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Padraig Pearse

123457»

Comments

  • #182
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    I was very bemused to see an article by Ruth Dudley Edwards on Wikileaks.

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/ruth-dudley-edwards/ruth-dudley-edwards-confidentiality-no-longer-exists-2666654.html

    Some quotes stand out
    The job of US diplomats -- like that of diplomats everywhere -- is to try to understand the country they're serving in,

    She nailed that alright and does not seem to understand Pearse at all.
    Julian Assange, the founder of WikiLeaks, seems to hate the US in a lefty kind of way and revelled in being for a time its Public Enemy Number One,

    She writes for controversy and her own noterity


    Diplomats get their information as journalists do: they read, listen and talk to people in the know. There was almost nothing in the Ireland cables that couldn't have been written by well-connected hacks.

    Except where the available evidence points in one direction -she takes a leap in the dark for an unsupportable conclusion not backed by evidence.

    And this one
    Like hacks, diplomats vary in quality and judgement, so cables to the State Department contain their fair share of errors as well as insights.

    It all really could be written about her writtings on Patrick Pearse.

    I would really like to see a stripped down biography of Pearse (and other Irish figures) based on the available evidence. I will bet we would have some slimmed down volumes.

    We know the bare facts but Pearse does not seem to have been properly researched by anyone & the "insights" we get are not supportable.

    In the almost 100 years since Pearse died -no one has managed to speak to or get the opinions of his family . That information gets lost in time.


  • #183
    premierlass
    Registered Users Posts: 156 ✭✭premierlass


    Ruth Dudley Edwards wrote:
    Diplomats get their information as journalists do: they read, listen and talk to people in the know. There was almost nothing in the Ireland cables that couldn't have been written by well-connected hacks.

    Just because "well-connected hacks" may know something doesn't mean it's not regarded as intelligence by a foreign government. Intelligence-gathering is one of a diplomat's official roles.
    In the almost 100 years since Pearse died -no one has managed to speak to or get the opinions of his family . That information gets lost in time.

    Strange. I was intrigued when I came into contact with someone I thought to be connected with James Pearse's first family, as she claimed to be descended from the Pearses. As it turned out, she was just an attention-seeker and pretending to be Patrick Pearse's grand-daughter. (There was a long thread about her at the now-defunct dublinforums.com.) I was threatened by her boyfriend on a board ten years ago. He claimed to have been in the IRA in the north, someone told me later that he had been in the Parachute Regiment.

    Sorry, that went way off-topic.


  • #184
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    premierlass wrote: »
    Just because "well-connected hacks" may know something doesn't mean it's not regarded as intelligence by a foreign government. Intelligence-gathering is one of a diplomat's official roles.

    I woz having a go at Ruth Dudley Edwards on her Patrick Pearse articles and bio :pac:


    Strange. I was intrigued when I came into contact with someone .........as she claimed to be descended from the Pearses. As it turned out, she was just an attention-seeker and pretending to be Patrick Pearse's grand-daughter. he had been in the Parachute Regiment.

    Sorry, that went way off-topic.

    Funnily enough when looking up stuff for the thread I came accross the same thing in various forums. Either she was very busy or there were a few of them.

    My interest in the Pearse family is that that I was an altar boy on one of the altars they made.It is very fine. So I had looked up the Pearse churches and sculptures/monumental works by James & Willie Pearse (who was very talented) as places I might like to visit.

    It was coincidence that the thread came up.

    The history info on Pearse and his family didn't match what I knew of the families monumental & ecclesiastical work.

    Your woman could have probably gotten away with claiming to have been a grand niece or great grand niece if she gotten the history right.


  • #185
    premierlass
    Registered Users Posts: 156 ✭✭premierlass


    CDfm wrote: »
    I woz having a go at Ruth Dudley Edwards on her Patrick Pearse articles and bio :pac:

    I know, just thought I'd have a general dig at her.
    CDfm wrote: »
    Funnily enough when looking up stuff for the thread I came accross the same thing in various forums. Either she was very busy or there were a few of them.

    She's the only one I know of. Her name is Rose Tempany, but she likes to go by "Rose Pearse". She's now annoying the Doctor Who fandom.
    CDfm wrote: »
    My interest in the Pearse family is that that I was an altar boy on one of the altars they made.It is very fine. So I had looked up the Pearse churches and sculptures/monumental works by James & Willie Pearse (who was very talented) as places I might like to visit.

    They did good work. This is a monument from their workshop in Glasnevin Cemetery.

    IMG_5243.jpg

    [IMG]http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo39/GlendaLough/Glasnevin/IMG_5240.jpg width=50%[/IMG]


  • #186
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    premierlass wrote: »
    I was attacking RDE not you, sorry I wasn't clearer about that.

    yer fine RDE probably needs her own thread :pac:

    She's the only one I know of. Her name is Rose Tempany, but she likes to go by "Rose Pearse". She's now annoying the Doctor Who fandom.

    LOL :D

    They did good work. This is a monument from their workshop in Glasnevin Cemetery.


    IMG_5240.jpg%20width=50%

    It would be interesting to know if any of them are still in the business in the UK or Ireland.

    We dont see enough made of their work.


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  • #187
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    vinpaul wrote: »
    Hi CDfm
    Being browsing Pearse Story. You have uncovered a great deal of material, some of which I am familiar with but there are other bits and pieces that I must spend some time studying. Well done in your efforts
    Most interesting. .

    We know that Mary Emily was a nurse and that a lot of nurses were involved in 1916 but we know nothing of her.

    Take for example,Nurse Elisabeth O'Farrell held Patrick Pearse in high regard was their any connection via Mary Emily?

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70356693&postcount=8


  • #188
    vinpaul
    Registered Users Posts: 363 ✭✭vinpaul


    Emily Pearse was born 31 Dec 1864. She was baptised on Jan 24th 1865 in the Church of St Peter in the parish of Peter in Dublin. Her parents were Emily Suzanne Fox and James Pearse. James Pearse's wife died in 1876 and he later married Margaret Brady in 1877, who was to become mother to Margaret, Padraig. Willie and Mary Brigid Pearse.
    Emily married Alfred Ignatius Mc Gloughlin in 1884 and had 3 children. When her parents' marriage collapsed in or around 1900 the children were sent to different homes. Her 2 daughters Emily (15) and Margaret (13) were recorded at St Joseph's Orphanage in Mountjoy Street (See 1901 Census). She herself was in Rosnakill in Co Donegal (see 1901 Census).She worked as a mid wife.
    In 1911 Emily was recorded in Carrowkeel, Co Donegal. This time she was joined by her daughter Maggie now aged 25 and husband James Mc Garvey. (see 1911 Census)
    She stayed there till 1930 before returning to Dublin and living at Rathfarnham, in the Hermitage with her daughter Maggie and husband James Mc Garvey. It is considered likely that James Mc Garvey was a gardener at St Enda's for many years.She died in 1944.
    As to any reference to her having any involvement with the Easter Rising, I can find no evidence as she seemed to have been in Donegal thoughout all those years from 1900 to 1930.

    Heading to this thread is incorrect. Emily Pearse married Alfred Ignatius Mc Gloughlin. Heading should read Emily Mc Gloughlin (nee Pearse)


  • #189
    Milk & Honey
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,950 ✭✭✭Milk & Honey


    CDfm wrote: »

    We also know that he had qualified as a Barrister - but we do not know if he was attached to any Chambers - young barristers often are subsidised by their families. Is it reasonable that he could have pursued a career at Law at that time.

    .


    He was not attached to any chambers. There were then and are not still any chambers in Dublin. Pearse did not practise to any great extent. I believe that he only appeared in 1 case. Many people then and for decades afterwards were able to obtain a call to the bar simultaneously with studying for their university degree. many never practised at all and some only in a limited way.
    I would think that the photograph in robes is earlier than 1914. A barrister is not supposed to allow his photograph to be taken in robes. The only exception is the day of his call to the bar and again on call to the inner bar. I would think that photo was taken at his call.


  • #190
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    From memory he appeared in connection with an an Claidheamh Soluis of which he was editor. That would put it around 1901.

    As a boxing fan -do we know if he went to fights or boxing clubs.


  • #191
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    CDfm wrote: »
    I woz having a go at Ruth Dudley Edwards on her Patrick Pearse articles and bio :pac:


    ............

    Have you read the Bio?


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  • #192
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Nodin wrote: »
    Have you read the Bio?

    I was going to buy it and had read bits at the library over time & checked it out at Easons and read around a 100/120 pages and browsed a bit thru the rest one afternoon.

    Specifically, I was looking for a bit more info on Willie & James Pearses work -so I was looking for a good quality bio in terms of the basics to lead me on to other items.

    Maybe some people like her style but it is not for me and I am a bit of a historic crime fan too and thats what she does.

    http://www.ruthdudleyedwards.co.uk/nonfiction/pearse-guardian.html

    Except PP wasn't a criminal and I didnt like the style and subsequent articles of hers in newspapers have just annoyed me because the sources do not support her conclusions.

    Now I havent found a Pearse bio that I have liked and I suspect the reason is that the flaws of the original Pearse bio's have been carried thru.

    Its a pity really , because I wanted to like what I was reading and expected to want to buy the book.

    I am reminded a bit of Angela McCourts reactions to her sons' books as lies.
    Even Angela McCourt had challenged her son's recollections before her death in 1981. Frank and his brother Malachy had persuaded her to attend A Couple of Blackguards, their stand-up memoirs, in a Manhattan theatre. Angela interrupted the tearful renditions of their childhood, standing up and shouting at the stage: "It didn't happen that way. It's all a pack of lies."

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/culture-obituaries/books-obituaries/5867097/Frank-McCourt.html

    Or this recollection by her friend

    I knew Angela; did Frank McCourt? - Angela McCourt, mother of author Frank McCourt

    by Margaret O'Brien Steinfels


    Who then is the real Angela McCourt? The passive mother of Angela's Ashes or Mrs. McCourt, the formidable lifesaver who tussled with a lively two-year old while I took refuge at the New York Public Library? Have I created a fictive grandmother?
    Or has McCourt created a fictive mother?

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1252/is_n19_v124/ai_20227028/

    So if something is touted as scholarly I expect scholarly. For me, I wanted a good bio and know the difference between what is and is not because I have a good knowledge of the subject albeit a bit rusty.

    My comments and how I look at it are how I assess things and really it is up to RDE fans to argue her merits.

    She is a good and entertaining writer but that does not make her book a history book.


  • #193
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    CDfm wrote: »
    I was going to buy it and had read bits at the library over time & checked it out at Easons and read around a 100/120 pages and browsed a bit thru the rest one afternoon.

    Specifically, I was looking for a bit more info on Willie & James Pearses work -so I was looking for a good quality bio in terms of the basics to lead me on to other items.

    Maybe some people like her style but it is not for me and I am a bit of a historic crime fan too and thats what she does.

    http://www.ruthdudleyedwards.co.uk/nonfiction/pearse-guardian.html

    Except PP wasn't a criminal and I didnt like the style and subsequent articles of hers in newspapers have just annoyed me because the sources do not support her conclusions.

    Now I havent found a Pearse bio that I have liked and I suspect the reason is that the flaws of the original Pearse bio's have been carried thru.

    Its a pity really , because I wanted to like what I was reading and expected to want to buy the book.

    I am reminded a bit of Angela McCourts reactions to her sons' books as lies.


    Or this recollection by her friend


    So if something is touted as scholarly I expect scholarly. For me, I wanted a good bio and know the difference between what is and is not because I have a good knowledge of the subject albeit a bit rusty.

    My comments and how I look at it are how I assess things and really it is up to RDE fans to argue her merits.

    She is a good and entertaining writer but that does not make her book a history book.

    I read it some 20 or more years ago, and I have to say I don't remember it as being as hostile or undermining as either her current attitude or even that review would suggest.


  • #194
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Nodin wrote: »
    I read it some 20 or more years ago, and I have to say I don't remember it as being as hostile or undermining as either her current attitude or even that review would suggest.

    Many people have no problem with it as a book just not a history book.

    I am not saying she is a Kitty Kelley ( as in kitty versus the Reagans and Oprah http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20114996,00.html )

    What I am saying is if you want to know about Pearse and have an interest in him look elsewhere based on factual accuracies.

    I also think if a person criticises a book they should give reasons more than "I didnt like the book" as that may also mean you didnt like your hero portrayed accurately. That is not the case here and I hope I have shown why.


  • #195
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Today in 1916 , Pearse was executed.

    Earlier in the year some memorabilia showed up in a Dublin Auction House concerning his estate after his death.


    The Irish Times - Monday, March 26, 2012
    Papers reveal bank role in Pearse life policy

    1224313893999_1.jpg?ts=1336058483

    Sun Life Assurance's life policy on Pádraig Pearse, who signed promissory notes and died leaving an unpaid bank debt



    MICHAEL PARSONS

    DUBLIN BANKERS cashed in Pádraig Pearse’s life insurance policy just weeks after he was executed in 1916 and used the money to redeem a series of promissory notes.

    Previously unseen documents have come to light at Whyte’s auctioneers which show that the central figure in the Easter Rising – who read the Proclamation of the Republic at the GPO – died owing a large debt to Hibernian Bank.

    Pearse had borrowed the money, the equivalent of about €100,000 today, to set up St Enda’s school and handed over his life insurance policy and the deeds of the family home as security.

    He solemnly promised to repay the bank by signing promissory notes. Following the crushing of the rebellion, Pearse, aged 36, was court-martialled by the British authorities and executed by firing squad on May 3rd, 1916.

    Although Ireland was in turmoil, the bank did not lose sight of its priorities and was preoccupied by his unpaid promissory notes and overdraft. Within days, Hibernian Bank wrote to the Sun Life Assurance Society in London demanding a payout on Pearse’s life policy.

    But Sun Life executives in the City of London’s Threadneedle Street had been monitoring the unrest in Dublin and spotted that “the Life Assured was identical with the PH Pearse recently shot after trial by Court Martial”.

    The British insurance company initially refused to pay on the grounds that if an assured person is “killed in a duel, or feloniously destroys himself, or dies by the hand of the common hangman, or public executioner, the Policy is void”.

    However, Hibernian Bank did not let the matter rest and sought advice from its solicitors. The bank warned of legal proceedings and threatened to halt the sale of Sun Life products through its network of branches in Ireland.

    Following a frantic and tetchy exchange of letters, Sun Life “desirous of dealing with the case in a liberal spirit” eventually caved in and paid the bank £329.16s.4d under an agreement “not to allow any proceeds to benefit the Estate of the Life Assured”.

    The policy had been taken out by Pearse, who was unmarried, to benefit his mother Margaret (a widow) and his sisters Margaret Mary and Mary Brighid. But the deal cooked up between the bankers, insurance executives and lawyers ensured they did not receive a penny.

    The file of correspondence, found in the estate papers of a solicitor, and expected to sell for at least €2,000, will go under the hammer at Whyte’s auction of historical memorabilia in Dublin on April 21st.

    Auctioneer Ian Whyte said: “This was a squalid dispute between two financial institutions over the estate of the dead patriot, who, before his death, was a valued customer of both.”

    The records show that the payout only cleared half of Pearse’s debt to the bank. Hibernian Bank was taken over by Bank of Ireland in 1958.

    Two years later the Pearse family home, Cullenswood House in Ranelagh, was sold, and some of the proceeds were used to pay off the balance of the outstanding promissory notes owed by Pádraig Pearse – 44 years after he “died for Ireland”.

    The Sun Life Assurance Society was absorbed into an insurance conglomerate today known as Axa insurance.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0326/1224313893999.html

    A racier version is available here


    http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Bank-and-insurance-company-fought-over-Padraig-Pearse-after-his-execution-144196135.html


  • #196
    dave2pvd
    Registered Users Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭dave2pvd


    Classic editorial comment there.

    While I know it's almost mandatory to hate on financial institutions, I don't think the insurer or the bank acted unusually.
    Although Ireland was in turmoil, the bank did not lose sight of its priorities and was preoccupied by his unpaid promissory notes and overdraft.

    Turmoil or no turmoil, the bank were above-board in their dealings. There seems to be an inference that their priorities were somehow misaligned? Due to 'preoccupation' with the debt? Bizarre.
    The policy had been taken out by Pearse, who was unmarried, to benefit his mother Margaret (a widow) and his sisters Margaret Mary and Mary Brighid. But the deal cooked up between the bankers, insurance executives and lawyers ensured they did not receive a penny.

    "cooked up"? Really?

    To me the only surprise is that the insurer paid out. That public executioner clause would seem to make voiding the policy a real option. Perhaps he should have purchased a different policy?

    Regardless of IT jingoism, today is a day that commemorates an Irish hero.


  • #197
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    dave2pvd wrote: »
    Classic editorial comment there.

    While I know it's almost mandatory to hate on financial institutions, I don't think the insurer or the bank acted unusually.

    It is PP's anniversary and I thought it was going unnoticed.

    I have no doubt they were acting legally & had little discretion so the commentary ain't great but the material referenced is new so a bit of a bonus for completist's.


  • #198
    dave2pvd
    Registered Users Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭dave2pvd


    CDfm wrote: »
    It is PP's anniversary and I thought it was going unnoticed.

    I have no doubt they were acting legally & had little discretion so the commentary ain't great but the material referenced is new so a bit of a bonus for completist's.

    Thanks for posting it. Very interesting, and new-to-me info.

    I guess I was unable to get past the article's tone.


  • #199
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    dave2pvd wrote: »
    Thanks for posting it. Very interesting, and new-to-me info.

    I guess I was unable to get past the article's tone.

    No prob's.

    His two sisters disagreed on things and there was litigation and AFAIR there was some litigation over the publishing of Mary Briget's biography..

    Both his mother (d 1932) and his sister Margaret served in the Oireachtas, Margaret until her death in 1968.

    St Enda's kept going til 1935 and Margaret lived there until her death.They had sought funds from DeValera to help fund the school.

    I just wonder if this was just a normal family situation as the two sisters disagreed and litigated. The younger on Mary Bridget passed away in the late 40's . The most reasonable explanation is that Margaret the surviving sister tidied up everyone's affairs. Here is something from the National Library showing she was fairly good at paperwork
    Three letters from Margaret Pearse, sister of Patrick Pearse, and former TD and Senator, to Mr. [R.W.] Lyon of Talbot Press, first from St. Enda's, Rathfarnham, third from Linden Convalescent Home, both acknowledging cheques for royalties, the second on headed paper of Blue White Productions [amateur drama charity group], asking Lyons to deal with a request (possibly a copyright matter),

    1943-1964.




    http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000275236

    So at the time of Margaret's death everything was probably in order.


  • #200
    Fembot
    Registered Users Posts: 4 ✭Fembot


    Hi VinPaul, This is an unrelated message really but this thread came up when I was googling J & C McGloughlin Ltd. Im doing some family research and apparently my grandfather worked for the company, I guess in the 20s or 30s. I don't suppose employment records were kept for that far back?


  • #201
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Fembot wrote: »
    Hi VinPaul, This is an unrelated message really but this thread came up when I was googling J & C McGloughlin Ltd. Im doing some family research and apparently my grandfather worked for the company, I guess in the 20s or 30s. I don't suppose employment records were kept for that far back?

    Have you looked here

    http://www.dia.ie/architects/view/3873

    According to the link below their "1894-1989: operational and accounting records "are in the National Archives

    http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/nra/searches/subjectView.asp?ID=B16158

    You might get help from the geneology forum

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1288


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  • #202
    Fembot
    Registered Users Posts: 4 ✭Fembot


    Thanks, that is very helpful.

    Fembot


  • #203
    Little_Korean
    Registered Users Posts: 35 ✭Little_Korean


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    Denerick puts it well.

    Though he was not a man of battle and war, he ordered that any looters would be shot as it was not right to rob from others, but once looters were found, he did not have the heart to allow them to be shot.

    When the garrison had moved to Moore Street and they held out against the British there, it was the witnessing of the murders of a barkeeper, his wife and 2 children by British Army machine gun fire as they waved a white flag to attempt to leave their home that caused Pearse to finally call for surrender, showing he was a compassionate man, who did not want to see innocent civilians die!

    Strangely squeamish for a man attempting an armed uprising, it must be said. Not a bad trait in a man by any stretch, but perhaps better as a speech maker than a revolutionary.


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