deceptive, and manipulative.

    I'd call it a harsh lesson in respect that he needed to learn.


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    #40
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    So in your view, it okay for a parent to lie and deceive their child about something that was their own mistake, but then give them another lecture demanding respect from them?

    Thanks, but I wouldn't be taking any parenting advice from you.

    OP acted like a total asshole.

    I guarantee if this child who has been passed from Billy to Jack, not living with either parent, already getting treatment for their mental health from Jigsaw, didn't feel like a massive burden to their family BEFORE their 18th birthday, I guarantee they feel like one now.


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    #41
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    The OP turned it around so it looked like the non-transfer of the money was their child's fault for not answering their parent's calls during the week.

    I'd call that a lie. At the very least, its deceptive, and manipulative.

    Basically you can't be sure either, you're just assuming.

    Not that it matters. The reality is the only reason the teen responded was because the payment failed. So the lesson there is that worked. Relying on the teen to act maturely didn't.


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    #42
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    So in your view, it okay for a parent to lie and deceive their child about something that was their own mistake, but then give them another lecture demanding respect from them?

    Thanks, but I wouldn't be taking any parenting advice from you.

    OP acted like a total asshole.

    I guarantee if this child who has been passed from Billy to Jack, not living with either parent, already getting treatment for their mental health from Jigsaw, didn't feel like a massive burden to their family BEFORE their 18th birthday, I guarantee they feel like one now.

    The teen was acting like an moron before the payment failed. The meeting, the lecture happened also before the payment failed.

    Your blaming the past on things that hadnt happened yet.


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    #43
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,378 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    So in your view, it okay for a parent to lie and deceive their child about something that was their own mistake, but then give them another lecture demanding respect from them?

    Thanks, but I wouldn't be taking any parenting advice from you.

    In my view, an 18 year old not answering his phone or returning the calls of his Father, who pays for his phone and provides him with funds is bring incredibly disrespectful and entightled. The fact that the funds stopped by chance is neither here nor there - I'd have been stopping them anyway until I saw a sharp change in attitude. How well he was able to ring his Dad when his funds dried up? A sharp lesson in consequence was required and was accidentally provided. Allowing that behaviour to continue un checked would be doing the lad no favours at all. And he is NOT a child. He can vote, sign contracts make all legal decisions pertaining to himself for himself. Of he breaks the law he would be treated as the adult he now is. He needs to start growing up now. Answering his phone and doing household chores is a very gentle way of being introduced to adulthood. That's all that's being asked of him for now. It's not asking a lot.


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    #44
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    neonsofa wrote: »
    Well if they were out then its fairly reasonable that they didn't see the calls. Sure they should have called you back once they did but they're a teenager. ...

    I'm kind of confused about what the issue is,...

    It a mobile phone. So being out isn't much of an excuse for a teenager. Even when out socializing they are glued to their phones.

    But people not replying is not limited to teens. Some adults are very poor at replying to calls ever. Kids and teens having selective hearing, is very common.

    But other the OP being stressed out by the whole thing, I wouldn't be losing sleep over it. Of all the things happening here, this incident is very minor. Focus on the bigger picture and try to decompress.


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    #45
    neonsofa
    Registered Users Posts: 5,476 ✭✭✭neonsofa


    Sardonicat wrote: »
    Why should a young adult have to have it spelled out to him in an agreement to be there to meet with his Dad when agreed, to answer his phone when he calls or texts him or return the call if he's missed it? That's a ridiculous amount of namby-pambying.

    .

    It shouldn't even be part of an agreement for his allowance imo, but OP has made it so. OP has conflated the payment with the level of communication expected, nobody else, not even the child. So if the payment is conditional on a certain level of communication, which you could equally argue is namby pambying, then OP should make that clear from the outset. Imo OP should be more concerned with why the child does not want to engage, rather than how much the child deserves for his engagement, or punishment for not engaging.

    The allowance was initially based on chores. Op hasn't clarified if the child stopped doing the chores. But you cant on one hand say that you want someone to behave like an adult, and then on the other remove payment because the person didn't communicate with you enough, if he wants his child to behave like an adult then OP should discuss the communication issue as an issue in itself like adults, not hold an allowance ransom until the child phones him back. If the child didn't do the chores either, then thats another story. If the OP wants the child to learn and show basic respect then its a two way street imo.


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    #46
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Sardonicat wrote: »
    In my view, an 18 year old not answering his phone or returning the calls of his Father, who pays for his phone and provides him with funds is bring incredibly disrespectful and entightled.....

    It not nice, but not uncommon. As a parent I would be the bigger person here.


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    #47
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    neonsofa wrote: »
    ... OP has conflated the payment with the level of communication expected, nobody else, not even the child. So if the payment is conditional on a certain level of communication,...

    They didn't though. Thats a strawman invention, (at best interpretation) by people on this thread.


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    #48
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    beauf wrote: »
    The teen was acting like an moron before the payment failed. The meeting, the lecture happened also before the payment failed.

    Your blaming the past on things that hadnt happened yet.

    The teen was acting like a teen before the payment failed.

    The parent acted like a moron, by turning their banking "mistake" around, and trying to make it about some condition on respect that their child supposedly did not meet (not answering calls). As someone else mentioned "moving the goalposts".

    Totally unfair and an asshole thing to do. As I said, manipulative.

    The OP asked, "am I the asshole" and in my opinion, in the scenario they outlined, yes they are. Be honest and admit the mistake about the bank. Admit it had nothing to do with disrespect or not answering calls.

    And no way does a bank transfer have to take 5 days. I can transfer money via phone banking app 24 hours a day to any other bank and it is in the account the next day. If this went down on a Thursday evening no reason the money couldn't have been sent then and there so they had it on Friday.

    If the OP wants a good relationship with their child going forward, they are not going the right way about it.


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    #49
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    The teen overreacted. As they do. The parent is overreacting to that.

    Give everyone space and reboot.


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    #50
    neonsofa
    Registered Users Posts: 5,476 ✭✭✭neonsofa


    beauf wrote: »
    They didn't though. Thats a strawman invention, (at best interpretation) by people on this thread.

    If they didn't then what's the issue?
    OP allegedly messed up with the payments. Child phoned and told him this. Payments are now reinstated under the terms laid out previously- ie chores?


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    #51
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Sardonicat wrote: »
    In my view, an 18 year old not answering his phone or returning the calls of his Father, who pays for his phone and provides him with funds is bring incredibly disrespectful and entightled. The fact that the funds stopped by chance is neither here nor there - I'd have been stopping them anyway until I saw a sharp change in attitude. How well he was able to ring his Dad when his funds dried up? A sharp lesson in consequence was required and was accidentally provided. Allowing that behaviour to continue un checked would be doing the lad no favours at all. And he is NOT a child. He can vote, sign contracts make all legal decisions pertaining to himself for himself. Of he breaks the law he would be treated as the adult he now is. He needs to start growing up now. Answering his phone and doing household chores is a very gentle way of being introduced to adulthood. That's all that's being asked of him for now. It's not asking a lot.


    Nice sidestep. You never answered what I actually asked, so I'll take it then, that you don't see an issue with a parent lying to and deceiving their child, and manipulating the situation. Fair enough.


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    #52
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,378 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    beauf wrote: »
    It not nice, but not uncommon. As a parent I would be the bigger person here.

    Ah, I know it's pretty run of the mill. And I get he's probably lagging behind in the maturity stakes so to some extent it's to be expected but he couldn't let it continue. Short, sharp, shock and hopefully the wake up call taken on board. He can't just expect his Dad to supply him with funds but refuse to engage with him like an invisible benefactor. It would be good if they could plan an activity or event they can do together and re-establish their relationship.


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    #53
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    If all that is said is true, this now 18 year old will not be your average 18 year old. Physical and mental abuse have taken their toil.

    To sit then down at 18 and say "hey, time to grow up pal and pay your way" is the wrong method when dealing with a child that will have security issues.

    You need to realise that after years of this treatment, your behind in this. Love, support and yes, a degree of funding is required.

    Most parents would consider the end of college to be the time to have that chat I think anyway.


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    #54
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The teen was acting like a teen before the payment failed.

    The parent acted like a moron, by turning their banking "mistake" around, and trying to make it about some condition on respect that their child supposedly did not meet (not answering calls). As someone else mentioned "moving the goalposts".

    Totally unfair and an asshole thing to do. As I said, manipulative.

    The OP asked, "am I the asshole" and in my opinion, in the scenario they outlined, yes they are. Be honest and admit the mistake about the bank. Admit it had nothing to do with disrespect or not answering calls.

    And no way does a bank transfer have to take 5 days. I can transfer money via phone banking app 24 hours a day to any other bank and it is in the account the next day. If this went down on a Thursday evening no reason the money couldn't have been sent then and there so they had it on Friday.

    If the OP wants a good relationship with their child going forward, they are not going the right way about it.

    Teen act like morons. No argument there.

    I have never got a 24 hr transfer in a bank to another's account. It always take a few days, more at the weekend. It looks like its there but its pending till it clears. No idea why in an electronic system that happens. But it does.

    The whole payment think is blown out of context. If you sit on your butt and rely on handouts you can demand nothing. If you want to financially independent, earn it yourself.


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    #55
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    If all that is said is true, this now 18 year old will not be your average 18 year old. Physical and mental abuse have taken their toil.

    To sit then down at 18 and say "hey, time to grow up pal and pay your way" is the wrong method when dealing with a child that will have security issues.

    You need to realise that after years of this treatment, your behind in this. Love, support and yes, a degree of funding is required.

    Most parents would consider the end of college to be the time to have that chat I think anyway.

    If they are going to college...


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    #56
    neonsofa
    Registered Users Posts: 5,476 ✭✭✭neonsofa


    beauf wrote: »
    Teen act like morons. No argument there.

    I have never got a 24 hr transfer in a bank to another's account. It always take a few days, more at the weekend. It looks like its there but its pending till it clears. No idea why in an electronic system that happens. But it does.

    The whole payment think is blown out of context. If you sit on your butt and rely on handouts you can demand nothing. If you want to financially independent, earn it yourself.


    I agree with your point, i am not saying you're wrong on what you're saying, but the OP gave the child that speech and advised him on the chores expected for the "handouts" and as far as i can see, the child didn't stop doing those chores. If OP isn't happy to provide an allowance then thats fine, he is well within his rights to stop giving it, but he had the agreement that he would provide it based on a number of conditions, and i have asked OP if the child has failed to hold up his end of that deal and op hasn't clarified, but they haven't mentioned the child not doing the chores. Only the lack of communication. So the child was asked to do something in return for payment and until we are told otherwise, it looks like he has done what he was asked. That isn't exactly expecting handouts for nothing. Whether we think its easy money, or below what the child *should* be doing for the money is kind of irrelevant because OP was the one to propose those terms of payment.


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    #57
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    beauf wrote: »
    Teen act like morons. No argument there.

    I have never got a 24 hr transfer in a bank to another's account. It always take a few days, more at the weekend. It looks like its there but its pending till it clears. No idea why in an electronic system that happens. But it does.

    The whole payment think is blown out of context. If you sit on your butt and rely on handouts you can demand nothing. If you want to financially independent, earn it yourself.
    As a complete side issue, you should consider changing banks. With most banks, if transferring to another account in the same bank, it's instant. Others, overnight.

    The longest I've ever had was 2 days, and that was transferring from UB to BOI, who are crap.

    I disagree the payment thing here is not blown out of context, as i can only imagine how upset the teen was when checking for funds (probably for the weekend) and nothing in their account. A week after this so called lecture on responsibilities delivered promptly on their 18th birthday. And then lied too that it was their fault their was no money because of some trumped up excuse about disrespect for not answering calls.

    Anyway, I've said my piece, I hope the OP considers all points of view and goes away with something useful.

    Even if its not to lie to their child again to save their own face.


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    #58
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,378 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Nice sidestep. You never answered what I actually asked, so I'll take it then, that you don't see an issue with a parent lying to and deceiving their child, and manipulating the situation. Fair enough.

    And you seem to think that allowing your now adult son to treat you as an invisible and obligated benefactor is appropriate parenting. He is not a child. Continuing to treat him like one will create someone who is incapable of being a happy, adjusted adult.


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    #59
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    neonsofa wrote: »
    I agree with your point, i am not saying you're wrong on what you're saying, but the OP gave the child that speech and advised him on the chores expected for the "handouts" and as far as i can see, the child didn't stop doing those chores. If OP isn't happy to provide an allowance then thats fine, he is well within his rights to stop giving it, but he had the agreement that he would provide it based on a number of conditions, and i have asked OP if the child has failed to hold up his end of that deal and op hasn't clarified, but they haven't mentioned the child not doing the chores. Only the lack of communication. So the child was asked to do something in return for payment and until we are told otherwise, it looks like he has done what he was asked. That isn't exactly expecting handouts for nothing. Whether we think its easy money, or below what the child *should* be doing for the money is kind of irrelevant because OP was the one to propose those terms of payment.

    The OP has never said there is any connection between chores or communications and the payment. That's a figment of the this threads imagination. The timeline doesn't support this hypothesis either.

    All this supposition is based off that.


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    #60
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Deleted User wrote: »
    As a complete side issue, you should consider changing banks. With most banks, if transferring to another account in the same bank, it's instant. Others, overnight.

    The longest I've ever had was 2 days, and that was transferring from UB to BOI, who are crap.

    The point is. Its not instant. Payments fail. That's life. you find out why, before throwing the toys out of the pram. The teens was put out because he now had to contact the person he was ignoring.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    I disagree the payment thing here is not blown out of context, as i can only imagine how upset the teen was when checking for funds (probably for the weekend) and nothing in their account. A week after this so called lecture on responsibilities delivered promptly on their 18th birthday. And then lied too that it was their fault their was no money because of some trumped up excuse about disrespect for not answering calls....

    We seem to have no problem on this thread in inventing fictions. Glass houses and all that.

    If they want to avoid disappointment, they know the solution.


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    #61
    neonsofa
    Registered Users Posts: 5,476 ✭✭✭neonsofa


    beauf wrote: »
    The OP has never said there is any connection between chores or communications and the payment. That's a figment of the this threads imagination. The timeline doesn't support this hypothesis either.

    All this supposition is based off that.

    If they are not connected then OP confused the matter by saying it would now be "matched with household chores".

    IJS84 wrote: »
    Bit Fast forward again and the August weekend turns 18, so we had sit the now young adult down and explain that money he was being given each week, will now be matched with some household chores they can do and help participate with as they are an adult now and they now need to chip in as it shows respect to those they live with etc , and if they want the same respect, it comes with a responsibility to show respect to the other household members also.

    The timeline was that the child turned 18 and therefore an adult, so his payment would now be "matched" with certain terms. Which is fair enough, I'm not claiming otherwise.


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